Illyrio & Varys: untruths and exaggerations

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I'd be willing to speculate that Aerys "got convinced" by Varys/Illyrio. They intentionally planted rumors about Varys to "anxious king".

Those rumors must have existed in any case. Illyrio Mopatis rose from very humble origins to the very pinnacle of political and economic power in Pentos. You don't do that without producing some feisty rumors, and it is quite clear that people in Pentos must have known that this Varys chap was working with Illyrio, especially once they had climbed to the very top of the food chain.

Influencing Aerys II very directly would have been very difficult, though. The man was paranoid already, and not exactly a very outgoing people person from the mid-270s onwards, even before Duskendale. It is easily imaginable that Varys and Illyrio would have been able to infiltrate the Targaryen bureaucracy on the lower or mid-levels but the idea that one of their agents gained the favor and trust of the king himself is very difficult to believe.

The members of the Small Council are named by the king himself. The Hand might suggest members but it is the king who picks them, and in Varys' case we know that Aerys definitely hired him.

Whatever the full story there is we don't know it yet.

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

The problem here, is how much Varys does know about his origins if we trust the backstory he told Tyrion, being a boy in a mummer show, etc. Of course he could have omitted something, without needing to lie.

Actually, why that wizard chose Varys among thousands of stray children, is a hint that he is 'different' in a particular way.

The point there is that Aerys II must have needed more than a slimy smile from Varys and the assurance that he could always count on him. Varys got access to everything - Maegor's plans and other historical records on the Red Keep, the permission to put his agents into the tunnels and passages of the castle to spy on the court, etc. A paranoid man like Aerys isn't the type to grant such an amount of power to a man he doesn't trust. Somehow Varys convinced him that he was his man, and not Rhaegar's, Tywin's, or somebody else's.

[bent branch]

13 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Well, he has the benefit of the Citadel's eyes and ears. Plus, with the exception of Illyrio, he's known Varys the longest: he was Grand Maester when Aerys hired him, so he might know a thing or two.

Doesn't he give them to Nestor Royce in the Alayne TWOW chapter?

Littlefinger's tapestries are Baratheon tapestries, not Targaryen.

Nice catch:

-- Tyrion I, ADWD

I said the same thing about introducing Aegon in book 5: it's too late for that reveal. But GRRM still did it.

Fact is, we don't really know what he would've done by now, or what it's too late for him to do, etc, because we don't actually know how much story there is left to go. Oh sure, he says two more books, but what does he know? And how long will those books be? And will those books move as fast as ASOS or as slow as AFFC?

I obviously was too subtle in my response to the "Redwyne" clothing. That same chest contained a purple velvet doublet with brass studs, a doublet of yellow wool embroidered in green floral patterns, a pair of solid green breeches, and a pair of red and white striped breeches. The fact that there were also a blue double and burgundy breeches is completely unremarkable.

The difference between Aegon being introduced when he was and what you are suggesting is that GRRM  up the Aegon reveal and he hasn't set up a similar reveal for V&I. I know there are some people left who insist that Aegon wasn't foreshadowed, but they have been proved wrong. Before Aegon appeared, there was a small minority who predicted he would appear. The fact that he did appear shows they did not imagine the clues they were seeing.

In regards to Pycelle, the only information he has would be what Varys had fed to his operatives in Essos. The Citadel is not that interested in Essos that they have some sort of information network set up there.

[Makk]

On 4/9/2017 at 0:29 AM, LynnS said:

I wonder if this is actually a statue of young Griff given Illyrio's sentimentality when Tyrion is handed off to Duckfield.  The chest of boy's clothing could imply that fAegon lived at Illyrion's manse for a while.  The six cherry trees standing sentinel around the statue corresponding to his six guardians: Connington, Haldon Halfmaester, Septa Lemore, Duckfield, Ysilla and Yandry.  

If this is Illyrio's keepsake of fAegon; he commissioned the statue himself and tells people its a statue of himself, rather than fAegon.

The symbolism of the cherry tree is interesting;

 

 

I think it far more likely that it is just a clue to point to the fact Illyrio is fAegons father (through the resemblance).

[M_Tootles]

19 hours ago, bent branch said:

 The fact that there were also a blue double and burgundy breeches is completely unremarkable.

As demonstrated by the fact that the author of this work of intentional fiction chose to remark on it.

[bent branch]

33 minutes ago, M_Tootles said:

As demonstrated by the fact that the author of this work of intentional fiction chose to remark on it.

Really. I'm willing to learn. What did he say?

[M_Tootles]

3 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Really. I'm willing to learn. What did he say?

He wrote:

Quote

As he bathed, the girl washed his feet, scrubbed his back, and brushed his hair. Afterward she rubbed sweet-smelling ointment into his calves to ease the aches, and dressed him once again in boy's clothing, a musty pair of burgundy breeches and a blue velvet doublet lined with cloth-of-gold. "Will my lord want me after he has eaten?" she asked as she was lacing up his boots.

Took the time to put that in there. But hey, WORLD BUILDING AMIRITE????

[bent branch]

8 minutes ago, M_Tootles said:

He wrote:

Took the time to put that in there. But hey, WORLD BUILDING AMIRITE????

I've already addressed this. I thought you had something new. Sorry.

[Whitering]

He wasn't fat until after he married a princess. He was a fighter up until then, and protected Varys. I mean, I don't know when he got fat, but it sounds like they made money pretty quickly.

[M_Tootles]

50 minutes ago, bent branch said:

I've already addressed this. I thought you had something new. Sorry.

No you didn't, you wrote as if it weren't singled out, and as if it didn't have a clear reference that the rest does not. But cool, you "addressed" it.

[bent branch]

10 minutes ago, M_Tootles said:

No you didn't, you wrote as if it weren't singled out, and as if it didn't have a clear reference that the rest does not. But cool, you "addressed" it.

Sorry, I wrote this response to Illyrio Mo'Parties and not you. I will copy paste it here (fixing typos).

I obviously was too subtle in my response to the "Redwyne" clothing. That same chest contained a purple velvet doublet with brass studs, a doublet of yellow wool embroidered in green floral patterns, a pair of solid green breeches, and a pair of red and white striped breeches. The fact that there were also a blue doublet and burgundy breeches is completely unremarkable.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

 

 

 

 

 

Her brother, sprawled out on his pillows beside her, never noticed. His mind was away across the narrow sea. "We won't need his whole khalasar," Viserys said. His fingers toyed with the hilt of his borrowed blade, though Dany knew he had never used a sword in earnest. "Ten thousand, that would be enough, I could sweep the Seven Kingdoms with ten thousand Dothraki screamers. The realm will rise for its rightful king. Tyrell, Redwyne, Darry, Greyjoy, they have no more love for the Usurper than I do. The Dornishmen burn to avenge Elia and her children. And the smallfolk will be with us. They cry out for their king." He looked at Illyrio anxiously. "They do, don't they?"

"They are your people, and they love you well," Magister Illyrio said amiably. "In holdfasts all across the realm, men lift secret toasts to your health while women sew dragon banners and hide them against the day of your return from across the water." He gave a massive shrug. "Or so my agents tell me."

Dany 1 Game of Thrones

This is from Danny's first chapter... and clearly Viserys is a fool, and none of these houses will be helping him. But, it is an interesting list... and it's the first reference to the mummer's dragon (dragon banners being made in secret).

Of course, Tyrell and Redwyn laid siege to Storms End during Robert's rebellion, they are also brothers in law since Paxter Redwyne married Mace Tyrell's Sister. (Three kids, horror, slobber, and Jon Fossoway's (green)  wife.)

So, back to the clothing at hand...

His doublet was divided down the middle; the left side was purple velvet with bronze studs; the right, yellow wool embroidered in green floral patterns. His breeches were similarly split; the right leg was solid green, the left leg striped in red and white. One of Illyrio's chests had been packed with a child's clothing, musty but well made.

The right side of Tyrion's motley is green and gold (floral!), and screams to me Tyrell.

He already ruined his burgundy and blue outfit. (Redwyn)

The Purple and bronze is interesting. My first thought is Braavos, where the nobles and the ships are decked in purple and there is a bronze colossus guarding the harbor. Darry took the Targaryen babies to Braavos when he fled dragonstone.

Finally, the red and white stripes. Now admittedly all of these connections might be a stretch, but red and white are the colors of house Connington. And we know Jon was recruited to foster young Griff. 

So I don't know how easy it is to draw conclusions, or know any details of what looks like a conspiracy in the works, from the clothing itself. But I also don't think it can be disregarded out of hand... it sure seems intentional to me.

 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

4 hours ago, Whitering said:

He wasn't fat until after he married a princess.

Is that an excuse I can use?

[Lord Wraith]

On 4/8/2017 at 9:45 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

What's funny about that? Makes perfect sense to me

(FIFY.)

Yeah, maybe, but maybe not. For me, I don't know why we'd ever trust anything that comes out of their mouths. But then again, this is fiction, and having them flat-out lie might be construed by some as the author being unfair.

Aren't cherry trees an American symbol? I think maybe IIRC George Washington fucked a cherry tree - 9 months later America was born

No the idea itself isn't funny but quite plausible. Just imagining Illyrio on the catwalk flashing "Valyrian Steel" is making me 

On 4/8/2017 at 2:31 PM, Lord Varys said:

The aspect of Illyrio's back story that is most likely bullshit is the part about him not knowing why Varys chose him of all people to work with. He must know that because that is most likely the deciding factor in establishing their long partnership. You don't work with a guy whose core motivation you don't know, especially not in the business Varys and Illyrio are working in.

And imagine it has to do with who both Varys and Illyrio actually are - their heritage, their origins, their losses. There is a reason why Daemon Blackfyre got seven sons and at least two daughters. That way there are so many branches of House Blackfyre around that the Iron Throne could easily enough have missed two ugly black snakes descended through the female line. They may be cousins.

I believe Illyrio was a poor bravo when he met Varys but I also expect that Illyrio had had a family who treated him poorly. Say, his mother remarried after his father died while he was an infant and his stepfather brought some children of his own into the family who eventually dumped Illyrio on the streets, taking whatever fortune his mother and father had left him for themselves.

Illyrio might not even have known who exactly he was ancestry-wise. If he is the great-great-grandson of Aegor Rivers and Calla Blackfyre through the female line he might not even have known that he had royal blood (of sorts) until Varys told him. He is very good at uncovering family secrets.

The chances that Illyrio actually fakes being a poor bravo of the (apparently) not exactly very noble family of Mopatis is actually not very likely. If his Blackfyre ancestry and connection to the Golden Company were known to the general public Viserys, Dany, Robert, and Barristan would have known. Aerys II would have known, and he wouldn't have hired Varys in the first place.

There is actually no reason to believe Aegon and his gang spent the entirety of Aegon's childhood and youth on the Rhoyne. What on earth would have been the point of that? They would have traveled the Free Cities or spent a lot of time on one of Illyrio's estates in the Flatlands.

My money is on Illyrio being the descendant of Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre.

On 4/8/2017 at 3:33 PM, rotting sea cow said:

Thanks to all who have contributed here. So, it seems that Illyrio Zoolander (LOL) is the most viable explanation to this contradiction.

 

On 4/8/2017 at 8:51 PM, M_Tootles said:

 

There's all kinds of reasons to question their backstory if you understand how mysteries and dramatic narratives involving mysteries generally function. It's cool that you think we only have permission to question things if there are multiple options presented, but that's a "common sense" heuristic of your own invention, and I can't adduce a single reason to suppose it's necessarily true.

 

 

 

Oh. The Redwyne colors just mean nothing then. Purpose served.  Cool.

Also don't forget that Tyrion also found a rare Redwyne vintage in Illyrio's manse. From Paxter Redwyne's father if memory serves. Could be on to something here.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

1 minute ago, Lord Wraith said:

"Valyrian Steel"

[Lord Wraith]

4 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

[bent branch]

6 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

No the idea itself isn't funny but quite plausible. Just imagining Illyrio on the catwalk flashing "Valyrian Steel" is making me 

My money is on Illyrio being the descendant of Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre.

Also don't forget that Tyrion also found a rare Redwyne vintage in Illyrio's manse. From Paxter Redwyne's father if memory serves. Could be on to something here.

I too think Illyrio is the descendant of Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre. None of the backstory given at this point would rule that out. However, the rare Redwyne vintage could be evidence that the backstory of V&I is exactly as given. Remember, their backstory is that they gather incriminating evidence on individuals and then blackmailed them. The Redwyne wine could have been given as part of a blackmail payment.

[Lord Varys]

I really don't think one should play up that Redwyne vintage thing. Illyrio is a very wealthy man, and vintages from the Arbor are costly and popular. Not to mention that Illyrio really likes to eat and drink. It would be surprising if he didn't have any wines from the Arbor. One could, perhaps, read the presence of this specific vintage as a hint that Illyrio is indeed unusually interested in Westerosi politics.

The fact that Aegon V tried to marry his son Daeron to Olenna Redwyne indicates that the Redwynes did not, in fact, have any strong ties to the Blackfyres. The Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion - a crushing victory for the Targaryens - was in 236 AC, and a year later Aegon and Betha arranged the betrothals of Duncan, Jaehaerys, Shaera, and Daeron. It is quite unlikely that they would have chosen great houses who had been, in general, opposed to House Targaryen in the recent past. Rather it would have been houses that were, in general, positively inclined towards the ruling dynasty who would be tied even stronger to the king if shown the exceptional favor of a royal marriage. That would mean that the Redwynes would most likely have been severely punished had they had had a hand in the Third or Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion rather than being honored with a royal betrothal.

Nothing indicates Aegon V or any previous Targaryen kings were actually forced to use marriage alliances in Westeros to secure the allegiances of crucial houses against the Blackfyre pretenders (Kiera of Tyrosh is another matter).

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I really don't think one should play up that Redwyne vintage thing. Illyrio is a very wealthy man, and vintages from the Arbor are costly and popular.

Yeah but it was Lord Redwyne's private stock, i.e. not for sale

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Yeah but it was Lord Redwyne's private stock, i.e. not for sale

Well, I don't think Illyrio buys the vintages in his private stock on some sort of open market. The Redwynes are the greatest merchant lords of Westeros. It is not surprising at all that there are close contacts between the Lord of the Arbor and a man like Illyrio. He is a well-known man in certain circles. Salladhor Saan knows who he is and he (thinks he) can bribe a triarch of Volantis.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I don't think Illyrio buys the vintages in his private stock on some sort of open market. The Redwynes are the greatest merchant lords of Westeros. It is not surprising at all that there are close contacts between the Lord of the Arbor and a man like Illyrio. He is a well-known man in certain circles. Salladhor Saan knows who he is and he (thinks he) can bribe a triarch of Volantis.

In other words, there's a relationship between Illyrio and the Redwynes