Let's talk about Tysha and Lannister soldiers

[King Gendry Baratheon]

First I know that westeros is a very grim place where many bad things happen, but let's once more think about the disturbing rape of Tysha. Tyrion said that after the gang rape she had over 100 silver coins and 1 gold coin. So that means that she would had slept with over 100 men during that day.

What is really disturbing to after the obvious thing like the whole gang rape, is that even if Lannister soldiers believed she was a whore, surely some one of them would think it was wrong to have 100 soldiers to sleep with one woman and would refuse?

I know it was Tywin who ordered this, but not all Lannister soldiers can be completely without moral. She was for sure bruised and bleeding in the end. The situation is unrealistic there should have been at least some who could not go trough it and see that this was not something a normal whore would do or something that anyone would deserve. If all 100 soldiers willingly and lustfully participated they really are the worst scum in westeros and can be compared to brave companion. What makes it even worse was that she was 14 years old.

Say what you want, but Tywin really is in the same scum as Euron Greyjoy or actually worse.

 

[CornishDornish]

It is entirely possible that Tyrion is internally demonising his already despised father. Yes the gang rape was vile but as readers when we first learn about the rape of Tysha it's through Tyrion's POV in AGoT when he and Bronn are traveling through the Vale. It's Tyrion recalling the events and telling Bronn about it. So it's likely that Tysha was raped repeatedly but not a 100 times as Tyrion's the unreliable narrator thinks.

[Free Northman Reborn]

14 minutes ago, King Gendry Baratheon said:

First I know that westeros is a very grim place where many bad things happen, but let's once more think about the disturbing rape of Tysha. Tyrion said that after the gang rape she had over 100 silver coins and 1 gold coin. So that means that she would had slept with over 100 men during that day.

What is really disturbing to after the obvious thing like the whole gang rape, is that even if Lannister soldiers believed she was a whore, surely some one of them would think it was wrong to have 100 soldiers to sleep with one woman and would refuse?

I know it was Tywin who ordered this, but not all Lannister soldiers can be completely without moral. She was for sure bruised and bleeding in the end. The situation is unrealistic there should have been at least some who could not go trough it and see that this was not something a normal whore would do or something that anyone would deserve. If all 100 soldiers willingly and lustfully participated they really are the worst scum in westeros and can be compared to brave companion. What makes it even worse was that she was 14 years old.

Say what you want, but Tywin really is in the same scum as Euron Greyjoy or actually worse.

 

It seems that the 101st violator has once again been conveniently left out of the moral outrage. Surely Tyrion was the most evil of the lot, given that he was the last. Not to mention that she was someone close to him.

 

[Philokles]

The 100 coins was probably for rhetorical effect. Not that it makes Tywin any less evil or the guardsmen any less complicit.

[rotting sea cow]

I refuse to discuss whether Tyrion's story is realistic or not.

44 minutes ago, King Gendry Baratheon said:

Say what you want, but Tywin really is in the same scum as Euron Greyjoy or actually worse.

Tywin unleashed Vargo Hoat, Gregor Clegane and Armory Loach on the Riverlands, knowing very well what it meant for the people there.

Tywin policies helped monsters like Roose and Ramsay to rise. He condoned a severe crime like violation of guest rights by the Freys.

In the words of Euron Greyjoy

"Crow's Eye, you call me. Well, who has a keener eye than the crow? After every battle the crows come in their hundreds and their thousands to feast upon the fallen. A crow can espy death from afar. And I say that all of Westeros is dying. Those who follow me will feast until the end of their days.

It is Tywin who made room for Euron to rise

Yes, Tywin is scum

 

28 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It seems that the 101st violator has once again been conveniently left out of the moral outrage. Surely Tyrion was the most evil of the lot, given that he was the last. Not to mention that she was someone close to him.

 

Forcing Tyrion to participate of the rape was also abuse towards him. Tyrion was also a victim as he was forced to witness the abuse of his wife and abuse her afterwards.

Again, Tywin is scum.

[CornishDornish]

24 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It seems that the 101st violator has once again been conveniently left out of the moral outrage. Surely Tyrion was the most evil of the lot, given that he was the last. Not to mention that she was someone close to him.

 

Guilt. Lots of it.

[The Wolves]

Tywin is a monster, the biggest and worst one we have seen in this series. Just a evil piece of shit to his rotten core. 

[Canon Claude]

My question is: how is Tyrion able to perform? I can assume that Tywin knows which of his men would be up for this kind of activity (no pun intended) and thus chose them for the occasion, but what about Tyrion? I mean, yes the body has an automatic physical response, but I've never figured out how far that goes in moments of great stress or duress. Surely not even Tywin can force someone to be aroused at will, especially in a situation like that. 

[PCK]

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I refuse to discuss whether Tyrion's story is realistic or not.

Tywin unleashed Vargo Hoat, Gregor Clegane and Armory Loach on the Riverlands, knowing very well what it meant for the people there.

Tywin policies helped monsters like Roose and Ramsay to rise. He condoned a severe crime like violation of guest rights by the Freys.

In the words of Euron Greyjoy

"Crow's Eye, you call me. Well, who has a keener eye than the crow? After every battle the crows come in their hundreds and their thousands to feast upon the fallen. A crow can espy death from afar. And I say that all of Westeros is dying. Those who follow me will feast until the end of their days.

It is Tywin who made room for Euron to rise

Yes, Tywin is scum

 

Forcing Tyrion to participate of the rape was also abuse towards him. Tyrion was also a victim as he was forced to witness the abuse of his wife and abuse her afterwards.

Again, Tywin is scum.

Jaime, Cersei, Tommen, & Myrcella will pay for Tywin's sins.

[Lion of the West]

3 hours ago, King Gendry Baratheon said:

First I know that westeros is a very grim place where many bad things happen, but let's once more think about the disturbing rape of Tysha. Tyrion said that after the gang rape she had over 100 silver coins and 1 gold coin. So that means that she would had slept with over 100 men during that day.

What is really disturbing to after the obvious thing like the whole gang rape, is that even if Lannister soldiers believed she was a whore, surely some one of them would think it was wrong to have 100 soldiers to sleep with one woman and would refuse?

I know it was Tywin who ordered this, but not all Lannister soldiers can be completely without moral. She was for sure bruised and bleeding in the end. The situation is unrealistic there should have been at least some who could not go trough it and see that this was not something a normal whore would do or something that anyone would deserve. If all 100 soldiers willingly and lustfully participated they really are the worst scum in westeros and can be compared to brave companion. What makes it even worse was that she was 14 years old.

Say what you want, but Tywin really is in the same scum as Euron Greyjoy or actually worse.

To start with the number of 100 is almost certainly a rhetorical device as I doubt that Tyrion carefully counted the guardsmen to come to the exact number of 100.

Secondly, guards of all Houses, and that includes knights, exist for the sole reason of hurting other people when their lords command it. Its not a modern Western military where the loyalty lies with the people but with the ruler. Some guardsmen might have refused but I doubt Tyrion made much of a note of these people as he's often focused on himself.

So the soldiers who were part of this are certainly scum.

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I refuse to discuss whether Tyrion's story is realistic or not.

Tywin unleashed Vargo Hoat, Gregor Clegane and Armory Loach on the Riverlands, knowing very well what it meant for the people there.

Tywin policies helped monsters like Roose and Ramsay to rise. He condoned a severe crime like violation of guest rights by the Freys.

In the words of Euron Greyjoy

"Crow's Eye, you call me. Well, who has a keener eye than the crow? After every battle the crows come in their hundreds and their thousands to feast upon the fallen. A crow can espy death from afar. And I say that all of Westeros is dying. Those who follow me will feast until the end of their days.

It is Tywin who made room for Euron to rise

Yes, Tywin is scum

The problem is that Tywin himself didn't make room for Euron to rise, its entirely unreasonable to paint that only on Tywin's shoulders. Tywin played a role together with many, many people like Renly, Balon, Stannis, Robert, Robb, Mace and others to create the situation that allowed Euron to thrive. Tywin is by no ways innocent of this but neither is he sole responsible party.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

6 hours ago, CornishDornish said:

It is entirely possible that Tyrion is internally demonising his already despised father. Yes the gang rape was vile but as readers when we first learn about the rape of Tysha it's through Tyrion's POV in AGoT when he and Bronn are traveling through the Vale. It's Tyrion recalling the events and telling Bronn about it. So it's likely that Tysha was raped repeatedly but not a 100 times as Tyrion's the unreliable narrator thinks.

6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It seems that the 101st violator has once again been conveniently left out of the moral outrage. Surely Tyrion was the most evil of the lot, given that he was the last. Not to mention that she was someone close to him.

 

6 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

The 100 coins was probably for rhetorical effect. Not that it makes Tywin any less evil or the guardsmen any less complicit.

5 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

My question is: how is Tyrion able to perform? I can assume that Tywin knows which of his men would be up for this kind of activity (no pun intended) and thus chose them for the occasion, but what about Tyrion? I mean, yes the body has an automatic physical response, but I've never figured out how far that goes in moments of great stress or duress. Surely not even Tywin can force someone to be aroused at will, especially in a situation like that. 

We had a recent discussion of this on the thread about Tywin not letting Tyrion visit the free cities here. 

Basically, I'm not convinced it went down as Tyrion describes.  I wouldn't be shocked if Tywin gave Tysha a choice - the men and the coin or the whip and go home empty.  The whole way they met is fishy, even if Tysha wasn't a whore Shae does point out that it's awfully odd that she slept with Tyrion shortly after he rescued her from a rape attempt.  And as we've seen with Shae, Tyrion, as much as he tries, really isn't great at understanding the motives of women he desires.  I'm not condoning the act by any means, I'm just stating that I am skeptical of the details we "know" about it.  The only thing I'm sure of is that Jaime told a fib about Tysha being a whore, and she got paid after many Lannister men had her with Tyrion taking her last.

BTW, random aside, but if a Lannister is "worth more" in bed then shouldn't Tyrion pay less than the guards?  Or is it meant to be "a Lannister has more wealth so can afford to pay more?"  This has always annoyed me.

[Renly's Banana]

I will never get over the Tywin apologists on here trying to whitewash him while somehow blaming Tyrion for the things that happened to him. 

"Yeah sure Tywin may have been a little naughty BUT HOW COME TYRION WAS ABLE TO RAPE TYSHA TOO IF HE DIDN'T WANT TO??? HE'S THE REAL MONSTER HERE" Really? 

[Lord Lannister]

33 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

"Yeah sure Tywin may have been a little naughty BUT HOW COME TYRION WAS ABLE TO RAPE TYSHA TOO IF HE DIDN'T WANT TO??? HE'S THE REAL MONSTER HERE" Really? 

Don't forget, Tyrion was always a monster. He murdered his mom the day he was born. He was always a hateful creature, full of envy, lust and low cunning. It's one thing to like the Lannisters as antagonists, or even flawed anti-heroes, and another completely to spout out lines like that just because some of them do.

[James Steller]

6 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

My question is: how is Tyrion able to perform? I can assume that Tywin knows which of his men would be up for this kind of activity (no pun intended) and thus chose them for the occasion, but what about Tyrion? I mean, yes the body has an automatic physical response, but I've never figured out how far that goes in moments of great stress or duress. Surely not even Tywin can force someone to be aroused at will, especially in a situation like that. 

Tyrion is capable of sexually assaulting and/or murdering someone. He strangles Shae with a necklace he gave her. There's also the courtesan in the fifth book, IIRC. Not to mention he fumes and broods about the horrible things he'll do to Cersei when he returns to Westeros. I wouldn't be surprised if he, feeling betrayed that Tysha lied to him and was just a prostitute all along, would find it in him to have sex with her even after all those men had gone before him.

[Canon Claude]

2 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

I will never get over the Tywin apologists on here trying to whitewash him while somehow blaming Tyrion for the things that happened to him. 

"Yeah sure Tywin may have been a little naughty BUT HOW COME TYRION WAS ABLE TO RAPE TYSHA TOO IF HE DIDN'T WANT TO??? HE'S THE REAL MONSTER HERE" Really? 

Is it possible to hate Tywin and ask about Tyrion at the same time? I didn't intend to absolve Tywin of his guilt. Nor the guards who were all complicit in this most horrific act.

[Tralalala]

Why is tysha so special? She isn't the first woman in westeros to get raped and most certainly isn't the last,why is everyone going on about her tragedy as if the most important thing in the world of the books?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

11 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It seems that the 101st violator has once again been conveniently left out of the moral outrage. Surely Tyrion was the most evil of the lot, given that he was the last. Not to mention that she was someone close to him.

 

Tyrion was a victim too. Contrary to popular belief, arousal is not the only source of erections and he was too terrified of his father and angry at the world to think of disobeying the order he was given.

OP, it's extremely unlikely that Tyrion was counting as he was forced to watch. 100 is likely a gross exaggeration. Also, you'd be surprised what normally decent people will do when they get into mob or crowd mode. If they'd been told she was a whore, many wouldn't have thought twice. In Westerosi society (and even in many modern societies) prostitutes are considered commodities rather than human beings.

[Protagoras]

Not especially strange.

Tywin is the law in Westerlands and I have so far not seen nor heard anything about any royal law that limit the people Tywin can have raped (with the exception of First night). So his actions is 100% legal, while certainly disturbing for modern readers. So, the soldiers didn´t care if she was a whore or not and I have seen no text argument that they do tbh. They just obeyed Tywins orders (and this is the middle ages period, so any Nurenberg argument should be ignored here - especially since Nurenberg only punished the losers and ignored all russian and allied rapes - hypocrisy as usual when it comes to the west).

Further, Tysha is being punished. She has, according to Tywin, commited a crime. Therefore, according to the soldiers, she is not a innocent girl but a convict who is getting suitably punished. Compare with Pretty Pia and her "crime" (Yeah, there was most likely many, many northerners who raped her so its not like they are better). Its not like Tywin just grabs a random girl and say "hey, lets rape her". Tywin has been told that she is a golddigger out for a marriage above her station - and acts on that information. But the responsibilty here is his 100%. Not Tyrions. Not the soldiers. I call bollocks on the idea that you have an own moral responsibilty separate from what society say.

And finally, what is moral is subjective and not objective - what is right or wrong is based on the era you live in, not unchangeable moral rules. And this is Westeros. People suffer and often. Why is she special? So not all soldiers would have agreed that this was a wrong thing to do. Those that did (and I have no doubt those existed) probably didn´t participate themselves. But they were unable to stop it for happen for obvious reasons. They were after all not the law, and would break the social contract if they think they could take this into their own hands. Also, soldiers tend to have a violent approach to life, that plunder and rape and death is ok and that the strong and powerful can act as they please. Otherwise, they wouldn´t have their positions most likely in the first place. A squemish person who question the idea of killing other, plundering and taking advantage of those that they can is not going to be a successful soldier. And even if they don´t rape themselves - their camraderie, their bond to other soldiers is stronger than whatever feelings they might have for Tysha. Most likely they have all seen worse in wars.

As for Tyrion, he has clearly been scarred by the event since he was a victim too (this event is probably the reason to his view on sexuality and why he acts like he do towards courtesans). I wouldn´t take all he say here at face-value. And I have strong ethical, deterministical issues with those that want to blame him for this.

[foxberlin]

In my opinion the Lannister soldiers arn't out of the picture considering guilt, since it is noted in the books that silver is a too high price for a common whore. Since rape is no common form of punishment either, even in Westeros, every raping soldier is more likely to be gelded or send to the wall, would law come into play. So Tywin took a pretty high risk to make his point, should the tale come around. I wonder why? Had he put too much trust into the shame of those being involved?

In any case, Jaime overcame his shame and told Tyrion about his part in that crime. Leaves Tyrion dealing with his own part in that, being no help for his young wife despite the vows he swore. I have the feeling there is still something left to discover in that chain of guilt. Tysha might have been a Lannister from the start with her "Ty" but became Lannister without any doubt when she wed Tyrion. I think she might be hidden like every shame. Around Castely Rock, I'd bet.

[theblackdragonI]

On 07/04/2017 at 1:47 AM, Protagoras said:

Tywin is the law in Westerlands and I have so far not seen nor heard anything about any royal law that limit the people Tywin can have raped (with the exception of First night). So his actions is 100% legal, while certainly disturbing for modern readers.

Just because that law isn't mentioned doesn't mean that having your men rape someone a hundred odd times is 100% legal. We don't hear about 99% of the laws that exist in Westeros, that doesn't mean they don't exist. By that logic, having an innocent man murdered is legal as long you get your knight to do it for you. While that does happen a lot, it's probably not legal, e.g. Ned calling Gregor to King's Landing for judgement. There's multiple instances of rapists being punished in the series. Randyll Tarly gelds his own men when they rape, I doubt it would be legal if he told them to do it. If anything that would make him part of it.

I can't see Robert Baratheon or the majority of the lords in Westeros being okay with this, hence I doubt its common knowledge. Or else people must think its a rumour. 

Yes rape happens a lot in this series, yes it's awful and many of the lords know about it and turn a blind eye. But it would be weird if they all were allowed to get away with it as long as they command their soldiers to do it.