Stormking902 Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 We have seen MANY times throughout history liege lords and kings calling there banners and only receiving between 50% and 60% of the numbers said lord should produce but usually this said lord isnt punished at all. Is there a way for the liege lord to prove he is holding out and is it more trouble then its worth to punish these lords?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great and Mighty Poo Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Way more trouble than it is worth. Not only does Westeros not have any census data but the Lords still have to protect their own lands from threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Usually in a time of war, it's hard to get hung up on details. Like how the Dustins and Ryswells only sent the least amount of troops they could get away with. Obviously sending none would have gotten them in a shit load of trouble. But on the other hand, Robb had to move quickly, and in his haste he probably wasn't in a great position to question why none of Lord Ryswell's sons were showing up with their troops, or why more weren't coming. After the war, if he'd lived, he probably would have wanted some answers, but then the Dustins and Ryswells would have had time to come up with a good excuse. Hard to punish lords who technically did provide help without risking too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Im really curious why the lord paramounts don't seem to send out their own men to check and confirm that the lords are bringing an appropiate amount of men. Seems like an easy soloution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aporetic Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Every liege would have general idea how many and of what type of troops a vassal could/should be able to bring when called. It wouldn't be down to he man or but probably within a 100 or so. It would therefore be fairly easy to say if a Lord was holding back. The real quesiton is what, if anything a liege would do about it, and I think it would depend on several circumstances. How important was the call, was the liege ultimately successful and at what cost, etc. The most important factor, however, would be WHO the liege lord is. Tywin Lannister would probably start slitting throats if a lord held back, or cut a vassal off and let another take over. Another Lord might take a castle, village, or manor away and assign it to someone else, increase the taxes, go and visit for a month with a full household and thereby bankrupt the vassal, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 I don't think that it was any actual punishment. Maybe just losing at social status, the other houses look down upon them and mocking them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 In regards to "reality" I would imagine that Westeros is simply so far behind, I mean like pre-Carolingian far behind, in terms of administration and organization of the kingdom that it prevents the lords from having a decent knowledge regarding how many men each lord actually have, and the terms of vassalage don't seem to mention the details of the requirements for bringing troops to serve the liege either. Its not like Robb seems to have had his men inspect the various forces brought by different lords in order to see how many men brought and if their training, fitness and arms were of acceptable quality. In regards to how Westeros works I would say that given Robb's threats against the Greatjon when Lord Umber threatened to march home with his men, I would say that there's a need to show up with force, but there's no saying about how many men must be provided. In Westeros most things seems to be enforced with social sanctions as opposed to legal ones in that honor is important and not committing to your liege will, in the case of a victory for the liege, lead to dishonor and accusations for cowardice and the like. Like how Walder Frey is "punished" with scorn by his liege after not showing up in time for the battle, while fame and glory comes to those who do show up to fight for the victors. I would imagine that something similar would have to Dustin and Ryswell if Robb had returned victoriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Jon seems to have a rough idea of the number of armed men the Mountain Clans can provide. His estimate has a rather wide range though - between 2000 and 3000, he says. So that's a variation of between 33% and 50%, depending on whether you use 2000 or 3000 as your baseline. Remember that populations and fortunes vary wildly over time, and with no census in Westeros (as far as I know), the best one could do was record the number of men a lord sent to a previous war, and base your expectations on that. Therefore, if the Starks call the banners in 20 years time, King Rickon Stark might have been educated on Maester Luwin's old records which stated that the Karstarks brought 2300 men when Robb called the banners. If the Karstarks then arrive with 2000 men only, he might think they left only 300 or so at home. At the same time, a lot may have changed in the Karstark lands over the course of 20 years. Maybe they had a generation of great harvests, and they can now in fact supply 4000 men, in which case 2000 is barely 50% of their strength. Or maybe they have suffered some diseases or economic misfortunes in the intervening time, and the lords are no longer able to feed and transport so many armed men, making 2000 men their full strength. Given such variation over time, it is very easy to see why Robb might not even know whether the Dustins kept significant numbers back, or whether the say 2000 they provided was pretty much the same number as Rodrick Dustin's Winter Wolves during the Dance of the Dragons a century and a half ago. If the Dustins can in fact provide 4000 now, well, how do you prove that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 45 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: Jon seems to have a rough idea of the number of armed men the Mountain Clans can provide. His estimate has a rather wide range though - between 2000 and 3000, he says. So that's a variation of between 33% and 50%, depending on whether you use 2000 or 3000 as your baseline. Remember that populations and fortunes vary wildly over time, and with no census in Westeros (as far as I know), the best one could do was record the number of men a lord sent to a previous war, and base your expectations on that. Therefore, if the Starks call the banners in 20 years time, King Rickon Stark might have been educated on Maester Luwin's old records which stated that the Karstarks brought 2300 men when Robb called the banners. If the Karstarks then arrive with 2000 men only, he might think they left only 300 or so at home. At the same time, a lot may have changed in the Karstark lands over the course of 20 years. Maybe they had a generation of great harvests, and they can now in fact supply 4000 men, in which case 2000 is barely 50% of their strength. Or maybe they have suffered some diseases or economic misfortunes in the intervening time, and the lords are no longer able to feed and transport so many armed men, making 2000 men their full strength. Given such variation over time, it is very easy to see why Robb might not even know whether the Dustins kept significant numbers back, or whether the say 2000 they provided was pretty much the same number as Rodrick Dustin's Winter Wolves during the Dance of the Dragons a century and a half ago. If the Dustins can in fact provide 4000 now, well, how do you prove that? I would imagine the easiest way to deal with this is for a royal tax official to inspect the lands and keep a tally on how much the lord can and should pay in tax in which case one base it on the economical fortune how many soldiers they should be able to secure for a campaign. But sadly this kind of administrative organization is far off from Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Loras The Gay Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 45 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: Jon seems to have a rough idea of the number of armed men the Mountain Clans can provide. His estimate has a rather wide range though - between 2000 and 3000, he says. So that's a variation of between 33% and 50%, depending on whether you use 2000 or 3000 as your baseline. Remember that populations and fortunes vary wildly over time, and with no census in Westeros (as far as I know), the best one could do was record the number of men a lord sent to a previous war, and base your expectations on that. Therefore, if the Starks call the banners in 20 years time, King Rickon Stark might have been educated on Maester Luwin's old records which stated that the Karstarks brought 2300 men when Robb called the banners. If the Karstarks then arrive with 2000 men only, he might think they left only 300 or so at home. At the same time, a lot may have changed in the Karstark lands over the course of 20 years. Maybe they had a generation of great harvests, and they can now in fact supply 4000 men, in which case 2000 is barely 50% of their strength. Or maybe they have suffered some diseases or economic misfortunes in the intervening time, and the lords are no longer able to feed and transport so many armed men, making 2000 men their full strength. Given such variation over time, it is very easy to see why Robb might not even know whether the Dustins kept significant numbers back, or whether the say 2000 they provided was pretty much the same number as Rodrick Dustin's Winter Wolves during the Dance of the Dragons a century and a half ago. If the Dustins can in fact provide 4000 now, well, how do you prove that? Very good analysis. Back then was really hard to estimate with any precision how many troops an house has. People have a general idea, but they can't ask for much. In regard for punishment tho.. If the house sent men I don't see why punish them. What could happen is that, the house who sent the least amount of men don't get that many honour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCK Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Your castle gets burned down by enemies. See the Greyjoys & Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralalala Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said: I would imagine the easiest way to deal with this is for a royal tax official to inspect the lands and keep a tally on how much the lord can and should pay in tax in which case one base it on the economical fortune how many soldiers they should be able to secure for a campaign. But sadly this kind of administrative organization is far off from Westeros. Good riddance i say,the books wouldn't be half as enjoying if they got bogged down in such tedious shit or started 101% emulation of real world... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegon VII Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 14 hours ago, Stormking902 said: We have seen MANY times throughout history liege lords and kings calling there banners and only receiving between 50% and 60% of the numbers said lord should produce but usually this said lord isnt punished at all. Is there a way for the liege lord to prove he is holding out and is it more trouble then its worth to punish these lords?. I would think it's a similar situation to captains in the sopranos kicking up to tony. There supposed to kick up a set percentage but everyone fudges it a little bit. Those that fudge a lot get noted and are judged accordingly. Tony knows Paulie always holds back, Ned knows Walder as the late Walter frey. No explicit punishment, they're just viewed as being the type to pull that shiesty stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 If you piss off your bannermen too much, you're going to have a hard time getting any of them to go out of their way for you. Worse, they might start aligning themselves with another lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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