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Ravens are not Crows


Bowen Marsh

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First, let me credit the youtube program called "Order of the Green Hand" for presenting the differences between these two birds.  They are not at all the same bird.  Remember, this is a plot where subtle differences do matter.  For example, the subtle difference between a Targaryen and a Blackfyre; a direwolf and a wolf. 

Ravens, as in Bloodraven, is a force for good.  The Crows are forces making use of the likes of Euron Greyjoy.  Look for two other one-eyed people to make up the 3-eyed crow.  Crows feast on the dead.  Ravens are hunters.  The ravens and the crows are fighting for possession of Bran and Dany. 

Spoiler

The Forsaken sample chapter from TWOW give more information.  Euron is taking prisoner priests and sorcerers.  He tortures them.  Basically, he's proving to himself and his crew that their gods are useless.  He tortures the "servants of the gods" and if the gods don't do anything to him, it means the god doesn't exist.  He can use them to break people's faith and make them more vulnerable to his control. 

Euron is the trickster.  Crows are liars and this one especially.  He represents temptation.  Over and over, he tried to tempt Aeron to break the man's faith.  Aeron didn't see the future.  He merely saw the image that Euron wanted to give him.  It's a temptation to break Aeron.  There's more than a little bit of lie in those images. 

My opinions differ slightly from "Order of the Green Hand" because I'm willing to consider that Bloodraven may have gone over to the dark side and serves the Great Other along with Euron Crow's Eye.  That's two and we just need to find one more one-eyed person.  The vision of Euron sitting on a mound of skulls is reminiscent not only of the House of Black and White but also of the Children's cave beneath the weirwood tree, where skulls of all kinds can be found.  I am tempted to say Qaithe is the third "eye of the crow" but her eyes were actually seen behind the mask and she has two.

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1 hour ago, Bowen Marsh said:

First, let me credit the youtube program called "Order of the Green Hand" for presenting the differences between these two birds.  They are not at all the same bird.  Remember, this is a plot where subtle differences do matter.  For example, the subtle difference between a Targaryen and a Blackfyre; a direwolf and a wolf. 

Yes, and 'Others' and 'White Walkers' may not be the same!

Symbolically, the difference between crows and ravens probably constitutes a subtle difference, on the order of the 'kettle calling the pot black'...or was it rather the 'pot calling the kettleblack..?'

The basic difference I've found in the novels is that ravens possess language, whereas their 'poorer, misunderstood cousins' the crows do not -- with the exception of the 'three-eyed crow' who very definitely is able to communicate using language with Bran.  Logically, however, all crows without exception ought to possess language, or otherwise how would they 'all' be 'liars'? ;)  The semantic hierarchy is very confounding. 

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Ravens, as in Bloodraven, is a force for good.  The Crows are forces making use of the likes of Euron Greyjoy.  Look for two other one-eyed people to make up the 3-eyed crow.  Crows feast on the dead.  Ravens are hunters.  The ravens and the crows are fighting for possession of Bran and Dany. 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Forsaken sample chapter from TWOW give more information.  Euron is taking prisoner priests and sorcerers.  He tortures them.  Basically, he's proving to himself and his crew that their gods are useless.  He tortures the "servants of the gods" and if the gods don't do anything to him, it means the god doesn't exist.  He can use them to break people's faith and make them more vulnerable to his control. 

Euron is the trickster.  Crows are liars and this one especially.  He represents temptation.  Over and over, he tried to tempt Aeron to break the man's faith.  Aeron didn't see the future.  He merely saw the image that Euron wanted to give him.  It's a temptation to break Aeron.  There's more than a little bit of lie in those images. 

My opinions differ slightly from "Order of the Green Hand" because I'm willing to consider that Bloodraven may have gone over to the dark side and serves the Great Other along with Euron Crow's Eye.  That's two and we just need to find one more one-eyed person.  The vision of Euron sitting on a mound of skulls is reminiscent not only of the House of Black and White but also of the Children's cave beneath the weirwood tree, where skulls of all kinds can be found.  I am tempted to say Qaithe is the third "eye of the crow" but her eyes were actually seen behind the mask and she has two.

You may enjoy this thread:

 

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The Wildlings refer to the NW as "crows" but that could be because from their perspective the NW are the "bad guys."  GRRM has commented that he wanted to flip the black/white trope on its head and that's why he has the Night's Watch--his good guys--wear black.

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I saw that video too and it made plenty of sense. It's also just factual that ravens and crows are different birds in real life. I don't think GRRM is infallible, and I think a lot of our speculation will ultimately be useless because what we perceive to be subtle hints could be author error, but there's a reason he uses both crows and ravens in this story. I make no claim on what that reason is, just that the distinction shouldn't be hand waved away.

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7 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

I saw that video too and it made plenty of sense. It's also just factual that ravens and crows are different birds in real life. I don't think GRRM is infallible, and I think a lot of our speculation will ultimately be useless because what we perceive to be subtle hints could be author error, but there's a reason he uses both crows and ravens in this story. I make no claim on what that reason is, just that the distinction shouldn't be hand waved away.

I agree.  It's just very difficult sorting out a clean dichotomy, since there is so much cross-over / overlap between the two categories, frequently in the same person.  For example, Bloodraven is a raven with previous armed guard 'the raven's teeth' who currently lives in a cave full of ravens (there are no crows in the cave of skulls apart from Bloodraven himself...); however, he's also a crow having been Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  Then Jon, in the same position as LC of the Night's Watch, is also a crow; however, complicating the issue, the Night's Watch uses ravens, not crows, in order to deliver their messages!  Moreover, Bran includes Jon as one of the ravens, when he thinks of teaching his siblings how to fly, and how they could all live together in Maester Luwin's rookery:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."

Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too. He wished Robb were with them now. I'd tell him I could fly, but he wouldn't believe, so I'd have to show him. I bet that he could learn to fly too, him and Arya and Sansa, even baby Rickon and Jon Snow. We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.

Even Bran himself has a name which can mean either raven or crow -- and he is often placed among the crows, hinting that he may be one of them, e.g. his penchant for 'haunting' the broken tower where the crows have their nests, which got him started on his greenseer journey via falling and his subsequent induction into his magical 'third-eye powers' facilitated by a crow, the 'three-eyed crow.'

Needless to say, unpacking the raven vs. crow symbolism is complicated.

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A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

Jon's fingers were in the bucket, blood up to the wrist. "Dywen says the wildlings call us crows," he said uncertainly.

"The crow is the raven's poor cousin. They are both beggars in black, hated and misunderstood."

Jon wished he understood what they were talking about, and why. What did he care about ravens and doves? If the old man had something to say to him, why couldn't he just say it?

'The old man' who speaks in riddles is none other than GRRM himself!

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Mormont explains why all crows are liars:

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A Clash of Kings - Jon I

"I've always known that Robb would be Lord of Winterfell."

Mormont gave a whistle, and the bird flew to him again and settled on his arm. "A lord's one thing, a king's another." He offered the raven a handful of corn from his pocket. "They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colors, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed some beautiful princess and father sons on her. You'll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they'll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon . . . and I'll name you a liar, and know I have the truth of it."

Jon drew himself up, taut as a bowstring. "And if it did trouble me, what might I do, bastard as I am?"

 

 

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2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The Wildlings refer to the NW as "crows" but that could be because from their perspective the NW are the "bad guys."  GRRM has commented that he wanted to flip the black/white trope on its head and that's why he has the Night's Watch--his good guys--wear black.

In Japanese opera and Chuck Norris films, the good guys wear the blacks.

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7 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

First, let me credit the youtube program called "Order of the Green Hand" for presenting the differences between these two birds.  They are not at all the same bird.  Remember, this is a plot where subtle differences do matter.  For example, the subtle difference between a Targaryen and a Blackfyre; a direwolf and a wolf. 

Ravens, as in Bloodraven, is a force for good.  The Crows are forces making use of the likes of Euron Greyjoy.  Look for two other one-eyed people to make up the 3-eyed crow.  Crows feast on the dead.  Ravens are hunters.  The ravens and the crows are fighting for possession of Bran and Dany. 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Forsaken sample chapter from TWOW give more information.  Euron is taking prisoner priests and sorcerers.  He tortures them.  Basically, he's proving to himself and his crew that their gods are useless.  He tortures the "servants of the gods" and if the gods don't do anything to him, it means the god doesn't exist.  He can use them to break people's faith and make them more vulnerable to his control. 

Euron is the trickster.  Crows are liars and this one especially.  He represents temptation.  Over and over, he tried to tempt Aeron to break the man's faith.  Aeron didn't see the future.  He merely saw the image that Euron wanted to give him.  It's a temptation to break Aeron.  There's more than a little bit of lie in those images. 

My opinions differ slightly from "Order of the Green Hand" because I'm willing to consider that Bloodraven may have gone over to the dark side and serves the Great Other along with Euron Crow's Eye.  That's two and we just need to find one more one-eyed person.  The vision of Euron sitting on a mound of skulls is reminiscent not only of the House of Black and White but also of the Children's cave beneath the weirwood tree, where skulls of all kinds can be found.  I am tempted to say Qaithe is the third "eye of the crow" but her eyes were actually seen behind the mask and she has two.

I have always believed that some of the Starks will go over to the antagonists side but not Bran.  I can see Jon going over to the side of the bad guys.  Arya is already there.  Jon's arc is about tragedy.  I would not have expected Bran to go dark.  Maybe he figures it all out.

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Calling a black brother a crow is akin to calling an ironborn a squid.  A man of the watch is obviously not a bird and an ironborn is certainly not an inverterbrate.  However, the distinction between crow and raven could be important. 

The fact that ravens once spoke the message could mean skinchanging was a common ability in man thousands of years ago. 

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19 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:
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Euron is the trickster.  Crows are liars and this one especially... Aeron didn't see the future.  He merely saw the image that Euron wanted to give him.  It's a temptation to break Aeron.  There's more than a little bit of lie in those images. 

 

Spoiler

Note that Euron's appearance in the vision matches clothes he wears elsewhere in the chapter. I wouldn't be surprised if Shade of the Evening is a bit of a scam: get the target tripping balls, then stand in front of them looking weird and saying freaky shit and let the drugs fill in the gaps: bing bang boom, made-to-order vision quest.

Remember that Dany thinks she's running round a building with impossible geometry, but she's probably just high as fuck and going in circles.

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On 4/8/2017 at 9:16 PM, Tour De Force said:

I have always believed that some of the Starks will go over to the antagonists side but not Bran.  I can see Jon going over to the side of the bad guys.  Arya is already there.  Jon's arc is about tragedy.  I would not have expected Bran to go dark.  Maybe he figures it all out.

You know the theory of the white walkers are the spirits of the old king's of winter. 

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Ravens and crows are both members of the family corvidae, which also includes jays and magpies among others (there are also many different individual species of crows and ravens). Both ravens and crows are known for their smarts, but the other members of the family are also quite intelligent. There is an excellent documentary on Netflix called "Beaks and Brains" about crows and keas (not corvids) in New Zealand and how intelligent they are.

Ravens are larger than crows, but this difference can be indiscernible when watching an individual animal flying from a distance (although their tails are shaped differently while in flight). Ravens are often seen in pairs while crows will typically be in larger groups. Their beaks also have a different shape and their calls are different. Ravens can soar for long periods of time while crows do not. Flocks of grackles are sometimes mistaken for crows, but are in fact very different and are easily identifiable when seen up close.

This concludes today's episode of "Completely Unsolicited Corvid Facts from a Bird Enthusiast." 

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On 4/8/2017 at 2:10 PM, Bowen Marsh said:

 

Spoiler

 

The Forsaken sample chapter from TWOW give more information.  Euron is taking prisoner priests and sorcerers.  He tortures them.  Basically, he's proving to himself and his crew that their gods are useless.  He tortures the "servants of the gods" and if the gods don't do anything to him, it means the god doesn't exist.  He can use them to break people's faith and make them more vulnerable to his control. 

Euron is the trickster.  Crows are liars and this one especially.  He represents temptation.  Over and over, he tried to tempt Aeron to break the man's faith.  Aeron didn't see the future.  He merely saw the image that Euron wanted to give him.  It's a temptation to break Aeron.  There's more than a little bit of lie in those images. 

 

Spoiler

 

My opinion, Crow's Eye himself is being deceived.  His ally is using him to sow chaos.  He won't get his reward because any "god" who wants to bring death isn't interested in rewarding a man who wants to become a god himself.  The god of the crows, which feasts on the dead, is only interested in killing off the people.  That's the meaning of "a murder of crows" and they are the only ones who benefit from death.  

Euron is the devil tempting a man of faith.  Why bother with the game instead of killing Aeron.  Because Euron thinks there will be people to rule after the Doom of Westeros and he needs men like Aeron to elevate him to god status.  If you're the power making all of this happen, what is the difference between killing off 80%, 90%, 100%.  It doesn't matter.  The god of many faces wins every time.  I see similarities between Euron and the faceless men.  This god is using them to bring death.  I don't think Euron wants to rule over the dead.  What would be the fun in that.  But this god didn't put that in his contract with Euron.  

We've been told of the corpse city, Stygai.  Is there any truth to the city of corpses?  Is that what god wants, to rule over a nation of corpses?  A fun loving man like Euron would find corpses do not make good company.  He'll be bored to death.  He'll have to find someone to be the life of the party so to speak.  

 

 

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On 4/8/2017 at 7:58 PM, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Wow, pretty much the only thing I got out of that read was that maybe Euron is the Three Eyed Crow...

Imo:

only three people have seen the three eyed crow to my knowledge: Bran, Rickon, and Jojen...

Despite being directly questioned none of: Sam, Coldhands, Leaf and Bloodraven himself clearly state the identity of the three eyed crow.

Bran, Eureon, and Bloodraven have all been seen in dreams by other characters however... 

when bran appears to Jon in a dream it's as a heart tree growing from rock.

A weirwood.
It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes? 
Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

BloodRaven is the wooden man/tree... as seen by Melisandre:

The dark recedes again … for a little while. But beyond the Wall, the enemy grows stronger, and should he win the dawn will never come again. She wondered if it had been his face that she had seen, staring out at her from the flames. No. Surely not. His visage would be more frightening than that, cold and black and too terrible for any man to gaze upon and live. The wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boy with the wolf's face … they were his servants, surely … his champions, as Stannis was hers.

BloodRaven also is literally white with a red eye, and there are white ravens with red eyes in the story, they are used as the harbingers of season's end... aka the heralds of winter.

Eureon is the drowned crow... As seen by the Ghost of High Heart.

 "The old gods stir and will not let me sleep," she heard the woman say. "I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crowwith seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more. Do you have gifts for me, to pay me for my dreams?"

But no third eye... only Bran is seen with a third eye.

But back to Crows VS Ravens, I've wondered recently if the defining difference for us might have to do with intelegence/memory. Knowledge versus ignorance.

Ravens are the larger cleverer birds, they carried messages (once literally trained to speak them) and they are shapeshifted by children who seemingly leave a piece of themselves inside. Ravens bring knowledge.

Crows meanwhile are the smaller cousins of the ravens. They are often portrayed as carrion birds, eating the fallen, especially the eyes. Crows take.

I can never get over how the 3eC's pecking seems to take Bran's memories away during his fall, first of Golden Jaime, then again once he opens his eye and sees everything, waking him up.

The "crows" of the nights watch have forgotten their duty/purpose. They also take the oaths (lives) of the criminals of Westeros, often serving as an alternative to corporal punishment or execution.

Eureon Crowseye is the forgotten brother, banished, who returns to feast on his brothers kingdom after his death (murder). I suspect he isn't quite as knowledgeable as he pretends, he seems to have stumbled across powers he doesn't fully understand.

Bloodraven, both in his walking life, and now as part of the Weirwood seems to have secret knowledge. His spy network in life had a realm terrified of him, and now he at least appears to be playing the teacher.

Raventree hall meanwhile is one of the few southern houses (Blackwoods) to keep the old ways. They remember...

Mormonts Raven knows too much to be just a simple pet. Wether he is simply serving as a talking piece for someone else or is housing some dead spirit, he seems to have inside info.

There are lots of little examples I could add and some I'm sure I've missed...

Thoughts?

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I didn't see the videos of the "green order", but I have studied an aspect of the crows and the ravens in the saga when I was studying Yoren (as a variation on Charon, the mythologic character who conducts the souls of the deads in the underwold) and some facts appears clearly : 

- there is a voluntary litterar distinction between ravens and crows, but this distinction permits to pay attention when crows and ravens change their part, I mean when a raven play the crow's part, and when a crow plays the raven's part. 

- Both parts are linked to the death and the "underwold", and that makes these birds siblings, but they don't assume ordinary the same tasks. Basically, ravens have the "word", so are naturally messengers (between deads and living people, between gods and people). Crows - as carrions - are keepers/custodians/guardians/watchers : they assure that the dead stay dead. Because of the direct contact with the dead, the crow is far more despised than the raven, and to confirm that, he is associated with the whores, after battle for example, but also with the Umber brothers : Crowfood and Whoresbane ^^ (and perhaps we should have a new look to Dareon and the whores of Braavos). 

But, raven can be carrion too, like here : 

 
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The heads never lacked for attendants. The carrion crows wheeled about the gatehouse in raucous unkindness and quarreled upon the ramparts over every eye, screaming and cawing at each other and taking to the air whenever a sentry passed along the battlements. Sometimes the maester's ravens joined the feast as well, flapping down from the rookery on wide black wings. When the ravens came the crows would scatter, only to return the moment the larger birds were gone.
Do the ravens remember Maester Tothmure? Arya wondered.(Arya X, ACOK)

 

 Here, the raven is clearly biger and what we can see is a kind of hierarchy between the birds, same hierarchy imo that we find between wolves and direwolves (in ASOS, Bran I, there is a long scene where Summer hunts and dispute meat to wolves : when he has proved his superiority, he can eat first and the ordinary wolves are waiting their turn). 
Another scene where ravens are carrion, Sam III ASOS : 
 
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"Fair." The raven landed on his shoulder. "Fair, far, fear." It flapped its wings, and screamed along with Gilly. The wights were almost on her. He heard the dark red leaves of the weirwood rustling, whispering to one another in a tongue he did not know. The starlight itself seemed to stir, and all around them the trees groaned and creaked. Sam Tarly turned the color of curdled milk, and his eyes went wide as plates. Ravens! They were in the weirwood, hundreds of them, thousands, perched on the bone-white branches, peering between the leaves. He saw their beaks open as they screamed, saw them spread their black wings. Shrieking, flapping, they descended on the wights in angry clouds. They swarmed round Chett's face and pecked at his blue eyes, they covered the Sisterman like flies, they plucked gobbets from inside Hake's shattered head. There were so many that when Sam looked up, he could not see the moon.
"Go," said the bird on his shoulder. "Go, go, go."
Sam ran, puffs of frost exploding from his mouth. All around him the wights flailed at the black wings and sharp beaks that assailed them, falling in an eerie silence with never a grunt nor cry. But the ravens ignored Sam. He took Gilly by the hand and pulled her away from the weirwood. "We have to go."
"But where?" Gilly hurried after him, holding her baby. "They killed our horse, how will we . . ."
"Brother!" The shout cut through the night, through the shrieks of a thousand ravens. Beneath the trees, a man muffled head to heels in mottled blacks and greys sat astride an elk. "Here," the rider called. A hood shadowed his face.
He's wearing blacks. 

 

Here, the ravens are acting like crows would have to do. They save a crow (Sam) and they are apparently leaded by another crow (Coldhands) : the situation is the reverse of the Raven (LC Mormont's pet and after him LC Jon's pet) "leading" the crows. I confess I'm always wondering about this inversion, though I have at least one hypothesis to purpose : beyond the Wall, the crows are defeated, so the ravens (as sibling) have no more choice to assume this part that they don't constantly assume behind the Wall. 
And obviously, crows can also be messengers, like Alliser Thorne at KL who try to alert the realm about the danger and the dead who aren't dead; or like Yoren who predict the un-death of Sandor, Gregor and Catelyn (he tells to Arya how he failed to conduct 3 men to the Wall - aka to definetly death) : 
Quote

"All that time, I only lost three. Old man died of a fever, city boy got snakebit taking a shit, and one fool tried to kill me in my sleep and got a red smile for his trouble." He drew the dirk across his throat, to show her. "Three in thirty years.(Arya III, ACOK)

After this story, he says that a "clever man" should find and take a ship to escape the Riverlands (= to arrive in the underworld), and effectively, Arya at the end of ASOS will find a ship and pay her "obole" to join the HOBW. 

Alliser Thorne fails to deliver his message, he is like Cassandra. 

With these observations, I arrived to a first conclusion : the crows are ordinary accomplishing the infamous and dirty tasks, perhaps to spare the "noble" raven.

 

4 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But back to Crows VS Ravens, I've wondered recently if the defining difference for us might have to do with intelegence/memory. Knowledge versus ignorance.

So I'm not sure about this categorizing. It seems for me that crows have "a terrible knowledge" (Bran III, AGOT) but are forced to silence to keep this knowledge secret, and that why they are despised, or not heard, or mute, or reputed as liars (and I wonder if the real liar of the story is not the raven, to be honest) : 

- for example, the crows of the Wall have not forgotten thier duty, nor against what they fight : the old Gared and Will know that the cold is a terrible thing; Qhorin and his men speak very seriously from skinchangers, from the weirwood dream of Jon and from the "trees which have eyes"; Alliser Thorne doesn't doubt about how the danger of the dead and the Others is real; Dywen, Dolorous Edd and in fact most Watchers with some years of experience are taken the "cold winds" very seriously. And when the dead arrive at the Fist to attack, the blow the horn three time : they know very well their task. LC Mormont and Thoren Smallwood are blind about, and Mormont attributes his blindness to all the Watchers, but he is wrong with that. And Mormont is the one who had the raven. 

- Euron's crew is made of mutes. As I am with Euron, could it be a wordplay with crew/crow in his case ? The Crow-Eye leader of little crew of crows ?

And ravens... I'm not sure that they well remember, in fact : for proof, they don't remember why they are quarelling so long time with the Bracken. They also pretend that the Bracken long ago poisoned the heart tree, but that can be false. Lord Blackwood totally ignore why ravens come each evening to cover their weirwood, but he wears a cloak with raven's feathers.

I have quoted also Arya wondering if the ravens remember maester Tothmure (just for fun, Tothmure wears the name of the egyptian god of knowledge, words and scribes, and he was the "registrar" of the deads when they were judged). I don't have an answer about it, so I can't say if ravens remember or not Tothmure, but the fact is that throw Arya, GRRM tell the question

 

There is also the intriguing Patchface's song "under the sea the crows are white as snow". One of my hypothesis about (non exclusive), is that the white can here represents a kind of innocence, when the crows are ignorant like children. Like Bran who "fly" with the crows at Winterfell (note that these crows aren't carrions and eat corn, I mean that they aren't presented as carrions) before he discovers the twincest and falls for that. I have in mind a scenario where long ago in the past, the crow (in my hypothesis, it's the "first 3-Eyed-Crow", most probably a Brandon Stark) was the loved children of his raven-mother (could have she be a Blackwood ?), and once he discovered one or many terrible lies she did (=acquired a terrible knowledge), and he choosed silence to hide the lie(s)... for love, and to protect his mother. 

 

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Fantastic little analysis there Boulga. I'm not sure I agree with all of it but you have some great points. The idea that there are times when crows/ravens switch roles is particularly interesting, but I'm not entirely sold yet.

The Nights Watch for instance I do think has forgotten their purpose, and clearly much of their own history:

"We never knew! But we must have known once. The Night's Watch has forgotten its true purpose, Tarly. You don't build a wall seven hundred feet high to keep savages in skins from stealing women. The Wall was made to guard the realms of men . . . and not against other men, which is all the wildlings are when you come right down to it. Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy. And now he's here, but we don't know how to fight him. Is dragonglass made by dragons, as the smallfolk like to say?"

In fact, men of he Nights Watch are explicitly ordered to give up their pasts:

And what metal is Robb? Jon did not ask. Noye was a Baratheon man; likely he thought Joffrey the lawful king and Robb a traitor. Among the brotherhood of the Night's Watch, there was an unspoken pact never to probe too deeply into such matters. Men came to the Wall from all of the Seven Kingdoms, and old loves and loyalties were not easily forgotten, no matter how many oaths a man swore . . . as Jon himself had good reason to know. Even Sam—his father's House was sworn to Highgarden, whose Lord Tyrell supported King Renly. Best not to talk of such things. The Night's Watch took no sides. "Lord Mormont awaits us," Jon said.

As for Bran's dream, I'm still not convinced that the "terrible knowledge" he sees in the crow's third eye isn't his own knowledge being taken from him. The crow doesn't have three eyes until after Bran does (and later pecks away the eye). The "terrible knowledge" seems to be whatever he saw in the heart of winter (much like Jaime, Bran doesn't seem to remember on waking) which the 3eC follows up with Bran's own family words: "Winter is Coming".

I'm still working through this in my head so bear with me...

 

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14 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

 

Fantastic little analysis there Boulga. I'm not sure I agree with all of it but you have some great points.

 

Thank you ! 

After reflexing on the subject, I see that I turned a bit around my idea but I was not enough precise. In fact, I fought your idea of the crow acquiring (stealing ?) knowledge by pecking the eyes very judicious, but I missed to integrate to my analysis... and that could nuances the point of view. 

So : ravens have the knowledge from the beginning - perhaps naturally - but they close their eyes and don't retain their memories. There is something a bit repetitive and "robotic", I mean without consciousness. Crows have not "the knowledge" at the beginning, they acquire it during the crow's life : that's valable for the Watchers on the Wall with experience (especially experience of the cold, and I suspect that the constantly contact with the magic Wall itself has an influence more than just symbollic).  

 

14 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

In fact, men of he Nights Watch are explicitly ordered to give up their pasts:

That's true, the erasing of the "memory of the life" is an obligation;

Quote

 He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.(Bran III, AGOT)

but this memory of their past life is replaced by new knowledge - I think a memory of the dead - like new brotherhood, and if the theory about the greenseer being trapped in the Wall throw the weirwood and the black gate at Night Fort is true, so the watchers share some part of his own knowledge. Wall, greenseer, we think to Brandon the Builder, and so, I make the parallel with little Bran. he also must give up his past (as Jojen says to Sam, the Bran boy of Winterfell has died, and that's not only a way to protect him) and will acquire all the knowledge of the 3 Eyed Crow in return. 

But what is troubling with the Watchers, is effectively that they speak totally openly about wildlings, but for the Others/the "cold winds"/the dead who walk, they speak only with allusions and some mystery, as if the subject were taboo though their oath speaks of the LN and the eternal Winter. As if they just were touching something forbidden : they know but they can't speak freely about. Bran again : 

 
Quote

 

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.
"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.
Because winter is coming.
Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

 

 

 

Returning to the life, Bran loose all these memories of "dead experience", but a trail remains in the name he give to his direwolf, as an "anti-curse". 

 And indeed, I think the knowledge of "beyond the Wall" (as world of dead) is taboo : as he is wrong on other subjects, I think Mormont is wrong when he says that the Night Watch has forgotten what they must keep, in fact, it could be that they never were clearly told about it : just the oath (and once the obsidian, as it is mentionned in the archives of CB), and that's all. But that contradicts a bit the Long Night as a storical fact : it is very strange and incoherent that the knowledge about the LN seems to be a secret only for initiated watchers. It is natural for "ordinary" people to forget cataclysm - we call that "resilience" - but the Night Watch was just instituted to defend against the LN and to keep the memory of the LN. The only hypothesis that satisfies me for the moment to explain the apparent contradiction, is that the LN never happened in the past, but is an anticipation of the future (the time of the saga), an event so strong that its trails were sensible for "dreamers" and "inspired people" (priests, singers, maegis, prophets, greenseers...) far in the past and far geographically too.  

 

14 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

As for Bran's dream, I'm still not convinced that the "terrible knowledge" he sees in the crow's third eye isn't his own knowledge being taken from him. The crow doesn't have three eyes until after Bran does (and later pecks away the eye). The "terrible knowledge" seems to be whatever he saw in the heart of winter (much like Jaime, Bran doesn't seem to remember on waking) which the 3eC follows up with Bran's own family words: "Winter is Coming

I agree, I was too shortly ; the discovering of the twincest (and of the fact that the heirs of the IT are bastards) is the first element. I continue to think it is as determinant as an impulse, like losing the innocence and falling from winterfell as paradise for children, but the "fall" is only the beginning and the first steps (of the fly and of the knowledge). Obviously, the last step concerns the heart of winter. I think too that the more he gains knowledge, the more the crow takes an active part to the events (and bears a heavy responsibility). Perhaps that also explains the particularity of BR : yes, he broke all the rules with kin(g)slaying, guest right, incest... but he never lied about it and never tried to hide his acts after they were done. And I wonder if this "openly acting" (like Jaime killing Aerys) is not the reason why he was "chosen" as mentor for Bran.  

I think I didn't said it clearly, but I also agree with the principe of BR non being the 3-Eyed-Crow, with a nuance, though : for me it is "non being the original 3EC". But the text is enough ambiguous to support easily BR at least as a passage for the 3EC : I mean, as greenseer wed to a weirwood, he mix his soul to the 3EC's soul, so he is also a part of it. 

 

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