Ramsay Killed LW

[Ser Loras The Gay]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I'm not sure I understand your question. What was coincidental about the shadow baby killer?

As for the dragons, I assume you are referring to Dany's dragons and specifically the event of their hatching as a coincidence? I think the dragon eggs were given to Dany on purpose to hatch them in Asshai and it was Jorah's job to make sure that happened.

I was asking how you don't believe in magic in ASOIAF if those events have happened.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

9 minutes ago, Makk said:

It's a fair point, although I think Hoosten was pretty close to breaking point anyway. I'm not sure how much he genuinely cared about little Walder or Merrett who seemed universally despised amongst the Freys, but I concede it is a fair point. I made the statement based on the fact that Little Walder would be an ally to Ramsay whereas big Walder probably wouldn't.

Yes, Ramsay definitely likes LW better, and LW would probably be infinitely more willing to go along with a Ramsay plan. But that's less important than getting Hosteen to attack Wyman. And we have no indication that Merrett was "universally despised". Almost everything we know about him is from his pov chapter. It is implied that Old Walder and some of the members of other Frey branches weren't too fond of him, but the other Crakehall-Freys like Hosteen should like him.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I was asking how you don't believe in magic in ASOIAF if those events have happened.

LOL because I have read a bunch of other GRRM stories and I think Planetos is part of his Thousand Worlds universe. This would mean that the already-established sci-fi concepts of telepathy and telekinesis (and other things) would apply to asoiaf, and anything that appears to be more magical than that is deliberately misleading.  

But as I stated above, most people don't think this, and I don't want to try to convince anyone in this thread that magic isn't real.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

Just now, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But as I stated above, most people don't think this, and I don't want to try to convince anyone in this thread that magic isn't real.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Just now, Ser Loras The Gay said:

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

What does Ramsey having visions contribute to the story? Where do you want his character to go?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

58 minutes ago, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

What does Ramsey having visions contribute to the story? Where do you want his character to go?

I think Ramsay having visions is simply part of the story, just like a million other characters who have visions. What does Lancel having visions contribute to the story?

I don't "want" his character to go anywhere in particular. Where do you want his character to go?

[Renly's Banana]

31 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

What does Lancel having visions contribute to the story?

That he's lost his goddamn mind, for one. 
Although I don't remember him having visions? When did that happen? 

Also, not to drag you into a subject you don't want to dwell in, but is there any proof that ASoIaF is set in this same multi-verse that his other stories are part of? 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, Renly's Banana said:

That he's lost his goddamn mind, for one. 
Although I don't remember him having visions? When did that happen? 

Also, not to drag you into a subject you don't want to dwell in, but is there any proof that ASoIaF is set in this same multi-verse that his other stories are part of? 

Lancel has not lost his mind. He has been receiving visions telling him what to do. Here are the relevant quotes from his conversation with Jaime:

"You sleep down here?"

"Each night I make my bed beneath a different altar, and the Seven send me visions."

Baelor the Blessed once had visions too. Especially when he was fasting. "How long has it been since you've eaten?"

...

"Lancel, you're a bloody fool."

"You are not wrong," said Lancel, "but my folly is behind me, ser. I have asked the Father Above to show me the way, and he has. I am renouncing this lordship and this wife. Hardstone is welcome to the both of them, if he likes. On the morrow I will return to King's Landing and swear my sword to the new High Septon and the Seven. I mean to take vows and join the Warrior's Sons."

Jaime thinks the fasting is causing the visions for both Baelor and Lancel, but it is likely the other way around. The visions may be causing the fasting. We know Bran tends not to eat for unwisely long periods of time when going into Summer. And Melisandre claims to not even need food. And we do know that people receive visions, so it's clear that Lancel is not out of his mind. He was not speaking metaphorically when he said the Father Above has shown him the way. He specifically said he sleeps in the sept and the Seven send him visions every night. Now, I doubt it's actually the Seven, but there you go.

There is a small bit of evidence that asoiaf is set in the Thousand Worlds. First, like I said, the "magic" we have seen so far is all potentially compatible with the things we have seen in the Thousand Worlds stories. And GRRM has said in an interview that in the past he had considered making asoiaf part of the universe. So at a minimum, GRRM thought about it, and that's super telling. One weird thing of note is that one of the representations of the Many-Faced God in the House of Black and White is the Pale Child Bakkalon from the story And Seven Times Never Kill Man. I'm not sure if GRRM is just paying homage to his own story, or if it is legit Bakkalon and that religion somehow made it to Planetos. GRRM has borrowed names from his other stories like Hairy Hal and Greywater Watch and the ship Nightflyer, but the god Bakkalon is fully present in asoiaf in the same form he exists in the Thousand Worlds, so that makes me suspicious.

More importantly, there is the matter of the red comet. GRRM likes to write stories about celestial objects that aren't what they appear to be. The red comet is associated with legendary prophecies and just so happens to show up at super-important moments in history. And there happens to be this telepathic space-traveling creature called the Volcryn in the story Nightflyers, which causes everyone's telepathic abilities to be enhanced when it is nearby. One specific example is that the Volcryn is responsible for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And most significantly, Old Nan, who cannot see the comet, claims she can smell it. I would like to point out that it is impossible to smell a comet. Therefore, I think the red comet is most likely the Volcryn and may be the ultimate party responsible for all the crazy shit going down on Planetos. But this only makes sense if asoiaf is part of the Thousand Worlds.

[Renly's Banana]

@40 Thousand Skeletons
What do you think makes more logical sense: a wounded and sick boy who's recently been completely engulfed in a religious movement and who has also not been eating for days claiming to see visions whenever he sleeps under a statue? 
Or Lancel being the only Sparrow/entire member of the Faith of the Seven/Lannister who's being sent specific visions about a god loving him by Bloodraven/the children/Quaithe/Marwyn/C'Thullu so he can turn even more religious and somehow... subtly affect... people's opinions?
I think this is by far one of the simplest things to dismiss, and Lancel is one of the best examples of the fake visions I was talking about earlier, but that's just me. People see Jesus' face on pieces of toast but that doesn't mean Bloodraven did it.

I will also tell you right now that he's not fasting because he's getting visions. That's specific to Bran and wargs because they get lost living in another body and feeling their sensations instead of their own. Nobody who has ever had any real visions has ever had this problem. Not even Melisandre, who tells people she doesn't eat but is very much hungry during her chapter and orders Davos' son to get her food. Never believe her.

As for the rest... I dunno, man. Those names are just GRRM putting his own easter eggs into the story. The guy has to come up with a lot of names and places; eventually he's gonna reference his own stuff. A comet having a smell or a similar plot device being re-used is not proof. 

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

8 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

@40 Thousand Skeletons
What do you think makes more logical sense: a wounded and sick boy who's recently been completely engulfed in a religious movement and who has also not been eating for days claiming to see visions whenever he sleeps under a statue? 
Or Lancel being the only Sparrow/entire member of the Faith of the Seven/Lannister who's being sent specific visions about a god loving him by Bloodraven/the children/Quaithe/Marwyn/C'Thullu so he can turn even more religious and somehow... subtly affect... people's opinions?
I think this is by far one of the simplest things to dismiss, and Lancel is one of the best examples of the fake visions I was talking about earlier, but that's just me. People see Jesus' face on pieces of toast but that doesn't mean Bloodraven did it.

I will also tell you right now that he's not fasting because he's getting visions. That's specific to Bran and wargs because they get lost living in another body and feeling their sensations instead of their own. Nobody who has ever had any real visions has ever had this problem. Not even Melisandre, who tells people she doesn't eat but is very much hungry during her chapter and orders Davos' son to get her food. Never believe her.

As for the rest... I dunno, man. Those names are just GRRM putting his own easter eggs into the story. The guy has to come up with a lot of names and places; eventually he's gonna reference his own stuff. A comet having a smell or a similar plot device being re-used is not proof. 

This. Well said Renlys Nana.

12 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think Ramsay having visions is simply part of the story, just like a million other characters who have visions. What does Lancel having visions contribute to the story?

I don't "want" his character to go anywhere in particular. Where do you want his character to go?

Every part of a good story has meaning.

I do not want Ramsey's character to become crucial to the fight against the Others, and hope his is a similar arc to Joff. Enjoys power and alienates those who could be allies through cruelty and egotism, dies because those same potential allies prefer a different piece in his place. His meaning seems to be more of a contribution to Theons (a main) character. Now, this is all based on where he is now and I acknowledge that if GRRM decides to develope Ramsey into a more complex and compelling character then my opinions/hopes might change. But that is the point I am trying to make; his character right now does not gain any value or meaning from having special visions. Your theory is fun but not altogether strong, and as this thread progresses you are pulling in more aspects of (gasp!) fan fiction. We have no reason to consider ASOIAF to be involved in some larger universe of sci fi, and if that's your reasoning for why things happen in this story I fear you might be missing out on some of the fun the series.

I personally enjoy stand alone worlds/universes and the imagination it takes to create them. Grouping separate items together takes its own effort of imagination, but it also removes a degree of originality.

Also, why would GRRM hide this connection to other worlds from us? I don't see that our knowing would effect the characters or storylines...

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Actually, it appears that LW was killed before the drums and warhorns started, so that has nothing to do with his timing. He either has magical knowledge of the raven or is super unrealistically lucky.

LW's corpse is frozen, and therefore he has been buried in the snow for a while. I think most people assume, correctly so, that the blood on BW was caused by him being present for the murder.

But if this was Ramsay's plan, he did not leave the body in a random place and just hope they would find it. He likely waited for the raven to arrive with the map and then immediately sent BW to get Hosteen and show him the body. The timing of the entrances of Roose, Ramsay, and Hosteen support this idea.

Well, the castle had been up for hours at the sound of the horns and drums, so they certainly could have started before the killing.

But here is where I disagree with most people as to the timing of the murder. From Theon's POV:

Quote

The scent of it set the horses to screaming. Dogs slid out from under the tables, sniffing. Men rose from the benches. The body in Ser Hosteen's arms sparkled in the torchlight, armored in pink frost. The cold outside had frozen his blood

So first off, we have the scent of the body setting off the horses, which would be unlikely if it was thoroughly frozen. Secondly, it is "armored in pink frost" and the blood is frozen, but this is only what Theon sees on the surface. We have no way of knowing the internal state of the body or how long it lay. Both the frost and the external frozen blood could have happened within an hour, or even as the body was being carried from the ruined keep to the great hall. It's quite a distance, and Hosteen has to trudge through waist deep snow in what is probably sub-zero temperatures.

And sorry, but I just can't swallow the idea that Ramsey would tell BW to march in to the great hall and point the finger at the Manderlys without at least having him change his bloody gloves. If BW was present at the murder, then blood on his hands would basically mean that he murdered his own kin for Ramsey. LW was Ramsey's boy, not BW, so if this was the plan it should have been BW dead.

Plus, we have the fact that no one is perturbed in the least that BW has all this blood on him -- not even the Manderlys who are being accused of the murder. The reason is clear: the body is not frozen solid, and LW got that way because he was the one digging through the bloody snow to uncover the body. Indeed, the very fact that the gloves are "caked" with blood indicates that they came in contact with colder, partially congealed blood, not fresh blood from a stab wound.

So Ramsey could very well have been the murderer. You raise some good points regarding the conversation with Roose and Fat Walda's reaction. But I don't think we need any magic or coincidences regarding the timing because the enemy has been at the gates for hours while the murder has apparently happened fairly recently. But I also don't think Ramsey would want to divide up his forces before the fight with Stannis. It only increases the odds of defeat. He's smart enough to know to fight one battle at a time.

Personally, I think it was the hooded man. I think the entrance to Winterfell was through the crypts, which is why Lady Dustin suddenly decided to visit them: to first uncover the entrance, and then to make tracks in the snow so the HM would not leave a single set of suspicious footprints from the crypts. And I don't think BW had anything to do with LW's murder.

[Tralalala]

I personally hope Ramsay is having some cool magic mumbo jumbo,it's annoying when only the goody two shoes in any media have them. You could argue Euron also has it,but he mostly worked for his success.

[Aegon VII]

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

You are welcome.

Just to clarify, I do think the maester came to Roose first, a few minutes earlier, with the map. In fact, considering that WF had been "awake for hours" from the horns but Roose suspiciously entered "yawning", I assume the arrival of the map is what prompted Roose to enter the hall. And based on the timing of the subsequent entrances of Ramsay and Hosteen, it seems Ramsay was waiting for the raven and told BW to go get Hosteen and show him the body right after the raven arrived.

Then we agree on the letter most likely purposefully being delivered in front of the troops and disagree on Ramsay colluding with BW.

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

You have presented an excellent counter-argument here. I shall now proceed to critique its weaker points:

First of all, you are almost definitely wrong about one thing. SPOILER from the super unofficial Asha fragment screenshot:

Almost defnitely wrong.. I'd like to examine this closer as it's possible I'm not aware of some information. I believe what you're referring to is the screenshot from the John Oliver show which has roughly been translated as,

The leader of the enemy wore silvered plate and mail, inlaid with [detail?] of lapis lazuli. The [crest] of his [helmet/warhelm?] was [tall?], fashioned in the shape of the Twin Towers of House Frey.

I would first note that this is a screenshot of a work in progress and by no means fact, but for this argument I'm fine assuming the text ends up in TWOW. So, lets compare it with our description of BW's armor,

The Walders were mounting up, he saw. They'd brought fine armor up from the Twins, shining silver plate with enameled blue chasings. Big Walder's crest was shaped like a castle, while Little Walder favored streamers of blue and grey silk. Their shields and surcoats also set them apart from each other. Little Walder quartered the twin towers of Frey with the brindled boar of his grandmother's House and the plowman of his mother's: Crakehall and Darry, respectively. Big Walder's quarterings were the tree-and-ravens of House Blackwood and the twining snakes of the Paeges.

I really do not think these descriptions are close enough for us to say that the person leading the Freys into battle is a relatively small nine year old boy. Yes, they both have Silver and Blue colorings and have a similar crest, but BW's is described as a castle whereas this knights is described as the twin towers. Could be the same, could be different. Also, in Asha's chapter mail is described whereas it is not in BW's, unless enameled chasings count as mail (not familiar with chasings). Also, inlaid with lapis lazuli speaks to there being actual gems in it, whereas BW's is just described as enameled blue chasings. These are not similar enough to assume BW is the one Asha sees. Is there something I am missing?

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

While BW may have been thinking that this would be a good way to kill a bunch of Crakehall- and Royce-Freys, I think it is a super risky plan considering it carries a large risk of being sent off into the snow to die with the other Freys.

Even if BW did get sent into battle, he would very easily be able to play the cowards game and not expose himself to much risk. Just sit back with some knights guarding him. I don't imagine many nine yo's were out there doing much more than squiring to begin with, and as far as we know BW is no ones squire, so he would most likely not even be as involved as squires.

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Luton playing dice and dying seems like an odd red herring. Red herrings are usually a bit more obvious, like Cersei being blamed for the death of Jon Arryn. It could be a red herring, but I would say, wow George, that sure was one subtle red herring. The use of the language "Ramsay silenced him" as opposed to "Ramsay gave him mercy" or something seems like a subtle clue. "Silenced" is perfectly appropriate, because Luton was dying "loudly", but it could carry the double meaning of silencing Luton's secrets.

Red herrings are more often more obvious but that does not make it any less likely that an author as detailed as grrm isn't going to put them in some very hidden places for only the most avid readers. For example, I would consider Stannis's comment about, "you may hear I am dead" a red herring if Mance ends up being the author. 99% of readers wouldn't understand why, but for those that really studied the PL and considered all the theories, it's a pretty big misleading (or not!) clue.

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think you missed my point here. Yes, obviously murdering LW in this fashion at any point in time would raise tensions, but the timing is vital if Ramsay's plan was to get the Freys sent out to fight and die.

I disagree, these elevated tensions are going to stay elevated. Sure there could have been a few nights of manderlys killing a few freys and vice versa, but conflicts like this only escalate once catalyzed. Even if they didn't get sent out for a week or two, the Freys and Manderlys would still be the ones Roose would want to send out to stop their attacks back and forth.

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Roose seems to have a plan to send out men to fight Stannis basically to kill them.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Yes Roose knows that the people marching out have a higher risk of death and will want to send out the most expendable troops but I guarantee he'd be happy if none of his soldiers died and they just obliterated Stannis. I think it's a jump to say he's sending people out to kill them. Their potential deaths is a calculated risk.

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Tensions are high, and food is low, so this is a simple conclusion to come to. But Roose can't just tell people to wander off blindly into the snow. That would be bull shit. He needed to wait until he had the map. If Ramsay had elevated tensions before the raven arrived, everyone may have just stayed in the castle and been super angry 24/7. And if Ramsay had waited until after the raven, it's too late. Roose already would have sent out non-Freys to fight Stannis. Ramsay's timing was somehow perfect. He killed LW hours before the raven arrived. His timing was so perfect that LW was never even reported missing. He just shows up dead at the exact perfect moment for the Freys to get screwed over.

I think your painting the picture in WF to be worse than it was concerning food. They have food, they have dead horses. Relatively they have much more than stannis. The lack of food is not much of a concern at this point, IMO. The tensions are however. You say that if Ramsay was too early, everyone would be super angry 24/7, well yeah, and they'd still be that way when the map arrived and Roose had to send people out. Would them being super angry for a couple weeks be any different then them being angry for 10 seconds. Either way the people who are super angry (freys and manderlys) are the smart choice to send out.

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

This last point is the only one I think we actually disagree on completely. It seems that you (and a ton of people) are suggesting that Ramsay was thinking to himself something along the lines of, "Well, we will probably find those boys because they are on foot and we have hounds tracking their direwolves. But on the off-chance we fail, this might be a great opportunity to convince everyone that Bran and Rickon are dead and blame it on Theon. I'm sure we can find a couple of boys about the right age nearby and kill their family. I'll just take a few minutes to go to their rooms and pick out some clothes and grab some recognizable jewelry."

I would say there's a fair chance he saw/ heard of the millers boys before even setting out. Assuming he didn't though it's very simple, Ramsay is very familiar with how all skinless men look the same. He's a pragmatist and he knows he may find them or he may not, doesn't matter too much, because he knows either way he's going to make it appear as though he's succeeded and use it to his advantage. Not finding the starks serves him just as well as finding them at this point.

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I don't buy it. Considering the fact that Jojen received a vision ahead of time of Ramsay skinning the miller's sons, I think it is super likely that Ramsay received a similar vision. Is it possible Ramsay was just covering his bases? Sure, anything is possible. Does it make complete sense? No, I don't think it does. If that turns out to be the case, I would be disappointed with GRRM.

I do think it makes complete sense. Ramsay plays the game to ensure he wins, even if it means cheating. His actions here are consistent with that. Now could Ramsay be in touch or related to the gods somehow, absolutely, I just don't see evidence of it here.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

19 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

@40 Thousand Skeletons
What do you think makes more logical sense: a wounded and sick boy who's recently been completely engulfed in a religious movement and who has also not been eating for days claiming to see visions whenever he sleeps under a statue? 
Or Lancel being the only Sparrow/entire member of the Faith of the Seven/Lannister who's being sent specific visions about a god loving him by Bloodraven/the children/Quaithe/Marwyn/C'Thullu so he can turn even more religious and somehow... subtly affect... people's opinions?
I think this is by far one of the simplest things to dismiss, and Lancel is one of the best examples of the fake visions I was talking about earlier, but that's just me. People see Jesus' face on pieces of toast but that doesn't mean Bloodraven did it.

I will also tell you right now that he's not fasting because he's getting visions. That's specific to Bran and wargs because they get lost living in another body and feeling their sensations instead of their own. Nobody who has ever had any real visions has ever had this problem. Not even Melisandre, who tells people she doesn't eat but is very much hungry during her chapter and orders Davos' son to get her food. Never believe her.

As for the rest... I dunno, man. Those names are just GRRM putting his own easter eggs into the story. The guy has to come up with a lot of names and places; eventually he's gonna reference his own stuff. A comet having a smell or a similar plot device being re-used is not proof. 

I do not think Lancel is the only sparrow being sent visions. I think Marwyn has been using his glass candle in conjunction with the Brave Companions sacking septs to create the sparrow movement. And Lancel confessing his sins would have gotten Cersei arrested. And she is planning on using UnGregor in a trial by combat, a zombie created by Oberyn and Qyburn, both members of team Martell.  

I think you missed my point about the names. I do think that when he borrows names from old work it's just easter eggs. By contrast, the Pale Child Bakkalon is in asoiaf as it exists in another story. That's suspicious.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Then we agree on the letter most likely purposefully being delivered in front of the troops and disagree on Ramsay colluding with BW.

Almost defnitely wrong.. I'd like to examine this closer as it's possible I'm not aware of some information. I believe what you're referring to is the screenshot from the John Oliver show which has roughly been translated as,

The leader of the enemy wore silvered plate and mail, inlaid with [detail?] of lapis lazuli. The [crest] of his [helmet/warhelm?] was [tall?], fashioned in the shape of the Twin Towers of House Frey.

I would first note that this is a screenshot of a work in progress and by no means fact, but for this argument I'm fine assuming the text ends up in TWOW. So, lets compare it with our description of BW's armor,

The Walders were mounting up, he saw. They'd brought fine armor up from the Twins, shining silver plate with enameled blue chasings. Big Walder's crest was shaped like a castle, while Little Walder favored streamers of blue and grey silk. Their shields and surcoats also set them apart from each other. Little Walder quartered the twin towers of Frey with the brindled boar of his grandmother's House and the plowman of his mother's: Crakehall and Darry, respectively. Big Walder's quarterings were the tree-and-ravens of House Blackwood and the twining snakes of the Paeges.

I really do not think these descriptions are close enough for us to say that the person leading the Freys into battle is a relatively small nine year old boy. Yes, they both have Silver and Blue colorings and have a similar crest, but BW's is described as a castle whereas this knights is described as the twin towers. Could be the same, could be different. Also, in Asha's chapter mail is described whereas it is not in BW's, unless enameled chasings count as mail (not familiar with chasings). Also, inlaid with lapis lazuli speaks to there being actual gems in it, whereas BW's is just described as enameled blue chasings. These are not similar enough to assume BW is the one Asha sees. Is there something I am missing?

Even if BW did get sent into battle, he would very easily be able to play the cowards game and not expose himself to much risk. Just sit back with some knights guarding him. I don't imagine many nine yo's were out there doing much more than squiring to begin with, and as far as we know BW is no ones squire, so he would most likely not even be as involved as squires.

Red herrings are more often more obvious but that does not make it any less likely that an author as detailed as grrm isn't going to put them in some very hidden places for only the most avid readers. For example, I would consider Stannis's comment about, "you may hear I am dead" a red herring if Mance ends up being the author. 99% of readers wouldn't understand why, but for those that really studied the PL and considered all the theories, it's a pretty big misleading (or not!) clue.

I disagree, these elevated tensions are going to stay elevated. Sure there could have been a few nights of manderlys killing a few freys and vice versa, but conflicts like this only escalate once catalyzed. Even if they didn't get sent out for a week or two, the Freys and Manderlys would still be the ones Roose would want to send out to stop their attacks back and forth.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Yes Roose knows that the people marching out have a higher risk of death and will want to send out the most expendable troops but I guarantee he'd be happy if none of his soldiers died and they just obliterated Stannis. I think it's a jump to say he's sending people out to kill them. Their potential deaths is a calculated risk.

I think your painting the picture in WF to be worse than it was concerning food. They have food, they have dead horses. Relatively they have much more than stannis. The lack of food is not much of a concern at this point, IMO. The tensions are however. You say that if Ramsay was too early, everyone would be super angry 24/7, well yeah, and they'd still be that way when the map arrived and Roose had to send people out. Would them being super angry for a couple weeks be any different then them being angry for 10 seconds. Either way the people who are super angry (freys and manderlys) are the smart choice to send out.

I would say there's a fair chance he saw/ heard of the millers boys before even setting out. Assuming he didn't though it's very simple, Ramsay is very familiar with how all skinless men look the same. He's a pragmatist and he knows he may find them or he may not, doesn't matter too much, because he knows either way he's going to make it appear as though he's succeeded and use it to his advantage. Not finding the starks serves him just as well as finding them at this point.

I do think it makes complete sense. Ramsay plays the game to ensure he wins, even if it means cheating. His actions here are consistent with that. Now could Ramsay be in touch or related to the gods somehow, absolutely, I just don't see evidence of it here.

Now that I'm reading the actual text again, I'm inclined to agree with you. It may not be BW.

I think in this particular battle every single Frey is going to die, but obviously BW probably doesn't know that.

I agree with what you said about sending troops out to die, I was just being succinct.

I still think you kind of missed my point about the whole timing thing. The spectacular timing was necessary to force Roose's hand into sending out the Freys. At any other moment, Roose would have sent out non-Freys, even if tensions were super high. The Freys were absolutely not the smart choice for Roose because they are super loyal to him, unlike the northerners.

[Aegon VII]

On April 7, 2017 at 11:22 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I still think you kind of missed my point about the whole timing thing. The spectacular timing was necessary to force Roose's hand into sending out the Freys. At any other moment, Roose would have sent out non-Freys, even if tensions were super high.

Land that's where I disagree. If tensions are super high, roses hand is still forced to send out frees and whomever they're fighting with. When tensions are high Roose will always have an incentive to send out the quarreling houses. No matter if they've been quarreling for 2 minutes or two weeks.

On April 7, 2017 at 11:22 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The Freys were absolutely not the smart choice for Roose because they are super loyal to him, unlike the northerners.

That is true, but as long as they are causing trouble they are a threat to the morale of the entire wf scenario and he has an incentive to send them out. 

 

I wont deny that there is a good reason for Ramsay to try to cause turmoil amongst thefreys but I think this would be a terrible way to go about it and does not really make sense. So Ramsay wants to kill LW and blame the meanderlys and the best way he thinks to do this is to murder the kid in front of his cousin and then have his cousin be the lie teller. This when BW is less close with Ramsay then LW. That's a huge unesecary risk for no reason. BW could just tell on him once he's safe back at the twins. Plus if Ramsay did kill him why are BW's gloves bloody? Did Ramsay make the scrawny 9 yo do the dirty work when moving his overweight cousin. Doesn't make much sense.

instead all the clues point to BW. Bloody gloves, hesitates when telling his story, and the consequences of his actions are going to lead to many of the people ahead of him in the line of succession dying, exactly what needs to happen for him to become lord. Plus I believe we have seen evidence that BW is messed up enough to do it, as I examine in my BW analysis.

[Darkstream]

On 06/04/2017 at 8:22 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL because I have read a bunch of other GRRM stories and I think Planetos is part of his Thousand Worlds universe. This would mean that the already-established sci-fi concepts of telepathy and telekinesis (and other things) would apply to asoiaf, and anything that appears to be more magical than that is deliberately misleading.  

But as I stated above, most people don't think this, and I don't want to try to convince anyone in this thread that magic isn't real.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/464984.html?thread=23461208#t23461208

Quote

Asimov and Heinlein, late in life, both seemed to feel the urge to merge all of their books and stories into one huge continuity.

So far I do not feel the urge. No, Westeros is not one of the Thousand Worlds.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

3 hours ago, Darkstream said:

http://grrm.livejournal.com/464984.html?thread=23461208#t23461208

Interesting, never saw that quote. Well regardless, I think the evidence indicates that asoiaf follows Thousand Worlds style rules for telepathy and telekinesis. Nothing we have seen so far would be impossible or "magic" in a Thousand Worlds story.

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Interesting, never saw that quote. Well regardless, I think the evidence indicates that asoiaf follows Thousand Worlds style rules for telepathy and telekinesis. Nothing we have seen so far would be impossible or "magic" in a Thousand Worlds story.

Agreed, I'm not so sure I subscribe as to so, but it wouldn't be the first time GRRM has incorporated ideas and principles into ASOIAF that he has used in his other stories.