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1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

the fact that he abridged their draft has zero to do with the fact that the oily black stone is merely a footnote in a story that has nothing to do with it. Oily black stone plays an adjunct role in three POV stories, Theon, Asha and Vic.  It is so minor even if it was erased from the story, those POVs would not change a single bit. That is what I mean. It is an interesting side note, but nothing more, except for fans who love writing their own story  

He did not "abridge" their draft. He greatly expanded on it. Yes, you are correct that the oily black stone is basically a footnote in the main books. My point was that it is clearly more than a footnote in TWOIAF, which was largely authored by GRRM, a fact you were apparently unaware of before. So it may be important and you can't say it definitely isn't just because it is only significant in TWOIAF, because GRRM wrote that material too.

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Just now, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

He did not "abridge" their draft. He greatly expanded on it. Yes, you are correct that the oily black stone is basically a footnote in the main books. My point was that it is clearly more than a footnote in TWOIAF, which was largely authored by GRRM, a fact you were apparently unaware of before. So it may be important and you can't say it definitely isn't just because it is only significant in TWOIAF, because GRRM wrote that material too.

Yet I just did. The world book isn't the story, it is a supplement, a place to put other things that have no bearing on the story. The cause for the andal migration,  while interesting has zilch to do with the main plot of the story, just like the oily black stone. If it was that important we would have learned it forms the base of the hightower before the world book. But we didn't. So it is not important at all 

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Doncha know guys; the oily black stone places are artifacts left behind by the Reptilian Aliens that live on the Black Hole Moon that's responsible for the strange seasons. They have infiltrated Westerosi society as sleeper agents and wait until the Lemon Tree in Braavos blooms again so that they can come back in force and eat everybody's souls.

That's also why the Others aren't evil, they are desperately trying to reach Braavos and kill that Lemon Tree before it blooms.

No but all jests aside, I agree with Dorian Martell's son, the Oily Black Stone, just like the dreadful gods and unholy rites of K'Dath, the Gemstone Emperors of Yi-Ti, the Fish People of the Thousand Islands and the numerous Eldritch abominations worshipped anywhere from Qohor to Leng are just there to fill out the setting. 

On 07/04/2017 at 9:02 PM, Lollygag said:

Since the stone is seen in the shape of a Kraken, I did some research on Krakens in myth. 

So, you googled them for five minutes? Let's call it what it is. Because, frankly I have a children's book about mythological animals that pretty much tells as much about the Kraken. In addition to that it also says that at one point some people believed it would only surface once in the history of mankind; when the fires of the Apocalypse cause the seas to boil. Only then the Kraken would appear before the eyes of men and angels and then perish.

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3 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Doncha know guys; the oily black stone places are artifacts left behind by the Reptilian Aliens that live on the Black Hole Moon that's responsible for the strange seasons. They have infiltrated Westerosi society as sleeper agents and wait until the Lemon Tree in Braavos blooms again so that they can come back in force and eat everybody's souls.

That's also why the Others aren't evil, they are desperately trying to reach Braavos and kill that Lemon Tree before it blooms.

No but all jests aside, I agree with Dorian Martell's son, the Oily Black Stone, just like the dreadful gods and unholy rites of K'Dath, the Gemstone Emperors of Yi-Ti, the Fish People of the Thousand Islands and the numerous Eldritch abominations worshipped anywhere from Qohor to Leng are just there to fill out the setting. 

So, you googled them for five minutes? Let's call it what it is. Because, frankly I have a children's book about mythological animals that pretty much tells as much about the Kraken. In addition to that it also says that at one point some people believed it would only surface once in the history of mankind; when the fires of the Apocalypse cause the seas to boil. Only then the Kraken would appear before the eyes of men and angels and then perish.

Do you have, like, an interview with GRRM where he said that? Not to sound like a dick, but you guys are assuming, for no reason, that GRRM wrote all this material just as filler, and that it has no relevance to the story at hand. Why are you assuming this?

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On 4/6/2017 at 5:19 PM, Ser Frasier of House Crane said:

I've heard it hypothesized that the oily black stone is actually plastic, and that Planetos is essentially set in the farthest-flung future where everything has regressed to a stagnant agrarian society a la McCaffrey's Pern series. I do think that the series is set on a distant planet in that time, but I like the idea of the origin of the oily black stone to be something alien entirely, and that it was there long before the settlers of Planetos ever set foot on it.

As for what the relevance of the stone is in-story, probably nothing, as it is seldom remarked upon in the actual novels themselves. It's just flavor in the world--a delicious flavor, one which I crave to see more, but which I don't think we'll get more than a morsel of in the text. I've been craving a one-shot story from George of a curious Targaryen king sending a party of knights to Sothoryos and going full-on Joseph Conrad/H.P. Lovecraft as they approach Yeen for years.

It just adds depth to the world within the story.  As you say, flavor. 

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9 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

No but all jests aside, I agree with Dorian Martell's son, the Oily Black Stone, just like the dreadful gods and unholy rites of K'Dath, the Gemstone Emperors of Yi-Ti, the Fish People of the Thousand Islands and the numerous Eldritch abominations worshipped anywhere from Qohor to Leng are just there to fill out the setting.

So do I. It add "flavour" (as someone else said), or also - as GRRM depictured a realistic world - some of elements are unexplained for the people who lived in this world and will allways stay unexplained. And in a litterar way, they have the function of funny references and red herring, some gratuitous things for gratuitous pleasure. ^^

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17 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Do you have, like, an interview with GRRM where he said that? Not to sound like a dick, but you guys are assuming, for no reason, that GRRM wrote all this material just as filler, and that it has no relevance to the story at hand. Why are you assuming this?

Well, he has said we won't be going to Asshai... Which sucks, because I'd rather go to Asshai than spend a single paragraph more in Meereen or in the Riverlands.

In addition to that reason, until now, none of this has showed up in the storyline except as window dressing.

To bring up my usual example: if the LOTR had been in this situation (first two books are released, Tolkien has been writing on ROTK for years and years, and in the meantime a World Book has been released detailing the Silmarillion timeline as well as stuff like all seven Dwarf Clans, the East Elves, the Dark Lands and the Burnt Lands of the Sun)

In this scenario would people speculate if Beruthiel would show up somewhere along the storyline (maybe as Sauron's consort)? Or that Umbar would play a huge part in the War of the Ring? Or that some random clan of Avari living at the far eastern end of Middle Earth would be vital to the story?

The way I see it, it would be more vital to prove that those things will have any bearing on the plot than to prove that they won't.

Because really, where's your interview with GRRM where he says the Fisher Queens will rally around Dany and help her in her conquest?  

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The stone has historical significance even if it doesn't have any role in he current story arcs.  Asshai, the base of the tower at Oldtowne, the five forts (I could be wrong on this, I'm at work and my books are at home) are made of the stone.   Asshai and the forts are the farthest boundaries to the east between whatever threat is out there.  Maybe the stone has properties that give extra protection against the threat.  A slick, oily stone adds to the defense if your enemy has giant spiders.   It's harder to climb an oily surface.  Even lemmings would find it impossible to climb that wall.

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13 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

 

The stone has historical significance even if it doesn't have any role in he current story arcs.  Asshai, the base of the tower at Oldtowne, the five forts (I could be wrong on this, I'm at work and my books are at home) are made of the stone.   Asshai and the forts are the farthest boundaries to the east between whatever threat is out there.  Maybe the stone has properties that give extra protection against the threat.  A slick, oily stone adds to the defense if your enemy has giant spiders.   It's harder to climb an oily surface.  Even lemmings would find it impossible to climb that wall.

 

If we want to study the "oily black stone" rigourously - I mean just following the text - so it appears only 3 times in all what GRRM wrote about the world of Ice and Fire : once in ASOIAF for the throne of the Ironborn, and twice in TWOIAF : 1.Yeen at Sothoryos 2.the throne of the Ironborn. 

The black stone of the Hightower's Tower at Oldstone isn't an oily black stone, but the maester are tempted to compare it to the black melted stone used by Valyrians (like Dragonstone or the black Wall of Volantis), that wakes some interrogations about valyrian presence in Westeros, or the knowledge of building tecnics that are historically attributed only to Valyrians. But nowhere the stone of the seastone chair is linked to the stone of the Hightower's tower. If they were the same, surely that maesters would have remark it. For the moment, only the readers are linking the two, with others mysterious black stones. I think we can assume that Westerosi know their lands better than us ^^ 

Same way, the stone of Asshaï isn't the oily black stone, neither the melted and black valyrian stone :

Quote

Travelers tell us that the city is built entirely of black stone: halls, hovels, temples, palaces, streets, walls, bazaars, all. Some say as well that the stone of Asshai has a greasy, unpleasant feel to it, that it seems to drink the light, dimming tapers and torches and hearth fires alike. The nights are very black in Asshai, all agree, and even the brightest days of summer are somehow grey and gloomy. (Asshai-by-the-shadow, TWOIAF) 

This is the only description of the stone at Asshai. 

 

So, to be short, the oily black stone appears only once in ASOIAF. It seems to few to have a narrative theory about it, for the moment (by the way, I think it can support a symbolic reading to compare it to other thrones, like the IT or like white thrones of weirwoods^^)

 

(Edit : I was mistaken here : 

"But nowhere the stone of the seastone chair is linked to the stone of the Hightower's tower. If they were the same, surely that maesters would have remark it. For the moment, only the readers are linking the two, with others mysterious black stones. I think we can assume that Westerosi know their lands better than us ^^"

In fact, there is one maester who links seastone chair and Hightower's tower, and he says that the black oily stone is the trail of a legendary race of sea's creatures, the Deep Ones... direct reference to Lovecraft.

But sadly, no link with battle of the dawn, last hero, starks, dayne, lightbringer, AA, even nor snarks nor grumkins ^^)

 

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13 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Well, he has said we won't be going to Asshai... Which sucks, because I'd rather go to Asshai than spend a single paragraph more in Meereen or in the Riverlands.

In addition to that reason, until now, none of this has showed up in the storyline except as window dressing.

To bring up my usual example: if the LOTR had been in this situation (first two books are released, Tolkien has been writing on ROTK for years and years, and in the meantime a World Book has been released detailing the Silmarillion timeline as well as stuff like all seven Dwarf Clans, the East Elves, the Dark Lands and the Burnt Lands of the Sun)

In this scenario would people speculate if Beruthiel would show up somewhere along the storyline (maybe as Sauron's consort)? Or that Umbar would play a huge part in the War of the Ring? Or that some random clan of Avari living at the far eastern end of Middle Earth would be vital to the story?

The way I see it, it would be more vital to prove that those things will have any bearing on the plot than to prove that they won't.

Because really, where's your interview with GRRM where he says the Fisher Queens will rally around Dany and help her in her conquest?  

Your LOTR analogy is a bad one, because TWOIAF is not analogous to the Silmarillion. Fire and Blood, which will not be released for years assuming GRRM ever finishes it, will be his version of the Silmarillion, that is basically a history book. TWOIAF is by no means a comprehensive history of Planetos. It is very selective in content, and frankly it seems that GRRM may have purposely selected said content to help provide info/clues for the main series. Just like the 3 Dunk & Egg stories seem to be directly relevant to the main series. Is there some extraneous info in TWOIAF? Sure there is. But the vast majority of the material seems to be relevant to the main plot. And really, it baffles me why GRRM would take so much time away from writing the main books to write TWOIAF if it was just filler.

So until someone shows me a quote from GRRM himself stating the material in TWOIAF is not important, I am going to stick to my reasoning that is is super relevant.

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The question to my mind is whether or not oily black stone is basalt with volcanic origins.  And whether or not the right of Islands that make up the Irons Islands are volcanic in nature.  The seastone chair being a block of basalt thrown onto the land by an eruption from the bottom of the sea.  

 

A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

Reek knew the cost. Seven, he thought, seven fingers. A man can make do with seven fingers. Seven is a sacred number. He remembered how much it had hurt when Lord Ramsay had commanded Skinner to lay his ring finger bare.

The air was wet and heavy, and shallow pools of water dotted the ground. Reek picked his way between them carefully, following the remnants of the log-and-plank road that Robb Stark's vanguard had laid down across the soft ground to speed the passage of his host. Where once a mighty curtain wall had stood, only scattered stones remained, blocks of black basalt so large it must once have taken a hundred men to hoist them into place. Some had sunk so deep into the bog that only a corner showed; others lay strewn about like some god's abandoned toys, cracked and crumbling, spotted with lichen. Last night's rain had left the huge stones wet and glistening, and the morning sunlight made them look as if they were coated in some fine black oil.

 

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17 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

the stone of Asshai has a greasy, unpleasant feel to it, that it seems to drink the light, dimming tapers and torches and hearth fires alike.

Sounds like solar powered technology, if you subscribe to the interregnum theory.

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We've still got two books to go. Could be anyone's guess what it is. I'm guessing it could be a primitive version of the blackstone that the Valyrian's used. Or it could be the other way round if you subscribe to the theory that an older race/empire taught the Valyrian's dragon riding and stonecraft (magic). We also have two POV characters nearby an oily black stone place: the Hightower. So I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the oily black stone GRRM is a bugger for putting in details that seem insignificant at first.

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14 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Your LOTR analogy is a bad one, because TWOIAF is not analogous to the Silmarillion. Fire and Blood, which will not be released for years assuming GRRM ever finishes it, will be his version of the Silmarillion, that is basically a history book. TWOIAF is by no means a comprehensive history of Planetos. It is very selective in content, and frankly it seems that GRRM may have purposely selected said content to help provide info/clues for the main series. Just like the 3 Dunk & Egg stories seem to be directly relevant to the main series. Is there some extraneous info in TWOIAF? Sure there is. But the vast majority of the material seems to be relevant to the main plot. And really, it baffles me why GRRM would take so much time away from writing the main books to write TWOIAF if it was just filler.

So until someone shows me a quote from GRRM himself stating the material in TWOIAF is not important, I am going to stick to my reasoning that is is super relevant.

If you read my message. you will notice I have NOT compared the Silmarillion with the Worldbook I proposed  a hypothetical Middle Earth Encyclopedia compiled with Tolkiens help detailing the Silmarillion timeline as well as things Tolkien only ever wrote brief sentences about (the Seven Dwarf Tribes, the East Elves/Avari) So basically everything a book detailing everything around before and around the LoTR.

My point was when

And what are you trying to say by telling us that TWOIAF is not a comprehensive history of Planetos? Of course it isn't, because, and this is judging by quotes from interviews:

Quote
"Some of that is, Here there be dragons," Martin cautioned. "It's beyond the world they know." Of the other continents yet to be explored, Martin said he "deliberately" kept Sothoryos mysterious, to echo real-life history: "Even though Africa was known to Europe from the earliest days of ancient Greece,” he said, “we knew relatively little about sub-Saharan Africa."
He chuckles at the complaints he gets from fans about the lack of boundaries on his maps: "What's this Ulthos thing over here? Is it just a big island? Or is it another continent?"[

I doubt a "comprehensive" history of "Planetos" exists, in Martin's mind or otherwise. In Middle Earth everything but the West is pretty much empty as well. Doesn't mean that the Sea of Rhun has story significance. The two only things that ever happened with Rhun in relation to the storyline are 1) It's were the River Running mentioned in the Hobbit ends up  2) Boromir's horn is made from the horns of the wild bulls that live there. It's filler, background material. If Tolkien had released a world book like TWOIAF (and again I'm NOT talking about the Silmarillion) I'm sure we'd had heard quite a bot about the sea and who lives there.

The Worldbook details the regions that have been mentioned in passing during the storyline plus the things in-between. Why those places and nothing east of Asshai? Because we have heard those names and people were curious about them.

As to why take away the time? 3 reason I could tell you right now: 1. Money! Evidence with other fantasy and science fiction universes shows that people are interested in spending money on background material. 2. People asked for info on those mysterious places referred to by characters. 3. It would have been impossible to put all of those details into the books themselves, precisely because Yi-Ti and Sanor are likely not important to the storyline.

Also, I hope you are aware of how righteous your last paragraph is :lol: You demand proof for the idea that the bulk of the stuff from TWOIAF is background material (if you like that better than filler).

Where is your proof that in, in the span of the next two books (and that excludes the sample chapters we already have) all those things, every dark deity, every throwaway civilization from the Sanori to the Winged Men and the Fish People of the Thousand Islands, and the Ibbenese and the Jogos Nhai and the Gemstone Emperors and Southorous and Ulthos and Stygai/Asshai (which Martin has already said we won't visit) and the Bridled Men and the Oily Stone and the warriors warrior women tribes in the bones and Trader Town and that nomadic emperor guy (forget the details) and the Bloodless Men and the Five Forts and everything else mentioned in the World Book will play a vital and important role in the main novels of ASoIaF? Where are your quotes that confirm that? Hmm? ;)

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On 4/16/2017 at 6:35 PM, Orphalesion said:

If you read my message. you will notice I have NOT compared the Silmarillion with the Worldbook I proposed  a hypothetical Middle Earth Encyclopedia compiled with Tolkiens help detailing the Silmarillion timeline as well as things Tolkien only ever wrote brief sentences about (the Seven Dwarf Tribes, the East Elves/Avari) So basically everything a book detailing everything around before and around the LoTR.

My point was when

And what are you trying to say by telling us that TWOIAF is not a comprehensive history of Planetos? Of course it isn't, because, and this is judging by quotes from interviews:

I doubt a "comprehensive" history of "Planetos" exists, in Martin's mind or otherwise. In Middle Earth everything but the West is pretty much empty as well. Doesn't mean that the Sea of Rhun has story significance. The two only things that ever happened with Rhun in relation to the storyline are 1) It's were the River Running mentioned in the Hobbit ends up  2) Boromir's horn is made from the horns of the wild bulls that live there. It's filler, background material. If Tolkien had released a world book like TWOIAF (and again I'm NOT talking about the Silmarillion) I'm sure we'd had heard quite a bot about the sea and who lives there.

The Worldbook details the regions that have been mentioned in passing during the storyline plus the things in-between. Why those places and nothing east of Asshai? Because we have heard those names and people were curious about them.

As to why take away the time? 3 reason I could tell you right now: 1. Money! Evidence with other fantasy and science fiction universes shows that people are interested in spending money on background material. 2. People asked for info on those mysterious places referred to by characters. 3. It would have been impossible to put all of those details into the books themselves, precisely because Yi-Ti and Sanor are likely not important to the storyline.

Also, I hope you are aware of how righteous your last paragraph is :lol: You demand proof for the idea that the bulk of the stuff from TWOIAF is background material (if you like that better than filler).

Where is your proof that in, in the span of the next two books (and that excludes the sample chapters we already have) all those things, every dark deity, every throwaway civilization from the Sanori to the Winged Men and the Fish People of the Thousand Islands, and the Ibbenese and the Jogos Nhai and the Gemstone Emperors and Southorous and Ulthos and Stygai/Asshai (which Martin has already said we won't visit) and the Bridled Men and the Oily Stone and the warriors warrior women tribes in the bones and Trader Town and that nomadic emperor guy (forget the details) and the Bloodless Men and the Five Forts and everything else mentioned in the World Book will play a vital and important role in the main novels of ASoIaF? Where are your quotes that confirm that? Hmm? ;)

Sorry, I misread your point about the Silmarillion. But you have mischaracterized my point. I'm not saying that 100% of TWOIAF is important. But there are certain elements, such as the legend of the Bloodstone Emperor, that strike me as being potentially super important to the story. It is literally a new version of the events of the Long Night, which is the central plot point of the whole series. And to say that this info is "definitely just background material" is, in my opinion, an absurd assumption to make.

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I don't believe it portends anything other than some interesting fleshing out of Planetos.

"filler" isn't the term I would use but "background material" seems to fit just fine. all in all the worldbook won't have any bearing on the story itself. I mean that in the sense that a song of ice and fire will stand just fine on its own without the worldbook. my saying that is not to denigrate it (I actually continue to find more joy in it than Feast) but a person can read the main series and still get the full story.

but for the sorts of people that populate this forum, any additional information is dissected and then a hundred theories pop up from throwaway lines and just cool world-building facts are unimportant.

an example: Bloodraven. so far I don't think anything has happened in the series that necessitates the reading of the novellas. is it cool that we know who Bloodraven is? OH HELL YES!  but we are given all the information we need about him within the series itself. he serves his purpose even without the additional information.

as somebody mentioned before, the oily black stone stuff is cool and the geodawnians stuff is cool and I find both immensely more interesting than Meereen, but that doesn't make them indispensable to the story.

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11 hours ago, myhalfgroat said:

I don't believe it portends anything other than some interesting fleshing out of Planetos.

"filler" isn't the term I would use but "background material" seems to fit just fine. all in all the worldbook won't have any bearing on the story itself. I mean that in the sense that a song of ice and fire will stand just fine on its own without the worldbook. my saying that is not to denigrate it (I actually continue to find more joy in it than Feast) but a person can read the main series and still get the full story.

but for the sorts of people that populate this forum, any additional information is dissected and then a hundred theories pop up from throwaway lines and just cool world-building facts are unimportant.

an example: Bloodraven. so far I don't think anything has happened in the series that necessitates the reading of the novellas. is it cool that we know who Bloodraven is? OH HELL YES!  but we are given all the information we need about him within the series itself. he serves his purpose even without the additional information.

as somebody mentioned before, the oily black stone stuff is cool and the geodawnians stuff is cool and I find both immensely more interesting than Meereen, but that doesn't make them indispensable to the story.

We don't need the novellas to fully enjoy the story, but they are stuffed full of clues about the main series, namely regarding the Blackfyre rebellions, Bloodraven, the tragedy of Summerhall, Sansa's potential future marriage to fAegon, and potentially the genes of the Lannister family. You can certainly enjoy the main series without reading D&E, but you lack a lot of evidence for figuring out that handful of mysteries, which is exactly what we crazy people on the forum spend our time doing.

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13 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

You can certainly enjoy the main series without reading D&E, but you lack a lot of evidence for figuring out that handful of mysteries

this is my point exactly. there are tons of really interesting things, but none of it is essential to the main series. it's additional information but it's not essential to the main story.

so when the OP says: there's a possible connection between Lovecraft and the oily black stones, what does this portend?

my answer is: nothing at all. I can't imagine that a Lovecraft homage is going to suddenly become some kind of game-changer.

so far, all we have are a few mentions of black stones, a couple of them look similar and a couple others look almost similar. it's a really cool mystery and I subscribe to some incredibly well thought out theories put together by people who've done mind blowing analysis. but that doesn't make it important to the main story. I really wish it was, but it's not.

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The line about the seastone chair made me think of "2001 Space Odyssey", you know the monkeys an the block of smooth black stone. This has got to be the inspiration IMO. 

On 16.4.2017 at 4:13 PM, LynnS said:

 

A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

Reek knew the cost. Seven, he thought, seven fingers. A man can make do with seven fingers. Seven is a sacred number. He remembered how much it had hurt when Lord Ramsay had commanded Skinner to lay his ring finger bare.

The air was wet and heavy, and shallow pools of water dotted the ground. Reek picked his way between them carefully, following the remnants of the log-and-plank road that Robb Stark's vanguard had laid down across the soft ground to speed the passage of his host. Where once a mighty curtain wall had stood, only scattered stones remained, blocks of black basalt so large it must once have taken a hundred men to hoist them into place. Some had sunk so deep into the bog that only a corner showed; others lay strewn about like some god's abandoned toys, cracked and crumbling, spotted with lichen. Last night's rain had left the huge stones wet and glistening, and the morning sunlight made them look as if they were coated in some fine black oil.

 

Interesting! So black oily stone blocks pretty tied with Theon somehow.

This is an interesting passage anyway. It's Reek's PoV, but he is calling himself a man and following the road that Robb's vanguard had laid down, so it's not really Reek at all - and then there's the scattered black rocks. Forshadowing stuff, I assume? Just the seastone chair?

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