NBA 2017: Playoffs? Playoffs?!

[sperry]

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

People keep saying this, but it's not true. The stats say it's not true, the view on the respective talent levels before this season say it's not true. RW only missed one game this year and played limited minutes in two others and the Thunder were 3-0 in those games. Incredibly small sample size, granted, but it's what we have. There's a narrative at work here. Earlier in the year when Harden was running away with the MVP race statistically and based on team success people had them neck and neck because Westbrook is much more entertaining/less irritating than Harden, and the arbitrary triple double thing. Now that there is a statistical argument to be made for Westbrook people act like that puts it to bed. And I've always believed that if anyone is ever close to Harden they'll win because Harden's style pisses so many more people off than it entertains.

So I think RW will win this going away, and Harden will be in the unique spot of losing one MVP because efficiency metrics + team success > traditional secondary stats + 'carrying' team perception, and then lost another because efficiency metrics + team success < traditional secondary stats + 'carrying' team perception. I think the only way Harden ever wins is if there's no one else with an argument or narrative. But the idea that Harden's surrounding talent just blows Westbrook's away is revisionist. Do people even remember pre-season expectations? After Howard left and none of the names went to Houston and they hired a 'fad' coach retread and many were saying the shine was off Morey's Apple and the Rockets needed to blow it up and rebuild? Pretty much any pre-season ranking you can find had the Thunder well ahead of the Rockets, and yet now they're just too loaded?

Here's Simmons making some sense: https://theringer.com/bill-simmons-2017-nba-mvp-james-harden-russell-westbrook-kawhi-leonard-4f617e8d5df5

Remember when we came out of the 2016 playoffs raving about how much we liked Steven Adams, Enes Kanter, and Andre Roberson? Why didn’t they get any better? Why wasn’t Adams as devastating in OKC as the Capela-Nene-Harrell trio was for Houston? Why wasn’t Oladipo BETTER on a much better team? Why did they dump Ersan Ilyasova after only three games, and why wasn’t it a bigger deal when he thrived in Philly and Atlanta? Why such a wasted rookie year for Domantas Sabonis? Everyone acts like Russ is playing with the Washington Generals — he has two top-three lottery picks and three other lottery picks in their playing rotation. Kanter and Oladipo have near-max deals. Adams has a nine-figure deal coming. Ilyasova scored 15 a night on Philadelphia. Those guys sucked? If a superstar guarantees you 45 wins, then Westbrook dragged them to … 47 wins? What?

It's worth noting that RW this season has ball hogged more than any player in history by a significant degree. He misses 14 shots a game. His usage rate is the highest in history, higher than Kobe or Iverson or, well, anyone else ever. And the base stat that seemingly separates he and Harden...the magical double digit rebounding as opposed to 8.3 or w/e is both attributable to volume and by (weird) design where RW almost never closes out on shooters but instead kicks back to pick up the defensive board. Like DeAndre Jordan has contested more 3-point shots this year than Russell Westbrook, believe it or not.

But people really don't enj

oy Harden, so this stuff is ignored and suddenly putting up very similar stats with greater efficiency for a team that wins more games and turning a bunch of career journeymen into an all time offence loses out to 'but triple double' and 'willpower' w/e that is. Here's Simmons again:

Meanwhile, the Rockets were pegged as a fringe playoff team with only one All-Star and even lower expectations than OKC. And we didn’t know what to expect with Harden. After he finished second in the 2015 MVP voting, the Dwightbola virus turned him into a smoke-and-mirrors superstar last season. Why didn’t it seem like he cared? Was he turning into a glorified DH? This year, a rejuvenated Harden grabbed the point guard reins (why doesn’t he get more credit for switching positions, by the way?), made a bunch of role players better and transformed the Rockets into the league’s second-best offense. And not just that — they finished with one of the TEN BEST REGULAR-SEASON OFFENSES OF All TIME. (Here, look.)

 

Simmons narrative is such fucking uninformed garbage. Roberson, is and always has been an absolutely atrocious offensive player. For some reason, he seems to step his game up on that front in the playoffs, which is nice. But he is a horrible offensive player.

 

As for why Adams and Kanter don't look better this year:  the lane tends to get clogged when you take a historically great player and shooter off of a team and replace them wtih guys who can't shoot. You don't have to close out on the perimiter against the Thunder, which means you can double down in the post when the big guys get the ball.

 

Victor Oladipo may be the best non Harden/Westbrook perimeter player on either team, but Gordon, Ariza, Williams and Beverly are all better than the next options on the Thunder.  Nene is a better player than Kanter when healthy. Clint Capela has emerged as a better player than Adams (although I think Adams has been suffering a nagging back injury this year, which has hampered him). The Rockets supporting cast is SO much better than the Thunder.  Russ may still be able to will the team to wins, as when he plays his best games the team can beat anyone.  Taj is a better player than Ryan Anderson, but Anderson fits what the Rockets are doing a lot better.

 

The Rockets were underestimated in the preseason because no one knew Clint Capela was going to take a leap, and Eric Gordon was going to stay healthy and play well. Harden makes players better, but the narrative that Westbrook doesn't make players better is fucking laughable. The Thunder have one of the most offensively inept groups we've seen in  years. There is no one on the roster who should be getting more shots.

 

 

As for statistics, traditional or advanced, they don't give Harden a clear advantage.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Yea, I don't care what the Rockets were supposed to be a the beginning of the year, I care about what they are. They have a handful of shooters and hit the most treys per game. Their role player are significantly better than OKC's, hand down. I find it silly that people argue against Westbrook as the MVP. He averaged a fucking triple-double and led his team to a 6th seed. A team mind you, that doesn't really have a 2nd option offensively. It's also laughable how people are downplaying Russel averaging a triple-double. Almost like it's not a big deal and an historic feat, when it is a big deal. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

8 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Yea, I don't care what the Rockets were supposed to be a the beginning of the year, I care about what they are. They have a handful of shooters and hit the most treys per game. Their role player are significantly better than OKC's, hand down. I find it silly that people argue against Westbrook as the MVP. He averaged a fucking triple-double and led his team to a 6th seed. A team mind you, that doesn't really have a 2nd option offensively. It's also laughable how people are downplaying Russel averaging a triple-double. Almost like it's not a big deal and an historic feat, when it is a big deal. 

It's not as big a deal as it was in years past...

http://www.nba.com/article/2017/03/05/79th-triple-double-sets-nba-single-season-record

 

Record amount of triple doubles this season. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

10 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

It's not as big a deal as it was in years past...

http://www.nba.com/article/2017/03/05/79th-triple-double-sets-nba-single-season-record

 

Record amount of triple doubles this season. 

Yea, that would make sense. Russel had 42 of them, but that's not abig deal either, Huh? I mean answer this. When do you think we'll see someone average a triple-double for a season again? You think it's gonna be the new norm? I don't think so.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Yea, that would make sense. Russel had 42 of them, but that's not abig deal either, Huh? I mean answer this. When do you think we'll see someone average a triple-double for a season again? You think it's gonna be the new norm? I don't think so.

It's impressive, yes. What's not so impressive in my estimation is that if he were on a better team, he wouldn't have a chance to post up these inflated numbers. He's not a great team player. He's a bit of a ball-hog at the end of the day. What was he yesterday, 6 for 23 or something like that? He's a hell of a player on an individual level, but I'm not sold that he's all that valuable when you consider the total team concept. 

[Jaime L]

2 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

 I find it silly that people argue against Westbrook as the MVP. 

Russ had a legit MVP season. The main argument isn't against Russ, it's for Harden. It's easy to quantify what makes Russ so good - speed and power - he explodes through people in a visceral force-of-nature way. But what about Harden? 

People hate to admit this, myself included, but Harden is fucking phenomenal. Did you watch game 1? I have no idea how you stop this guy without fouling him. (Granted not having Steven Adams or Enes Kanter trying to stay with him is a start but I digress.) He's so smooth and effortless out there, he's like liquid. It's like trying to get in the way of the T-1000. And even if you load up against him he's become such a gifted passer that he'll shred you for it. It's just a question if Beverly and Ariza and Anderson and Gordon make the easy 3's he creates for them. 

In my lifetime, the NBA's never had so many guard/wing players who are functionally unstoppable - Lebron, Curry, Durant, Harden, Westbrook. But Harden's the only one who it's not obvious within 5 seconds why he's so good. So it doesn't seem like he should compare. But he was top 2 MVP two years ago and will be again this year. 

Probably deserves more credit than he's been getting even in this discussion which is 90% focused on Russ. 

[briantw]

31 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

Russ had a legit MVP season. The main argument isn't against Russ, it's for Harden. It's easy to quantify what makes Russ so good - speed and power - he explodes through people in a visceral force-of-nature way. But what about Harden? 

People hate to admit this, myself included, but Harden is fucking phenomenal. Did you watch game 1? I have no idea how you stop this guy without fouling him. (Granted not having Steven Adams or Enes Kanter trying to stay with him is a start but I digress.) He's so smooth and effortless out there, he's like liquid. It's like trying to get in the way of the T-1000. And even if you load up against him he's become such a gifted passer that he'll shred you for it. It's just a question if Beverly and Ariza and Anderson and Gordon make the easy 3's he creates for them. 

In my lifetime, the NBA's never had so many guard/wing players who are functionally unstoppable - Lebron, Curry, Durant, Harden, Westbrook. But Harden's the only one who it's not obvious within 5 seconds why he's so good. So it doesn't seem like he should compare. But he was top 2 MVP two years ago and will be again this year. 

Probably deserves more credit than he's been getting even in this discussion which is 90% focused on Russ. 

Personally I think Harden would have ran away with the award had Houston finished first or second in the West, or if they had at least been within a game or two of either Golden State or San Antonio.  Finishing a distant third pretty much did in his chance at the MVP imo.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Watch Westbrook and Harden split the vote in two and Leonard grabs it.

[James Arryn]

4 hours ago, sperry said:

 

1) Simmons narrative is such fucking uninformed garbage. Roberson, is and always has been an absolutely atrocious offensive player. For some reason, he seems to step his game up on that front in the playoffs, which is nice. But he is a horrible offensive player.

 

As for why Adams and Kanter don't look better this year:  the lane tends to get clogged when you take a historically great player and shooter off of a team and replace them wtih guys who can't shoot. You don't have to close out on the perimiter against the Thunder, which means you can double down in the post when the big guys get the ball.

 

Victor Oladipo may be the best non Harden/Westbrook perimeter player on either team, but Gordon, Ariza, Williams and Beverly are all better than the next options on the Thunder.  Nene is a better player than Kanter when healthy. Clint Capela has emerged as a better player than Adams (although I think Adams has been suffering a nagging back injury this year, which has hampered him). The Rockets supporting cast is SO much better than the Thunder.  Russ may still be able to will the team to wins, as when he plays his best games the team can beat anyone.  Taj is a better player than Ryan Anderson, but Anderson fits what the Rockets are doing a lot better.

 

The Rockets were underestimated in the preseason because no one knew Clint Capela was going to take a leap, and Eric Gordon was going to stay healthy and play well. Harden makes players better, but the narrative that Westbrook doesn't make players better is fucking laughable. The Thunder have one of the most offensively inept groups we've seen in  years. There is no one on the roster who should be getting more shots.

 

 

As for statistics, traditional or advanced, they don't give Harden a clear advantage.

1) I don't think the argument is exclusive to offence, but I'll push thus if only because I generally don't credit Simmons as particularly adept as a basketball analyst. I just think he presents the obvious argument well here.

2) Well, maybe the phantom of Durant is partially to blame, or maybe a teammate setting usage records might be kinda sorta at fault too? Generally speaking doubles happen to everyone once the ball gets into the post; post deficient teams actually suffer more by virtue of other teams not spending too much time denying post entry. That said you can still scrape on the p&r even elbow deep, which the Thunder have the capacity for doing. Anyways, I'm not arguing that RW doesn't make them better, but rather A) does he make more of a difference to winning than Harden and B ) Are triple doubles particularly useful as an argument for that contribution.

3) Olapido is clearly the best supporting wing either has, so that's the starters, kinda a big deal. But let's step back here, and look at contributions. Kanter's PER (23.7) is miles ahead of anyone Harden has, and if you're still grooving on daddy's numbers he's second in the league in double doubles. Adams 6.4 win shares is also better than anyone on the Rockets. So, Olapido, Kanter's and Adams aside...? And subjective ideas like 'worse player/better fit' might or might not be arguable, but in that a point guard is most responsible for getting the ball to people as it fits them best, this has all kinds of implications even if true.

4) Well, this might be chicken egg, no? People didn't expect players to play as well as they have because...? Because they'd not played that well. People expected Thunder to play better because...? Because they had played that well. So when we're evaluating which player had a greater impact on their team this season, how well players have played relative to expectations is pretty germane, no? 

5) I actually agree with you that the stats no longer give Harden a clear edge. I stated as much. I said what has happened is that when they did people created a false equivalence between them so now that the numbers have become closer people act like it's gone from close to clearly RW. And a lot of that is aesthetics or this idea that Harden is ~ cheating, which is false. But to be clear, there is IMO a legit argument to be made for RW as MVP, it's just not the argument that most are making with arbitrariness like triple doubles or subjective so like 'will'.

[James Arryn]

4 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Yea, I don't care what the Rockets were supposed to be a the beginning of the year, I care about what they are. They have a handful of shooters and hit the most treys per game. Their role player are significantly better than OKC's, hand down. I find it silly that people argue against Westbrook as the MVP. He averaged a fucking triple-double and led his team to a 6th seed. A team mind you, that doesn't really have a 2nd option offensively. It's also laughable how people are downplaying Russel averaging a triple-double. Almost like it's not a big deal and an historic feat, when it is a big deal. 

Chicken egg, in terms of Rockets. In terms of triple double, a hypothetical;

A) 20 pts 14 assists 7 rebounds

B ) 20 pts 10 assists 10 rebounds.

Which one is more likely to contribute to winning? Why does value pass some magic portal once you go from 9 rebounds to 10? Not to mention, as previously stated, RW gets 9 defensive boards a game, which is by design, where the coach wants him to prioritize starting the break over challenging outside shooting. 

And this is before we even get into efficiency. To be clear, Westbrook misses 14 shots a game. Harden takes just under 19.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

30 minutes ago, Triskan said:

I don't know whether this happens or not but I honestly think I'd take Leonard over either of them which is saying something 'cause it's not like they aren't both great.

Oh yeah, if I'm starting a team right now I take Leonard over those 2. Hell, I might take Leonard over anyone.

[Relic]

The only thing that could make this Harden vs Westbrook debate any lamer and more tedious is if we were forced to wait two months to find out who won. 

 

[Calibandar]

Couple of things from the first few games that stood out:

• Giannis the Greek Freak is a monster. So amazing to watch him at work, what a massive talent with so many gifts. I still don't think the Rapors lose this series ( and it would cost me money if they did) but it may be true that the Bucks have the best player in the series. It's such a shame Jabari Parker got injured because these guys are really good, and Giannis is the man.
• Portland gave Golden State an excellent game. I had my thoughts in advance that we might see a few  good games between these two. The problem for Portland is clearly Nurkic' injury, which limits their options to just Lillard and McCollum. These two guys are constantly on fire but without season revelation Nurkic, they have zero inside presence.
• Pacers also made it very hard for the Cavs. They lost the second game tonight but there is not much in it between these two. Paul George looking good, but LeBron bigger still.

[Calibandar]

On 4/15/2017 at 11:44 PM, Jaime L said:

PG13 is a playoff stud. A ) Have to think the Celtics watched that game super jealous he's not in green right now and B ) Have no idea why he'd possibly re-sign in Indiana. Nowhere near enough talent. 

Was thinking the same thing. Celtics have missed out and are now very short on options.

Meanwhile, George is playing well but on a team that is otherwise lacking in options. I don't see how he is still there in November.

On 4/17/2017 at 0:29 AM, Triskan said:

Golden State really put the defensive clamps on down the stretch after Portland made it interesting for about 3.5 quarters.  It just underscores how hopeless it is for Portland.  They got a great performance from CJ and a pretty good one from Lillard and still end up losing by 12.  They just have so little other help.

Nurkic back for game 2 would help.

 

18 hours ago, Relic said:

Preach - 

 

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=19178271

Stephen A Smith in full on idiot mode.

 

11 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Yea, I don't care what the Rockets were supposed to be a the beginning of the year, I care about what they are. They have a handful of shooters and hit the most treys per game. Their role player are significantly better than OKC's, hand down. l. 

I'm a Bill Simmons fan but I think his estimation of the Rockets and Thunder strength is entirely incorrect:

 

13 hours ago, James Arryn said:

 

Here's Simmons making some sense: https://theringer.com/bill-simmons-2017-nba-mvp-james-harden-russell-westbrook-kawhi-leonard-4f617e8d5df5

Remember when we came out of the 2016 playoffs raving about how much we liked Steven Adams, Enes Kanter, and Andre Roberson? Why didn’t they get any better? Why wasn’t Adams as devastating in OKC as the Capela-Nene-Harrell trio was for Houston? Why wasn’t Oladipo BETTER on a much better team? Why did they dump Ersan Ilyasova after only three games, and why wasn’t it a bigger deal when he thrived in Philly and Atlanta? Why such a wasted rookie year for Domantas Sabonis? Everyone acts like Russ is playing with the Washington Generals — he has two top-three lottery picks and three other lottery picks in their playing rotation. Kanter and Oladipo have near-max deals. Adams has a nine-figure deal coming. Ilyasova scored 15 a night on Philadelphia. Those guys sucked? If a superstar guarantees you 45 wins, then Westbrook dragged them to … 47 wins? What?

It's worth noting that RW this season has ball hogged more than any player in history by a significant degree. He misses 14 shots a game. His usage rate is the highest in history, higher than Kobe or Iverson or, well, anyone else ever. And the base stat that seemingly separates he and Harden...the magical double digit rebounding as opposed to 8.3 or w/e is both attributable to volume and by (weird) design where RW almost never closes out on shooters but instead kicks back to pick up the defensive board. Like DeAndre Jordan has contested more 3-point shots this year than Russell Westbrook, believe it or not.

But people really don't enjoy Harden, so this stuff is ignored and suddenly putting up very similar stats with greater efficiency for a team that wins more games and turning a bunch of career journeymen into an all time offence loses out to 'but triple double' and 'willpower' w/e that is. Here's Simmons again:

Meanwhile, the Rockets were pegged as a fringe playoff team with only one All-Star and even lower expectations than OKC. And we didn’t know what to expect with Harden. After he finished second in the 2015 MVP voting, the Dwightbola virus turned him into a smoke-and-mirrors superstar last season. Why didn’t it seem like he cared? Was he turning into a glorified DH? This year, a rejuvenated Harden grabbed the point guard reins (why doesn’t he get more credit for switching positions, by the way?), made a bunch of role players better and transformed the Rockets into the league’s second-best offense. And not just that — they finished with one of the TEN BEST REGULAR-SEASON OFFENSES OF All TIME. (Here, look.)

I would say to that:

1) Yes Westbrook is indeed a ball hog. He'd probably still be that if he had better team mates. Harden is indeed a more willing passer. Westbrook compensates this deficiency with other qualities however.

2) We came raving out of the 2016 playoff saying Adams was excellent. We never raved about Roberson who's an atrocious brick layer. We thought Kanter was an ok piece and that has continued to the case. Why wasn't Oladipo better on OKC? Because he simply isn't a great player and I maintain my position that people want him to be more than he is. Why was Elyasova dumped? Cause he sucked. Sabonis was given game after game to prove himself and the reality is, this guy just isn't great. And let's face it, OKC would have to have lucked out incredibly for that to be the case. Why does Simmons say the failure of Sabonis is Westbrook's fault? This guy was the no. 11 pick, why the earth shattering expectations? He'll be lucky to be a starter on any NBA team.

3) Opposed to all of that, Houston has a healthy Gordon and Anderson, which has not been the case for years. Capela has emerged, Harrell plays well, Lou Williams is there, Sam Dekker has been useful. Ariza and Beverly are healthy. I think there is great truth to the idea that Harden makes this team click and it works because of him. But let's not pretend this is not a better cast than what OKC has.

 

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Calibandar said:

Stephen A Smith in full on idiot mode.

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. Other than HOW he says it, nothing he says is wrong. 

[Calibandar]

Well the way he says it is what I was referring to as completely idiotic.

That said, Phil wants Carmelo out. Private conversations have not been enough to sway Carmelo. He's now publicly trying to get Carmelo to consent to a departure. I can see why he's doing this.

He has the no trade clause but the Knicks desperately want him out so they can rebuild. Carmelo turns 33 next month.

Jackson's points are of course valid; if he ever wants to win anything, he should allow himself to be traded to a good team, and the latest reports suggest that Carmelo is interested and will think about in the next few months. I think it will happen, and Jackson will get what he wants here, Stephen A can scream all day long.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. Other than HOW he says it, nothing he says is wrong. 

SAS has always been a cartoon character, but what he says about basketball is mostly spot on. 

15 hours ago, James Arryn said:

People keep saying this, but it's not true. The stats say it's not true, the view on the respective talent levels before this season say it's not true. RW only missed one game this year and played limited minutes in two others and the Thunder were 3-0 in those games. Incredibly small sample size, granted, but it's what we have. There's a narrative at work here. Earlier in the year when Harden was running away with the MVP race statistically and based on team success people had them neck and neck because Westbrook is much more entertaining/less irritating than Harden, and the arbitrary triple double thing. Now that there is a statistical argument to be made for Westbrook people act like that puts it to bed. And I've always believed that if anyone is ever close to Harden they'll win because Harden's style pisses so many more people off than it entertains.

So I think RW will win this going away, and Harden will be in the unique spot of losing one MVP because efficiency metrics + team success > traditional secondary stats + 'carrying' team perception, and then lost another because efficiency metrics + team success < traditional secondary stats + 'carrying' team perception. I think the only way Harden ever wins is if there's no one else with an argument or narrative. But the idea that Harden's surrounding talent just blows Westbrook's away is revisionist. Do people even remember pre-season expectations? After Howard left and none of the names went to Houston and they hired a 'fad' coach retread and many were saying the shine was off Morey's Apple and the Rockets needed to blow it up and rebuild? Pretty much any pre-season ranking you can find had the Thunder well ahead of the Rockets, and yet now they're just too loaded?

Here's Simmons making some sense: https://theringer.com/bill-simmons-2017-nba-mvp-james-harden-russell-westbrook-kawhi-leonard-4f617e8d5df5

Remember when we came out of the 2016 playoffs raving about how much we liked Steven Adams, Enes Kanter, and Andre Roberson? Why didn’t they get any better? Why wasn’t Adams as devastating in OKC as the Capela-Nene-Harrell trio was for Houston? Why wasn’t Oladipo BETTER on a much better team? Why did they dump Ersan Ilyasova after only three games, and why wasn’t it a bigger deal when he thrived in Philly and Atlanta? Why such a wasted rookie year for Domantas Sabonis? Everyone acts like Russ is playing with the Washington Generals — he has two top-three lottery picks and three other lottery picks in their playing rotation. Kanter and Oladipo have near-max deals. Adams has a nine-figure deal coming. Ilyasova scored 15 a night on Philadelphia. Those guys sucked? If a superstar guarantees you 45 wins, then Westbrook dragged them to … 47 wins? What?

It's worth noting that RW this season has ball hogged more than any player in history by a significant degree. He misses 14 shots a game. His usage rate is the highest in history, higher than Kobe or Iverson or, well, anyone else ever. And the base stat that seemingly separates he and Harden...the magical double digit rebounding as opposed to 8.3 or w/e is both attributable to volume and by (weird) design where RW almost never closes out on shooters but instead kicks back to pick up the defensive board. Like DeAndre Jordan has contested more 3-point shots this year than Russell Westbrook, believe it or not.

But people really don't enjoy Harden, so this stuff is ignored and suddenly putting up very similar stats with greater efficiency for a team that wins more games and turning a bunch of career journeymen into an all time offence loses out to 'but triple double' and 'willpower' w/e that is. Here's Simmons again:

Meanwhile, the Rockets were pegged as a fringe playoff team with only one All-Star and even lower expectations than OKC. And we didn’t know what to expect with Harden. After he finished second in the 2015 MVP voting, the Dwightbola virus turned him into a smoke-and-mirrors superstar last season. Why didn’t it seem like he cared? Was he turning into a glorified DH? This year, a rejuvenated Harden grabbed the point guard reins (why doesn’t he get more credit for switching positions, by the way?), made a bunch of role players better and transformed the Rockets into the league’s second-best offense. And not just that — they finished with one of the TEN BEST REGULAR-SEASON OFFENSES OF All TIME. (Here, look.)

Well said, though I'd still vote for Russ over Harden.

10 hours ago, Jaime L said:

I have no idea how you stop this guy without fouling him.

The reason people hate Harden is because most of time he is the one committing the foul or flopping to get the call and the refs always bail him out. 

[sperry]

9 hours ago, James Arryn said:

1) I don't think the argument is exclusive to offence, but I'll push thus if only because I generally don't credit Simmons as particularly adept as a basketball analyst. I just think he presents the obvious argument well here.

2) Well, maybe the phantom of Durant is partially to blame, or maybe a teammate setting usage records might be kinda sorta at fault too? Generally speaking doubles happen to everyone once the ball gets into the post; post deficient teams actually suffer more by virtue of other teams not spending too much time denying post entry. That said you can still scrape on the p&r even elbow deep, which the Thunder have the capacity for doing. Anyways, I'm not arguing that RW doesn't make them better, but rather A) does he make more of a difference to winning than Harden and B ) Are triple doubles particularly useful as an argument for that contribution.

3) Olapido is clearly the best supporting wing either has, so that's the starters, kinda a big deal. But let's step back here, and look at contributions. Kanter's PER (23.7) is miles ahead of anyone Harden has, and if you're still grooving on daddy's numbers he's second in the league in double doubles. Adams 6.4 win shares is also better than anyone on the Rockets. So, Olapido, Kanter's and Adams aside...? And subjective ideas like 'worse player/better fit' might or might not be arguable, but in that a point guard is most responsible for getting the ball to people as it fits them best, this has all kinds of implications even if true.

4) Well, this might be chicken egg, no? People didn't expect players to play as well as they have because...? Because they'd not played that well. People expected Thunder to play better because...? Because they had played that well. So when we're evaluating which player had a greater impact on their team this season, how well players have played relative to expectations is pretty germane, no? 

5) I actually agree with you that the stats no longer give Harden a clear edge. I stated as much. I said what has happened is that when they did people created a false equivalence between them so now that the numbers have become closer people act like it's gone from close to clearly RW. And a lot of that is aesthetics or this idea that Harden is ~ cheating, which is false. But to be clear, there is IMO a legit argument to be made for RW as MVP, it's just not the argument that most are making with arbitrariness like triple doubles or subjective so like 'will'.

 

1) The argument is about Westbrook's usage and making his teammates better, so it is exclusively about offense.

2) Again, the Thunder don't have shooters. That's the issue here. Harden gets into the lane and kicks it out to guys who can bury 3s. That's where this perception of his making his teammates so much better comes in. Russell doesn't have that option because his teammates can't shoot 3s. 

3) You might have a point about Kanter's PER, if he wasn't so horrific defensively that you can't play him in many matchups. I don't want to hear anything about Kanter's offense, because he is so bad defensively that for every point he scores he's giving one back, and sometimes worse. There's a reason that a guy as offensively gifted as him plays 20 minutes per game on an offense starved team.

4) Oladipo is not "clearly" better than the next best wing player. I think he is better, but it's damn close. The Rockets also have 4 guys who are in that mix with him. Thunder have no one else who is: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Victor+Oladipo&player_id1_select=Victor+Oladipo&y1=2017&player_id1=oladivi01&player_id2_hint=Trevor+Ariza&player_id2_select=Trevor+Ariza&y2=2017&player_id2=arizatr01&player_id3_hint=Eric+Gordon&player_id3_select=Eric+Gordon&y3=2017&player_id3=gordoer01&player_id4_hint=Patrick+Beverley&player_id4_select=Patrick+Beverley&y4=2017&player_id4=beverpa01&player_id5_hint=Lou+Williams&player_id5_select=Lou+Williams&y5=2017&player_id5=willilo02

Capela has been better than Adams, he just missed a few games which brings down his win shares.

5) The triple doubles thing is arbitrary. But the argument that most are making is that the Thunder supporting cast is shit, which I've just shown you to be the case. If you dig into the stats at all, or hell even just watch the guys play, it's clear that the Rockets supporting cast is exponentially better. Which makes sense, since it's a team built around James Harden strengths, whereas the Thunder's group was designed with playing alongside Russ and KD, adn then you took out one of the two support columns, yet Russ has been able to make the whole thing balance on one leg.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

40 minutes ago, sperry said:

5) The triple doubles thing is arbitrary. But the argument that most are making is that the Thunder supporting cast is shit, which I've just shown you to be the case. If you dig into the stats at all, or hell even just watch the guys play, it's clear that the Rockets supporting cast is exponentially better. Which makes sense, since it's a team built around James Harden strengths, whereas the Thunder's group was designed with playing alongside Russ and KD, adn then you took out one of the two support columns, yet Russ has been able to make the whole thing balance on one leg.

This is exactly the way i perceive the argument. Except i dont think the triple-double is arbitrary. I think it's a historical feat that we won't see matched for another 40 years, if that.

[Relic]

3 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

This is exactly the way i perceive the argument. Except i dont think the triple-double is arbitrary. I think it's a historical feat that we won't see matched for another 40 years, if that.

It's pretty arbitrary. And Harden is on a better team. Can we move on now?