Oberyn and his scheming? Theories?

[House Beaudreau]

Oberyn Martell was defiantly up to something in his younger days. Traveling the free cities, learning a lot I mean a lot about poisons, running with the second sons, starting his own free company then leaving it to come back to Dorne. I forget the actual time line but it not specific to the question Im asking. I know there's that whole PJ Dorne theory out there but I not really interested in that on here. I more want to know what he was up too? Did he have a plan for all of this or was he just a younger brother searching for adventure and meaning in his life.

He did the majority of this stuff before Elia was murders.... how much did that mess with his plans? was it all about revenge or was that just added on after Elia was murder.

I guess I'm asking were the Martells planning something war/ revolution/ change even before Roberts rebellion. 

[Renly's Banana]

I doubt it. Doran's scheming didn't start (as far as we know from everything we've been told in-text) until Elia's murder. Nothing suggests that Oberyn was up to anything big or that they were even working together. Elia's murder seems to be what brought Oberyn back and made him start working closer with Doran. We know he sent Oberyn to Braavos to negotiate Viserys' betrothal to Arianne and that was the beginning of Doran's snail-paced master plan. 

Oberyn was just a guy that lived his life to the extreme because he was the second son and had no responsibilities. He liked fighting and learning and poisons and fucking; I don't think there's anything too deep in there. Sometimes you want the grand master plan, but you need the bad poosy.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Oberyn was sent to Essos after that little thing with Lord Yronwood's paramour and Lord Yronwood died of the wounds he got in the duel with Oberyn. Dude was exiled.

His interest in poisons may have been acquired during his earlier years. He was fostered at Sandstone, which is the seat of House Qorgyle. Lord Qorgyle may have arranged for the murder via scorpion of Lord Lyonel Tyrell. This was back during the Dance of Dragons, but if any house in Dorne is into poison House Qorgyle, with three scorpions on their arms, would be a safe bet.

Don't forget Oberyn also spent some time at the Citadel working on a maester's chain before he got bored and decided to go do something else. Young Oby seems to have had a rather short attention span. 

Side note: he forged six links. I'd be interested to know which courses he completed before bailing.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Once Oberyn realized he wasn't skilled enough to be as good of a swordsman as his uncle Lewyn he roamed Essos trying to find the best poisons to cheat with in duels against his betters.

 

[Lord Lannister]

I think Oberyn was what he seemed, an individual who wanted to see what the world had to offer, experiencing every thrill and pleasure he could.

It's fairly obvious his actions in King's Landing were more his idea than part of Doran's master plan.

[Lord Wraith]

23 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

Oberyn Martell was defiantly up to something in his younger days. Traveling the free cities, learning a lot I mean a lot about poisons, running with the second sons, starting his own free company then leaving it to come back to Dorne. I forget the actual time line but it not specific to the question Im asking. I know there's that whole PJ Dorne theory out there but I not really interested in that on here. I more want to know what he was up too? Did he have a plan for all of this or was he just a younger brother searching for adventure and meaning in his life.

He did the majority of this stuff before Elia was murders.... how much did that mess with his plans? was it all about revenge or was that just added on after Elia was murder.

I guess I'm asking were the Martells planning something war/ revolution/ change even before Roberts rebellion. 

Here is my rough timeline of the life of Oberyn Martell:

After, Oberyn left Dorne to explore the Free Cities. There he dabbled in the dark arts, learning the secrets of poisoning and far more, only to return to the Seven Kingdoms to study at the Citadel. He stayed there long enough to forge six links of a maester’s chain, and then he moved on again. He fought in the Disputed Lands, rode with a mercenary company for a time, and had many exploits of love, battles, wars, and more. - From APP

 

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He had traveled in the Free Cities, learning the poisoner's trade and perhaps arts darker still, if rumors could be believed. The Red Viper went to Oldtown, thence across to the narrow sea to Lys, though none dared call it exile.

274 - 276?

 

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He had studied at the Citadel, going so far as to forge six links of a maester's chain before he grew bored.

276 - 279?

 

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He had soldiered in the Disputed Lands across the narrow sea, riding with the Second Sons for a time before forming his own company.

279 - 281?

 

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His tourneys, his battles, his duels, his horses, his carnality . . . it was said that he bedded men and women both, and had begotten bastard girls all over Dorne. The sand snakes, men called his daughters. So far as Tyrion had heard, Prince Oberyn had never fathered a son.

Tournaments:
Harrenhal 281 AC
Storm’s End 276 – 278 AC
Unnamed (High Garden?) – 285 – 290 AC

Three phases of life:
1. Birth and Boyhood: 258 - 274
2. Exile and Exploration: 274 - 284
3. Dorne and Death: 284 - 300

Birth and Boyhood: 258 – 274 AC

Oberyn Nymeros Martell is born in 258 AC at Sunspear in Dorne. He was known as the “terror” of the pools during his time in the water gardens. He was fostered at Sandstone with House Qorgyle in 265. (Note: this is an estimation, we know that Doran was fostered at Salt Shore at the age of 9) An interesting thing to note is that the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch prior to Jeor Mormont was also from House Qorgyle.

In 271 AC Oberyn was in Oldtown and we don’t really know why a 13 year old Prince of Doran would be hanging out in Oldtown brothels. 

In 272 Obara is born in Oldtown to a whore. Oberyn doesn’t claim her for several years.

In 273 AC the Princess of Dorne takes Oberyn and Elia on a trip to find them marriages. The places they visited were Starfall, the Arbor, Oldtown, the Shield Islands, Crakehall, and finally Casterly Rock. Interesting to note that only Starfall is in Dorne. The Arbor, Oldtown (again) and the Shield Islands are in the Reach. Crakehall and Casterly Rock are of course in the Westerlands. The true purpose is to marry either Oberyn or Elia to Jaime or Cersei. The Princess of Dorne and Joanna Lannister were close friends who had met at court and served as handmaidens to Princess Rhaella. Sadly Joanna had just died and the Dornish were rebuffed by Tywin Lannister.

In 274 AC is in Yronwood and is caught in bed with the paramour of its Lord Edgar Yronwood. The infamous duel occurs and Edgar dies from his wounds. People believe Oberyn poisoned his blade and he is known as “The Red Viper” henceforth. Due to House Yronwood’s outrage Oberyn is “exiled from Dorne.

Exile and Exploration: 274 – 284 AC

In 274 AC Oberyn leaves Dorne and goes back to Oldtown. From there he spends some time in Lys likely learning more about poison and perhaps darker arts.

In 275 AC has gone from Lys to Volantis and beds a noblewomen of the Old Blood and 9 months later Nymeria is born in Volantis.

In 276 AC is back again in Oldtown and starts his studying at the Citadel. He likely also claims Obara as his daughter during this time. Meet’s Tyene’s mother who is a Septa in the Reach. Probably at the motherhouse in Oldtown or from the Starry Sept.

In 277 AC Tyene is born in Reach, you would think that he takes her immediately but apparently she used to read to baby Tyene from the Seven Pointed Star. Oberyn’s studies continue at the Citadel.

Oberyn attends a Tournament in Storm’s End, we are unsure of the exact date but it happens between 276 – 278 AC.

In 279 AC Prince Rhaegar Targaryen marries Elia of Dorne. We don’t know that Oberyn attended but I find it hard to believe that Oberyn would miss the wedding of his beloved sister.

In 280 AC Oberyn joins the Second Son and signs for a year and fights with the Company. He also meets Sarella’s mother a Summer Islander, the Captain of the Feathered Kiss.

In 281 AC Sarella is born. Also during this year is the great Tournament at Harrenhal. Oberyn returned to the Seven Kingdoms to participate. He also danced with Ashara Dayne during the Tournament.

In 282 AC her returned to Essos and founded a sellsword company. We are not sure of its name. We are only told it that he runs the company for “a time.” Did it disband? Is it still around with someone else in charge?

In 283 AC Robert’s Rebellion ends. I think Oberyn was overseas during the time or we would have fought, or done something to assist Elia.

Dorne and Death: 284 – 300

284/285 AC Oberyn returns to Dorne and attempts to raise Dorne for Viserys. He likely met Ellaria Sand during this period. Doran and Oberyn are talked down by Jon Arryn and Prince Lewyn’s bones are returned to Sunspear. 

Soon after Oberyn goes to Braavos to sign the Pact with Willem Darry. The Sealord of Braavos is a witness. Viserys will wed Arianne Martell. Oddly Willem never mentions this to Viserys or Dany.

285/286 AC – Elia Sand born aka Lady Lance. Named after Oberyn’s dead sister.

285-290 there is the infamous Tournament where Oberyn jousts against Willas Tyrell. Willas’s horse falls on him and he is crippled. Oberyn sends his own maester to help him. Willas and Oberyn become friends but most of the Tyrells blame Oberyn. 

287/288 AC Obella is born. Named after Oberyn himself.

291/292 AC Dorea is born. Named after Doran Martell.

In 293 AC Loreza born. Possibly named Doran and Oberyn’s mother.

300 AC dies in single combat with Gregor Clegane in King's Landing.

Other things that happened during this time was the training of Daemon Sand, the bastard of Godsgrace. He was Oberyn’s squire and possible lover. He was knighted by him. He was with Oberyn in King’s Landing when he died.

 

[Tralalala]

Why didn't the yronwoods demand he be sent to the wall or even executed? I personally view him as a rich bitch that has time to spent on whatever holds his fancy. And can't understand why is he such a fan favorite?

[Ralphis Baratheon]

31 minutes ago, Tralalala said:

Why didn't the yronwoods demand he be sent to the wall or even executed? I personally view him as a rich bitch that has time to spent on whatever holds his fancy. And can't understand why is he such a fan favorite?

Because he spent the last 15 years of his life training to specifically fight and beat Gregor Clegane in a duel and still lost even using poison?

[Tralalala]

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Because he spent the last 15 years of his life training to specifically fight and beat Gregor Clegane in a duel and still lost even using poison?

Yeah and not only that but the martell's revange is plain stupid for those years they could've had Tywin Tyrion Jaime and Cersei poisoned atleast a 100 times each,and the mauntain too but no,they plot some far fetched dumbass scheme that does nothing.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

12 minutes ago, Tralalala said:

Yeah and not only that but the martell's revange is plain stupid for those years they could've had Tywin Tyrion Jaime and Cersei poisoned atleast a 100 times each,and the mauntain too but no,they plot some far fetched dumbass scheme that does nothing.

Maybe Doran really didn't care about Elia that much? If Robert had found out about Jamie and Cersei early on in their marriage and smashed them both with his war hammer do you think Tywin would sit around doing nothing like Doran did? 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

12 hours ago, Tralalala said:

Why didn't the yronwoods demand he be sent to the wall or even executed? I personally view him as a rich bitch that has time to spent on whatever holds his fancy. And can't understand why is he such a fan favorite?

Because there was absolutely no proof that he used poison. Lord Yronwood died of infected wounds. The poison thing was a rumor. And really, Yronwood challenged a teenager to a duel over his paramour. If it had been his wife that would make sense. Old Edgar was the one who looked like a total idiot.

Oberyn drew first blood in a duel that was not his idea. Nobody gets sent to the Wall or executed for that.

10 hours ago, Tralalala said:

Yeah and not only that but the martell's revange is plain stupid for those years they could've had Tywin Tyrion Jaime and Cersei poisoned atleast a 100 times each,and the mauntain too but no,they plot some far fetched dumbass scheme that does nothing.

No, they couldn't have. And THAT would be a stupid plan. You can poison one, maybe two people before somebody starts noticing...especially when you have a member of the family who is known for being associated with poison. That's murder, and you can be executed or sent to the Wall for it. They didn't just want Tywin dead, they wanted to prove he was responsible for what happened to Elia and her children, and then see that he suffered the consequences.

That's the difference between mere revenge and actual justice. Doran was after justice. Oberyn was after justice. If they just wanted revenge there would have been no reason to try and get Gregor to confess that Tywin gave him the order. Just kill the brute and be done with it, and go after Tywin later. Really if they'd only wanted revenge, Oberyn would still be alive.

Also, they didn't have anything against Tyrion or Cersei. Jaime maybe because he didn't manage to protect Elia and the kids. It was mostly Tywin, Gregor Clegane, and Amory Lorch they wanted.

10 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Maybe Doran really didn't care about Elia that much? If Robert had found out about Jamie and Cersei early on in their marriage and smashed them both with his war hammer do you think Tywin would sit around doing nothing like Doran did? 

Tywin doesn't give a damn about justice or what's right. He and Doran are so far apart they might as well be from different planets. Doran is careful and slow because of how much he cares about what happened to Elia and her children. Tywin would react swiftly and brutally because House Lannister must be feared. Big difference.

Also, Tywin has the money and soldiers to do stuff like that. Doran has to be more creative than just smashing people because he lacks the resources to do it. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Because there was absolutely no proof that he used poison. Lord Yronwood died of infected wounds. The poison thing was a rumor. And really, Yronwood challenged a teenager to a duel over his paramour. If it had been his wife that would make sense. Old Edgar was the one who looked like a total idiot.

Oberyn drew first blood in a duel that was not his idea. Nobody gets sent to the Wall or executed for that.

No, they couldn't have. And THAT would be a stupid plan. You can poison one, maybe two people before somebody starts noticing...especially when you have a member of the family who is known for being associated with poison. That's murder, and you can be executed or sent to the Wall for it. They didn't just want Tywin dead, they wanted to prove he was responsible for what happened to Elia and her children, and then see that he suffered the consequences.

That's the difference between mere revenge and actual justice. Doran was after justice. Oberyn was after justice. If they just wanted revenge there would have been no reason to try and get Gregor to confess that Tywin gave him the order. Just kill the brute and be done with it, and go after Tywin later. Really if they'd only wanted revenge, Oberyn would still be alive.

Also, they didn't have anything against Tyrion or Cersei. Jaime maybe because he didn't manage to protect Elia and the kids. It was mostly Tywin, Gregor Clegane, and Amory Lorch they wanted.

Tywin doesn't give a damn about justice or what's right. He and Doran are so far apart they might as well be from different planets. Doran is careful and slow because of how much he cares about what happened to Elia and her children. Tywin would react swiftly and brutally because House Lannister must be feared. Big difference.

Also, Tywin has the money and soldiers to do stuff like that. Doran has to be more creative than just smashing people because he lacks the resources to do it. 

Yeah but through fear your family is kept save. If you cannot be loved as a ruler you should be feared. Some would even say it's better to be feared then loved by your people in regards to keeping you and yours safe, especially in the settings they live in. Doran acted slow and carefully but Oberyn wanted to raise Dorne for Viserys right away and I'm sure he loved Elia as much if not more then Doran as they were closer in age and spent their childhoods together. I agree that Dorne doesn't have the resources the Westerlands did but Dorne should have been given some sort of justice for Elia even at the end of RR when they were at their weakest. I have no idea how the meeting between Doran and Jon Arryn went down but neither does anyone else and so Doran looked weak when he couldn't even get one scapegoat Lannister soldier sent to Dorne for a trail for Elia Martell's rape/murder. Even if it was a soldier that didn't do the deed that Tywin easily could have spared. All we know Doran got from the meeting with Jon Arryn was his uncles bones. No punishment for Elia and her children's murderers and no good faith marriage betrothals that we know of.

From my view Doran has failed to get justice for Elia and her kids in my opinion. As far as Dorne is concerned Robert got killed by a bore and Tywin was murdered by his son. Amory Lorch was killed by Roose and Hoat. Even Gregor Clegane lives a second life of sorts. I assume it was part of Doran's plans to have these people killed by his schemes to get justice for Elia but from what I can see they all died without his involvement, except for Gregor because of poison. If Doran felt the only way he could get justice for Elia was to have them all confess what they did and who ordered what and when then it was a pie in the sky plan in my opinion. Doran and his allies would have to win a war against Tywin and his allies while hoping they all stayed alive long enough for a trail which was never really likely. I feel like Doran's best shot at having Tywin and all he holds dear destroyed was somehow finding out about Jamie/Cersei then leaking the proof to Robert and have then all destroy each other.

[House Beaudreau]

On 4/7/2017 at 9:26 PM, Lord Wraith said:

In 276 AC is back again in Oldtown and starts his studying at the Citadel. He likely also claims Obara as his daughter during this time. Meet’s Tyene’s mother who is a Septa in the Reach. Probably at the motherhouse in Oldtown or from the Starry Sept.

So at this point Oberyn has learned a lot about Poison, He actually has a considerable amount of knowledge. He allegedly poisoned his spear used to kill Lord Yronwood and this poison fooled the Yronwood maester. This is all before he studied at the Citadel. In 276 he starts studying at the Citadel and forges his chain.

Qyburn and Marwyn were definitely at the Citadel at this point.  It begs the question how much did these guys learn from Oberyn? Considering Oberyn's poison once again fools the Maesters knowledge when Pycelle doesn't really know about the poison slowly killing him, but Qyburn does and is able to make (FrankenGregor) Robert Strong. Pycelle not knowing and Qyburn knowing almost proves that Oberyn knew more that what Maesters are taught as a standards.

Can't we speculate that Oberyn, Marwyn and Qyburn would all have a bunch in common and probably formed a friendship because they are like minded. We don't have a date on when Qyburn was stripped of his chain, but when he was stripped could it have been Oberyn making a place for him in his sellsword company?

On 4/7/2017 at 9:26 PM, Lord Wraith said:

In 282 AC her returned to Essos and founded a sellsword company. We are not sure of its name. We are only told it that he runs the company for “a time.” Did it disband? Is it still around with someone else in charge?

What if around this time above, is when Qyburn was kicked out of the Citadel. 

It seems really likely that the Brave Companions were formed by Oberyn. My reasoning is first that I think Oberyn and Qyburn formed a bond in Oldtown and Oberyn brought him into his sellsword company. The Text tells us that Oberyn formed a sellsword company but we don't know who? The Brave Companions are the only major sellsword company that we don't really get a lot of information about them like how long they've been around, and who formed them? 

        

  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I always thought that Oberyn was more adventurer, who was bored easily, than scheming and he liked learning things but not to be a maester with all those restrictions.

[Lord Wraith]

On 4/9/2017 at 0:11 PM, House Beaudreau said:

So at this point Oberyn has learned a lot about Poison, He actually has a considerable amount of knowledge. He allegedly poisoned his spear used to kill Lord Yronwood and this poison fooled the Yronwood maester. This is all before he studied at the Citadel. In 276 he starts studying at the Citadel and forges his chain.

Qyburn and Marwyn were definitely at the Citadel at this point.  It begs the question how much did these guys learn from Oberyn? Considering Oberyn's poison once again fools the Maesters knowledge when Pycelle doesn't really know about the poison slowly killing him, but Qyburn does and is able to make (FrankenGregor) Robert Strong. Pycelle not knowing and Qyburn knowing almost proves that Oberyn knew more that what Maesters are taught as a standards.

Can't we speculate that Oberyn, Marwyn and Qyburn would all have a bunch in common and probably formed a friendship because they are like minded. We don't have a date on when Qyburn was stripped of his chain, but when he was stripped could it have been Oberyn making a place for him in his sellsword company?

What if around this time above, is when Qyburn was kicked out of the Citadel. 

It seems really likely that the Brave Companions were formed by Oberyn. My reasoning is first that I think Oberyn and Qyburn formed a bond in Oldtown and Oberyn brought him into his sellsword company. The Text tells us that Oberyn formed a sellsword company but we don't know who? The Brave Companions are the only major sellsword company that we don't really get a lot of information about them like how long they've been around, and who formed them?  

While I agree that Marwyn and likely Qyburn are in league with the brothers Martell I really don't think the Brave Companions was Oberyn's sellsword company. IMO there are either 1) not revealed yet 2) crackpot: Gallant Men, 3) slightly tinfoil: the Stormcrows.

Also considering that even Tyrion knows enough about Oberyn's past to know he had a sellsword company. I doubt that Tywin Lannister would hire the former sellswords that belonged to Oberyn. I have also read PJ's theory on Oberyn and the Brave Companions but it doesn't add up. Having Qyburn there as a Dornish agent does however make a great deal of sense.

[Darkstream]

On 07/04/2017 at 6:35 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Once Oberyn realized he wasn't skilled enough to be as good of a swordsman as his uncle Lewyn he roamed Essos trying to find the best poisons to cheat with in duels against his betters.

 

 

On 08/04/2017 at 2:25 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Because he spent the last 15 years of his life training to specifically fight and beat Gregor Clegane in a duel and still lost even using poison?

It's interesting how you downplay Oberyn's skills, while ignoring the fact that he was clearly the the superior fighter against Gregor, as well, you are dismissing the actual reason why he was defeated. You also seem to be implying that using poison would give him an advantage during the fight, when it seems apparent that the poison he was using didn't effect Gregor until afterwards, when the wounds that Oberyn was skilled enough to inflict, had the chance to fester and become infected due to the poison.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

40 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

 

It's interesting how you downplay Oberyn's skills, while ignoring the fact that he was clearly the the superior fighter against Gregor, as well, you are dismissing the actual reason why he was defeated. You also seem to be implying that using poison would give him an advantage during the fight, when it seems apparent that the poison he was using didn't effect Gregor until afterwards, when the wounds that Oberyn was skilled enough to inflict, had the chance to fester and become infected due to the poison.

Oberyn spent 15 years preparing himself to specifically fight Ser. Gregor which is why he brought an 8 foot spear to King's Landing. Still The Mountain crushed Oberyn and won the duel and may have survived if he wasn't poisoned. Now if Oberyn was the "superior fighter" why would he need poison at all when he intended to kill the Mountain in the duel? Ser. Gregor was down but not out obviously and he was able to prevail despite not game planning for Oberyn like The Viper did for him.

Yeah I hate poison, I got bit by a snake when I was a teenager and almost died. So the fact he had to use it when he was the "superior fighter" as you say makes me dislike his tactics. 

[Darkstream]

On 11/04/2017 at 2:08 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Oberyn spent 15 years preparing himself to specifically fight Ser. Gregor which is why he brought an 8 foot spear to King's Landing. Still The Mountain crushed Oberyn and won the duel and may have survived if he wasn't poisoned.

Sure, but poison or no, he would have lost if Oberyn finished him off when he had the opportunity.

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Now if Oberyn was the "superior fighter" why would he need poison at all when he intended to kill the Mountain in the duel?

Insurance, there are no guarantees in a fight - regardless of superiority - especially against an opponent as formidable as the Mountain.

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Yeah I hate poison, I got bit by a snake when I was a teenager and almost died. So the fact he had to use it when he was the "superior fighter" as you say makes me dislike his tactics. 

Fair enough, and quite understandable. I'm no fan of him using poison either.

[AlesterFlorentReborn]

You guys ignore PJ's deeper dorne or you dont know it?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 hours ago, AlesterFlorentReborn said:

You guys ignore PJ's deeper dorne or you dont know it?

There is no reason why PJ's videos have to be known.