Grover Bluejoy

Question for show watchers and book readers.

76 posts in this topic

8 minutes ago, StepStark said:

And what is your problem with that?

Well, that it's irrational to the point of madness and I'm not entirely sure how much of that is on the character and how much on the author.

Same with the Olly scenes in S5 and other examples from the show.

 

8 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Sorry, maybe you're just ironic, but I'll take your comment seriously. The fact that he continued with the escape AFTERWARDS isn't relevant for the fact that he abandoned his escape and put his life in grave danger BEFORE he had any reason to expect to find Shae in Tywin's room. What did he want to do with Tywin once in his room? To have a chat with him??? LOL!

Anger and fury are powerful emotions, and he seemed confident he wouldn't be running into any guards, so.... not sure what your problem is?

He was gonna "take him to task" and probably kill him, I don't see the mystery here?

 

8 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Isn't that the same as what I'm saying - that cutting out the Tysha revelation creates unrealistic scenario?

 

8 minutes ago, StepStark said:

I think you're contradicting yourself here.

No I'm pointing out the actual problems in the scene - of which "it didn't make sense for him to be angry and walk there" isn't one.

 

8 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Little too perfectly, right? Theon confesses everything to him only seconds before the ruse is revealed to him. You don't find that convoluted? I think it's ridiculous, to be honest. Because what was Ramsay's initial idea? For days and days he was acting as Theon's helper... for what reason? For what aim? Just to mess with Theon's mind?

There's some argument to be had that it increased the "charges against him" since he was caught escaping and then killing some of the Bolton men - but I doubt that's relevant.

So, yeah, to fuck with and break him - giving him various forms of "hope" and then taking it away again; this is also the most direct cause of Theon thinking Yara is a prank as well.

8 minutes ago, StepStark said:

 And you find that... interesting???

Sorry but no, it's not even close. In the books Ramsay shows his natural intelligence when he saves himself by pretending to be Reek. He is intelligent person.

Ok, so you find "ruse to get out of imprisonment" interesting but "ruse to mentally torture and brainwash" uninteresting - at this point I'm not even sure if the word "interesting" is supposed to mean anything anymore.

What DOES it mean?

 

8 minutes ago, StepStark said:

But he's also a sadist and unstable and prone to rushed reactions. All of that makes him not really a strategic genius. People that are prone to sadistic or any other outbursts are not wise strategists.

It's totally possible to be a "brilliant strategist" who's prone to emotional self-sabotage, that's not a contradiction at all - I'm not sure what your point is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

leave it to westeros.org to turn a question about what we like about the show into rant about what's so terrible about it. you guys never disappoint. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Well, that it's irrational to the point of madness and I'm not entirely sure how much of that is on the character and how much on the author.

What's irrational here? She escaped Harrenhall, of course she'd expect to reach Riverrun on her own and feel impatient with BWB.

4 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Anger and fury are powerful emotions, and he seemed confident he wouldn't be running into any guards, so.... not sure what your problem is?

He was gonna "take him to task" and probably kill him, I don't see the mystery here?

If you don't see why something like Tysha revelation is needed to push a man over the edge to the point where he doesn't care about his own survival any more, then there's no point in discussing it further.

7 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

There's some argument to be had that it increased the "charges against him" since he was caught escaping and then killing some of the Bolton men - but I doubt that's relevant.

So, yeah, to fuck with and break him - giving him various forms of "hope" and then taking it away again; this is also the most direct cause of Theon thinking Yara is a prank as well.

I hope you do remember that we were talking about your claim that Ramsay is introduced as a strategic genius in the show. Even with best intentions, I don't see what's strategic or genius about this.

9 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Ok, so you find "ruse to get out of imprisonment" interesting but "ruse to mentally torture and brainwash" uninteresting - at this point I'm not even sure if the word "interesting" is supposed to mean anything anymore.

What DOES it mean?

Character A is seen saving himself and then finding his way out of imprisonment and then torturing Theon to the point of destroying his identity. Character B is seen doing only the letter (torturing Theon). Do you really not see why is Character A more complex (and therefore more interesting) than Character B?

12 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

It's totally possible to be a "brilliant strategist" who's prone to emotional self-sabotage, that's not a contradiction at all - I'm not sure what your point is.

Maybe anything's totally possible to you. On the other hand, I don't think a psychopath can be a brilliant strategist. Psychopath cannot control himself even, how is he going to control an army, or a battle, or an enemy? Psychopaths don't function that way. But that's another topic altogether.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Psychopaths cannot be strategists"

wat 

You seem to know a lot about how psychopaths function..... 

Regardless, Ramsay being a good strategist and Ramsay being cray cray are not mutually exclusive things. LF has some sociopathic tendencies, so are we suddenly saying that LF isn't a good schemer? Or that Cersei isn't cunning? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, dsug said:

You seem to know a lot about how psychopaths function..... 

I'm just using common sense. Feel free to prove me wrong.

1 minute ago, dsug said:

Regardless, Ramsay being a good strategist and Ramsay being cray cray are not mutually exclusive things. LF has some sociopathic tendencies, so are we suddenly saying that LF isn't a good schemer? Or that Cersei isn't cunning? 

Those are totally different levels you're talking about. Having "some sociopathic tendencies" is not really the same as being a total sadist who finds joy only in hurting other people. Many of the great leaders in human history had some socipathic tendencies, but that didn't prevent some of them to be brilliant strategists. On the other hand I don't know of any brilliant strategist that was a sadistic psychopath like Ramsay. But again, feel free to prove me wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, StepStark said:

I'm just using common sense. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Those are totally different levels you're talking about. Having "some sociopathic tendencies" is not really the same as being a total sadist who finds joy only in hurting other people. Many of the great leaders in human history had some socipathic tendencies, but that didn't prevent some of them to be brilliant strategists. On the other hand I don't know of any brilliant strategist that was a sadistic psychopath like Ramsay. But again, feel free to prove me wrong.

Hitler murdered 11 million people and was very efficient and strategic about it. Stalin was even worse. But that's not really the point.

Besides, you are making Ramsay out to be this rash, compulsive lunatic running around cackling like the Joker. He was cruel and sadistic, indeed, but he was also very calculating. Him killing Roose was a knee-jerk response, apparently, but even then, it was very efficient, and he strategically handled the aftermath when tying up the loose ends of Walda and his baby brother. 

Yes, he got pleasure from hurting people, but that wasn't the only aspect of his personality. He was also very cold and calculating, and had a good mind for military strategy. Even his cruelty towards Rickon was clearly a tactic to throw Jon off his game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, dsug said:

Hitler murdered 11 million people and was very efficient and strategic about it. Stalin was even worse. But that's not really the point.

Better not be, because you obviously lack some basic knowledge about history when you say that Hitler murdered no more than 11 million people and that "Stalin was even worse".

10 minutes ago, dsug said:

Besides, you are making Ramsay out to be this rash, compulsive lunatic running around cackling like the Joker.

Not me, that's how the show made him in not so few scenes. While at the same time, in some other scenes, they made him like a brilliant strategist (for the sake of argument let's pretend that what passes for "strategy" in the show isn't mainly absurd and nonsensical). All I'm saying is that it's inconsistent, which, admittedly, may be giving too much credit to D&D, because their writing didn't even reach the level where consistency can be evaluated. It'd be like criticizing 9 year old kid for writing an inconsistent story: like, of course it's inconsistent, because it never made any sense to begin with.

16 minutes ago, dsug said:

Him killing Roose was a knee-jerk response, apparently, but even then, it was very efficient, and he strategically handled the aftermath when tying up the loose ends of Walda and his baby brother.

Of course it was efficient in the show, where no rule of realism exists. When D&D need something to be efficient, it's efficient. When they need something to be inefficient, then it's inefficient. That's the only criteria. Realism and logic have nothing to do with it.

17 minutes ago, dsug said:

Yes, he got pleasure from hurting people, but that wasn't the only aspect of his personality. He was also very cold and calculating, and had a good mind for military strategy. Even his cruelty towards Rickon was clearly a tactic to throw Jon off his game.

I've been in war unfortunately and I have no doubt that a sadistic psychopath cannot have a good strategic mind. The mind of a psychopath doesn't work like that. That is why psychopaths throughout history were used in the same way Ramsay and Gregor are used by Roose and Tywin respectively: as mad dogs that inflict terror. Euron may be one more example, but at this point in the books he's still a mystery. If he turns out to be a sadistic psychopath as that Aeron's preview chapter from TWOW suggests, then it would explain his stupid plan to send Victarion after Dany. If Martin however makes Euron into a psychopath whose plans are so clever they actually work, then it's going to be a serious mistake by Martin. But that's another topic and I won't reply about it any more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, StepStark said:

What's irrational here? She escaped Harrenhall, of course she'd expect to reach Riverrun on her own and feel impatient with BWB.

1) It's irrational because Beric was already going to Riverrun, and she was "thinking" he wanted to avoid it.

2) Considering that before I just informed you, you were remembering that part wrong, maybe you should go reread it first lmao?

 

37 minutes ago, StepStark said:

If you don't see why something like Tysha revelation is needed to push a man over the edge to the point where he doesn't care about his own survival any more, then there's no point in discussing it further.

No, having been belittled by Tywin all his life, and now having almost been executed by him and Shae in an infuriating show trial, is totally sufficient - if you don't see that then you're wrong. Lmao

 

37 minutes ago, StepStark said:

I hope you do remember that we were talking about your claim that Ramsay is introduced as a strategic genius in the show. Even with best intentions, I don't see what's strategic or genius about this.

Well could YOU pull it off eh?

37 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Character A is seen saving himself and then finding his way out of imprisonment and then torturing Theon to the point of destroying his identity. Character B is seen doing only the letter (torturing Theon). Do you really not see why is Character A more complex (and therefore more interesting) than Character B?

Getting yourself out of prison isn't a particularly "interesting" motivation for pulling a ruse, though the ruse itself can be (and is, in this case).

Also we weren't talking about "interesting" in the first place, it was about his competence.

 

37 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Maybe anything's totally possible to you. On the other hand, I don't think a psychopath can be a brilliant strategist. Psychopath cannot control himself even, how is he going to control an army, or a battle, or an enemy? Psychopaths don't function that way. But that's another topic altogether.

I've no idea what you mean by "psychopath" here - the primary trait of what people call "psychopathy" is lack of empathy; impulsiveness or "glib superficial charm" aren't necessary traits, but we're not talking about the modern 20th century definition of psycopathy in the first place so I've no idea what this is for?



You can have the intellectual capability of being a brilliant strategist, but have a poor impulse control that gets in the way.
You can also lack said intellectual ability, AND have poor impulse control too (=Joffrey).
You can lack the intellect, but have no problems with impulse control.

Ramsay's intelligence and self-control are two different subjects, and until you realize at least that you can't have a valid opinion on how "consistent his characterization is".


The way he goes about tricking Theon all the time, shows both intelligence/skill and 100% impulse control and acting ability - the question here is, how consistent is his "understanding of people" demonstrated in that context, with his constant need to be lectured by Roose on how to rule houses effectively; if he's that great at creating an obedient slave, why is he in danger of sparking a rebellion?

This is a POTENTIAL inconsistency, precisely because whenever that happens, it's clear that Ramsay really doesn't know better - i.e. has nothing to do with impulsiveness.


Also, what brings about his downfall is the invisible Vale army, not anything to do with being Roose's intellectual inferior - as far as I can think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

1) It's irrational because Beric was already going to Riverrun, and she was "thinking" he wanted to avoid it.

2) Considering that before I just informed you, you were remembering that part wrong, maybe you should go reread it first lmao?

I have no idea what you're talking about, because that chapter plays out just like I said: in the flames Thoros sees Riverrun surrounded by huge Lannister army, and that's why Beric is having second thoughts, and that's why Arya looses her patience and runs away. Maybe you yourself should reread something, the chapter or my post or both?

10 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

No, having been belittled by Tywin all his life, and now having almost been executed by him and Shae in an infuriating show trial, is totally sufficient - if you don't see that then you're wrong. Lmao

You conveniently keep ignoring the crucial point: he is saved from a death sentence at the last moment. He should be running for his life, and not trying to settle old scores. Unless something happens that makes him disregard his own survival. Up to that point Tyrion is a survivor, that's one of his main traits. When given the opportunity to save his own life, he uses it, naturally, regardless of how small an opportunity it may be. The only exception is the Blackwater battle, when he feels the duty toward the city that is entrusted to him. But in every other point he is someone who doesn't ignore opportunities to save his own life. So why would he do it now? Why is he risking his life? And also, why would he want to kill Tywin? That Tywin hates him is not news to him. As you yourself notice, in the show Tywin even made a deal to save him, but Tyrion broke it. So why does he even want to confront Tywin in the middle of the escape he couldn't even hope for just minutes ago?

24 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Getting yourself out of prison isn't a particularly "interesting" motivation for pulling a ruse, though the ruse itself can be (and is, in this case).

Also we weren't talking about "interesting" in the first place, it was about his competence.

You lost me again. This is not really a reply to my post. You're just confusing topics here. In badly written stories, characters can be whatever authors need at the moment. That's how Ramsay is "competent" in the show: he is "competent" when D&D need him to be in order to crawl their way out of some hole they dug themselves into. Talking about his competence is like talking about stupidity of Clark Kent's coworkers who don't realize he's Superman only without glasses: it's just a convenient plot device and nothing more. But we weren't talking about that even. What I asked you was to clarify your claim that Ramsay in the show is introduced as a strategic genius. If you made an honest mistake and didn't think that literally, then okay. But if you're sticking to your claim, then please just tell me how is Ramsay's strategic genius revealed in his introduction.

36 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Ramsay's intelligence and self-control are two different subjects, and until you realize at least that you can't have a valid opinion on how "consistent his characterization is".

Strategic wisdom is so much more than just pure intelligence. Only formulaic action flicks have psychopaths with strategic genius, there is no such thing in real life. It's a shame that D&D always go for tiring tropes like that, instead of using more layered and deeper characters from the source material.

42 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

The way he goes about tricking Theon all the time, shows both intelligence/skill and 100% impulse control and acting ability - the question here is, how consistent is his "understanding of people" demonstrated in that context, with his constant need to be lectured by Roose on how to rule houses effectively; if he's that great at creating an obedient slave, why is he in danger of sparking a rebellion?

This is a POTENTIAL inconsistency, precisely because whenever that happens, it's clear that Ramsay really doesn't know better - i.e. has nothing to do with impulsiveness.

You're finally seeing parts of the problem.

In short, I was giving too much credit to D&D. Their Ramsay wouldn't make sense even if they were better, more consistent writers. Their Ramsay is both unrealistic and poorly used.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@StepStark lol whatever man. clearly you just wanna whine about ramsay and make up things that i didn't actually say, so...nice chat, I guess?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, StepStark said:

I have no idea what you're talking about, because that chapter plays out just like I said: in the flames Thoros sees Riverrun surrounded by huge Lannister army, and that's why Beric is having second thoughts, and that's why Arya looses her patience and runs away. Maybe you yourself should reread something, the chapter or my post or both?

Some of his men have "second thoughts" - Beric insists they go to Riverrun, but "not blindly".

It does say that Arya kinda zones out and stops perceiving the words properly, but it doesn't say whether it refers to the words printed on the page, or those said by Beric after it cuts off - in the former case it'd be inattentive perception (due to stress etc.), in the latter case bad memory and irrationality.

So a bit of interpretation room already :D 

 

28 minutes ago, StepStark said:

You conveniently keep ignoring the crucial point: he is saved from a death sentence at the last moment. He should be running for his life, and not trying to settle old scores. Unless something happens that makes him disregard his own survival. Up to that point Tyrion is a survivor, that's one of his main traits.

No he's not, he foolishly yells an angry speech and demands trial for combat; before Jaime admonishes him for just that: "thought you were a realist; didn't think you'd die for pride".

Something DID happen, he was seething with anger the whole time. Lol

28 minutes ago, StepStark said:

When given the opportunity to save his own life, he uses it, naturally, regardless of how small an opportunity it may be.

That'd be the pragmatic, self-serving thing to do - unless the person valued their survival less than honor/retribution in the first place.

If they valued their life more, then impulsively going against this value would be an emotionally rash decision.


With that said, the "irrationality" or whichever it is, of Tyrion's decision, isn't really driven home in the show - he's sneaking through those dark, empty corridors with no guards in them, doesn't seem like he expects any trouble from that, at least not likely.

So a relatively small risk, apparently.

28 minutes ago, StepStark said:

The only exception is the Blackwater battle, when he feels the duty toward the city that is entrusted to him. But in every other point he is someone who doesn't ignore opportunities to save his own life. So why would he do it now? Why is he risking his life? And also, why would he want to kill Tywin? That Tywin hates him is not news to him.

But he thought he was trying to get him executed in a devious manner, that's quite an escalation - also, what better moment to have had enough, right?

28 minutes ago, StepStark said:

As you yourself notice, in the show Tywin even made a deal to save him, but Tyrion broke it.

Yeah but if the script still remembered that, Tywin would've brought it up :D

28 minutes ago, StepStark said:

So why does he even want to confront Tywin in the middle of the escape he couldn't even hope for just minutes ago?

Well, it's also an opportunity for vengeance that he couldn't hope for just minutes ago.

28 minutes ago, StepStark said:

You lost me again. This is not really a reply to my post. You're just confusing topics here. In badly written stories, characters can be whatever authors need at the moment. That's how Ramsay is "competent" in the show: he is "competent" when D&D need him to be in order to crawl their way out of some hole they dug themselves into. Talking about his competence is like talking about stupidity of Clark Kent's coworkers who don't realize he's Superman only without glasses: it's just a convenient plot device and nothing more. But we weren't talking about that even. What I asked you was to clarify your claim that Ramsay in the show is introduced as a strategic genius. If you made an honest mistake and didn't think that literally, then okay. But if you're sticking to your claim, then please just tell me how is Ramsay's strategic genius revealed in his introduction.

Um... what?

I said he's first introduced as a brilliant trickster villain - which is why any subsequent depictions of him being incompetent (unless justified) are the inconsistency, not the other way around.

Had he been introduced as an angry impulsive idiot, then subsequent depictions as a  strategic genius would be the problem.

What's so difficult about it?

28 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Strategic wisdom is so much more than just pure intelligence. Only formulaic action flicks have psychopaths with strategic genius, there is no such thing in real life.

Ooookay, but he pulls off that ruse and later the deceptive torture scenarios impeccably and effectively.

That's a fact, it happens in the show.

28 minutes ago, StepStark said:

It's a shame that D&D always go for tiring tropes like that, instead of using more layered and deeper characters from the source material.

You're finally seeing parts of the problem.

No I don't, how is it different from Book Ramsay pulling off his get-out-of-Winterfell-prison ruse with equivalent brilliance and self-control?

The only difference you pointed out so far was that it was about getting out of prison, as opposed to "just messing with Theon" - that says nothing about self-control or competence, only the larger goal or context.

28 minutes ago, StepStark said:

In short, I was giving too much credit to D&D. Their Ramsay wouldn't make sense even if they were better, more consistent writers. Their Ramsay is both unrealistic and poorly used.

Get your arguments in order, then you get to be pompous :D 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Some of his men have "second thoughts" - Beric insists they go to Riverrun, but "not blindly".

It does say that Arya kinda zones out and stops perceiving the words properly, but it doesn't say whether it refers to the words printed on the page, or those said by Beric after it cuts off - in the former case it'd be inattentive perception (due to stress etc.), in the latter case bad memory and irrationality.

So a bit of interpretation room already :D 

Sorry but you're not telling the truth: Beric is not insisting they go to Riverrun. He doesn't even mention Riverrun in that discussion. The only thing Beric insists on is gathering more information. If anything, he argues that Blackfish and Arya don't know each other and wouldn't recognize each other. She has no reason to feel confident he's planing to take her to Riverrun. Not to mention that when Sandor grabs her at the end of the chapter, and before she realizes it's Sandor, she thinks BWB caught her, and she says: “Let go, I was going to go back, I...” Also, in no moment Arya "zones out and stops perceiving the words properly". Where did you get that???

So there is no "room for interpretation", you're just misinterpreting (at best) the text obviously. Considering you've just reread the chapter, it doesn't speak well of your reading comprehension. And let's remember that you brought up this scene in order to... what exactly? Were you trying to defend D&D by showing that Martin does the same mistake sometimes? If that was indeed your intention, you failed big time.

5 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

No he's not, he foolishly yells an angry speech and demands trial for combat; before Jaime admonishes him for just that: "thought you were a realist; didn't think you'd die for pride".

Something DID happen, he was seething with anger the whole time. Lol

That'd be the pragmatic, self-serving thing to do - unless the person valued their survival less than honor/retribution in the first place.

If they valued their life more, then impulsively going against this value would be an emotionally rash decision.


With that said, the "irrationality" or whichever it is, of Tyrion's decision, isn't really driven home in the show - he's sneaking through those dark, empty corridors with no guards in them, doesn't seem like he expects any trouble from that, at least not likely.

So a relatively small risk, apparently.

But he thought he was trying to get him executed in a devious manner, that's quite an escalation - also, what better moment to have had enough, right?

Yeah but if the script still remembered that, Tywin would've brought it up :D

Well, it's also an opportunity for vengeance that he couldn't hope for just minutes ago.

This is wrong on so many levels, I don't even know where to begin. Yes, he looses it on the trial and yells an angry speech - BECAUSE HE WAS TRIGGERED BY SHAE'S TESTIMONY! Unless triggered by something or someone, Tyrion is not the man who does irrational things. And what was he triggered by during the escape, please?

You're misunderstanding the true danger even. The true danger is about him confronting Tywin, and that's why your argument makes no sense. If he's as angry at Tywin as you say, then he has no reason to expect Tywin will let him escape, which means that he'll have to kill Tywin or let Tywin take him back to the cell. Going into Tywin's room means either murdering Tywin or being taken back to the cell: those are the two most possible outcomes of their confrontation, and Tyrion has to realize that. But he's still going! Why???

Are you trying to say that he went there with the intention of killing Tywin? Or that he just didn't care? Whichever it is, it makes no sense under the circumstances presented in the show - without the Tysha revelation as a triggering cause.

If you just accept that people do such extreme actions with no particular reason, then you're willing to accept anything, more or less. Which is okay but then GOT is just escapism for you and you don't seek any real value in it.

5 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Um... what?

I said he's first introduced as a brilliant trickster villain - which is why any subsequent depictions of him being incompetent (unless justified) are the inconsistency, not the other way around.

Had he been introduced as an angry impulsive idiot, then subsequent depictions as a  strategic genius would be the problem.

What's so difficult about it?

Ooookay, but he pulls off that ruse and later the deceptive torture scenarios impeccably and effectively.

That's a fact, it happens in the show.

No I don't, how is it different from Book Ramsay pulling off his get-out-of-Winterfell-prison ruse with equivalent brilliance and self-control?

The only difference you pointed out so far was that it was about getting out of prison, as opposed to "just messing with Theon" - that says nothing about self-control or competence, only the larger goal or context.

Get your arguments in order, then you get to be pompous :D 

Again, you're using a strawman here. Nobody said that Ramsay is an angry impulsive idiot. In fact, I said that he is very intelligent and also a sadistic psychopath. He can be both because intelligence is one thing, mentality another.

What you obviously don't understand is that strategic wisdom requires something more than sheer intelligence: among other things, patience, discipline and understanding of the way other people think and using it to your own advantage. All those traits are incompatible with being a sadistic psychopath. And also, what Ramsay did in the ACOK, when he was pretending to be Reek, that is not "strategic wisdom" in any way. That is just him being saved by his instincts and his intelligence. You shouldn't confuse that with strategy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, StepStark said:

Sorry but you're not telling the truth: Beric is not insisting they go to Riverrun. He doesn't even mention Riverrun in that discussion. The only thing Beric insists on is gathering more information. If anything, he argues that Blackfish and Arya don't know each other and wouldn't recognize each other. She has no reason to feel confident he's planing to take her to Riverrun. Not to mention that when Sandor grabs her at the end of the chapter, and before she realizes it's Sandor, she thinks BWB caught her, and she says: “Let go, I was going to go back, I...” Also, in no moment Arya "zones out and stops perceiving the words properly". Where did you get that???

So there is no "room for interpretation", you're just misinterpreting (at best) the text obviously. Considering you've just reread the chapter, it doesn't speak well of your reading comprehension. And let's remember that you brought up this scene in order to... what exactly? Were you trying to defend D&D by showing that Martin does the same mistake sometimes? If that was indeed your intention, you failed big time.

Lord Beric paid no heed to her outburst. "My lady," he said with weary courtesy, "would you know your grandfather's brother by sight? Ser Brynden Tully, called the Blackfish? Would he know you, perchance?"
Arya shook her head miserably. She had heard her mother speak of Ser Brynden Blackfish, but if she had ever met himherself it had been when she was too little to remember.
"Small chance the Blackfish will pay good coin for a girl he doesn't know," said Tom. "Those Tullys are a sour, suspicious lot, he's like to think we're selling him false goods."
"We'll convince him," Lem Lemoncloak insisted. "She will, or Harwin. Riverrun is closest. I say we take her there, get the gold, and be bloody well done with her."
"And if the lions catch us inside the castle?" said Tom. "They'd like nothing better than to hang his lordship in a cage from the top of Casterly Rock."
"I do not mean to be taken," said Lord Beric. A final word hung unspoken in the air. Alive. They all heard it, even Arya, though it never passed his lips. "Still, we dare not go blindly here. I want to know where the armies are, the wolves and lions both. Sharna will know something, and Lord Vance's maester will know more. Acorn Hall's not far. Lady Smallwood will shelter us for a time while we send scouts ahead to learn . . ."
His words beat at her ears like the pounding of a drum, and suddenly it was more than Arya could stand. She wanted Riverrun, not Acorn Hall; she wanted her mother and her brother Robb, not Lady Smallwood or some uncle she never knew. Whirling, she broke for the door, and when Harwin tried to grab her arm she spun away from him quick as a snake.

Tom is against Riverrun, Lem and Beric are for Riverrun;
Beric talks about "Acorn Hall etc." in the context of learning about the armies, while Arya thinks those places are INSTEAD OF Riverrun.
 
Quote

Also, in no moment Arya "zones out and stops perceiving the words properly". Where did you get that???

"His words beat at her ears like the pounding of a drum, and suddenly it was more than Arya could stand." - apparently she only heard him say words like "Acorn" and "Lady Smallwood", without her brain really processing the context they were said in.

If this interpretation is true, the text would be conveying an irrational stream of consciousness - if not, it might be some kind of plot hole.

 

Quote

Not to mention that when Sandor grabs her at the end of the chapter, and before she realizes it's Sandor, she thinks BWB caught her, and she says: “Let go, I was going to go back, I...”

Might've been lying, or changed her mind, or unsure what she wanted in the first place - not really clear is it?

 
 
 
 
 
 
2 hours ago, StepStark said:

This is wrong on so many levels, I don't even know where to begin. Yes, he looses it on the trial and yells an angry speech - BECAUSE HE WAS TRIGGERED BY SHAE'S TESTIMONY! Unless triggered by something or someone, Tyrion is not the man who does irrational things. And what was he triggered by during the escape, please?

Irrational anger can last for a lot longer than 5 minutes, you know.

2 hours ago, StepStark said:

You're misunderstanding the true danger even. The true danger is about him confronting Tywin, and that's why your argument makes no sense. If he's as angry at Tywin as you say, then he has no reason to expect Tywin will let him escape, which means that he'll have to kill Tywin or let Tywin take him back to the cell. Going into Tywin's room means either murdering Tywin or being taken back to the cell: those are the two most possible outcomes of their confrontation, and Tyrion has to realize that. But he's still going! Why???

It definitely came off like he was planning to kill him, or was driven towards it - make him answer and then kill him.

2 hours ago, StepStark said:

Are you trying to say that he went there with the intention of killing Tywin? Or that he just didn't care? Whichever it is, it makes no sense under the circumstances presented in the show - without the Tysha revelation as a triggering cause.

If you just accept that people do such extreme actions with no particular reason, then you're willing to accept anything, more or less. Which is okay but then GOT is just escapism for you and you don't seek any real value in it.

So to you "not because of something that just happened 1 minute ago" = "no particular reason"?

 

 

 

2 hours ago, StepStark said:

Again, you're using a strawman here. Nobody said that Ramsay is an angry impulsive idiot. In fact, I said that he is very intelligent and also a sadistic psychopath. He can be both because intelligence is one thing, mentality another.

huh

2 hours ago, StepStark said:

What you obviously don't understand is that strategic wisdom requires something more than sheer intelligence: among other things, patience, discipline and understanding of the way other people think and using it to your own advantage.

It's completely possible to have 100% of the "understanding", and also being prone to impatience.

What "discipline" are you talking about - the discipline required to perhaps sit down and figure out some tactics/intrigue thing? Or the disipline to go through with your strategic counterplan after having already designed it?

2 hours ago, StepStark said:

All those traits are incompatible with being a sadistic psychopath.

Having no compassion and enjoying torture isn't connected to discipline, patience or understanding I don't even

2 hours ago, StepStark said:

And also, what Ramsay did in the ACOK, when he was pretending to be Reek, that is not "strategic wisdom" in any way. That is just him being saved by his instincts and his intelligence. You shouldn't confuse that with strategy.

Hair splitting - if you can pull off a ruse at this level, it's totally believable when you also turn out to be good at "strategy", which presumably refers to more complicated deception/counter-deception scenarios.

The torture scene with Theon is also "strategic", he has an elaborate plan on what role to play at any given point and the impressions Theon is supposed to get - and he remains collected and in control the whole time, pulling it off perfectly.
So then he turns out to also be great at manipulating the emotions of opposing armies? NOT a huge stretch, I'm sorry to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to the OP, I don't prefer any TV characters to their book counterparts.  The show has been excellently cast overall.  I did agree w/aging up the child characters.  But I really can't think of a single character who is "better" than their book version.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ned, Rob, Cersie, Olenna, Margery , The Hound, Tywin, Bronn, Ramsey.

Its a hard question as they are two different mediums of entertainment so it's hard to compare them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.