Bloodraven during Robert's Rebellion

[Wolf's Bane]

This guy has been watching over the realm from beneath the tree for a long time.  He saw the birth of Eddard and his siblings.  I'm sure he witnessed the births of Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys.  He must have witnessed the conspirators plotting their treason.  I'm talking about Rickard, Brandon, Robert, and Jon Arryn planning to take over the throne.  As far as we know, Bloodraven didn't attempt to interfere.  And if he did, he was ineffective.  I understand that he's a greenseer not a god.  But still, you would think he would have interfered.  He could have warned Varys through the "little birds" who may be more than just little children.  He either tried to help and failed or chose not to interfere because the events have to fall a certain way to:

• Birth Daenerys and bring back the dragons.
• Birth Bran Stark.
• Get rid of Rickard, Brandon, Aerys, Rhaegar, Lyanna, and eventually Robert.  In other words, get rid of ineffective but influential people in leadership positions.

[Josette DuPres]

Iirc, only some people can receive the dreams.  Bloodraven can only communicate with people who can receive dreams.  Most people will have ordinary dreams during R.E.M sleep.  He's not god as you say.  Maybe he tried and failed to protect the Targaryen monarchy.

[Lion of the West]

I don't think that Bloodraven is any longer much invested in House Targaryen. If he was really invested in them, like he was against the Blackfyres, I fail to see why he would show such clemency to House Stark and raise its scion to be his successor as opposed to seek the destruction of a major contributing House to the downfall of the Targaryens. So I think he's playing to save Westeros from the Others, and maybe House Targaryen can be a petty project on the side.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

After Bloodraven left the Wall, I doubt he cared about house Targaryen and its' power. He was commited to save Westeros from the Others, prepare himself for that and learn to use his greenseer powers. After all, he didn't know any of the last Targaryens personally.

 

[rotting sea cow]

2 hours ago, Josette DuPres said:

Iirc, only some people can receive the dreams.  Bloodraven can only communicate with people who can receive dreams. 

Is it Jaime among these people? Because he received a very interesting dream from BR, with some parallels to Bran's one.

 

16 minutes ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

After Bloodraven left the Wall, I doubt he cared about house Targaryen and its' power. He was commited to save Westeros from the Others, prepare himself for that and learn to use his greenseer powers.

I kind of agree that Brynden Rivers does not care anymore about humanly struggles for power and he is fully committed to fight the Others.

Still, I think that in his plight to find the champions, he influenced some events. I could imagine BR "helping" Rhaegar and/or Lyanna to find each other, because their eventual offsprings could be important in that fight, without considering that this could spark a savage civil war that would end a dynasty and weaken the realm in the long term.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

3 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Still, I think that in his plight to find the champions, he influenced some events. I could imagine BR "helping" Rhaegar and/or Lyanna to find each other, because their eventual offsprings could be important in that fight, without considering that this could spark a savage civil war that would end a dynasty and weaken the realm in the long term.

I think he was focused more on the Stark as he has mentioned, so guiding Lyanna through dreams or visions is more possible.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Is it Jaime among these people? Because he received a very interesting dream from BR, with some parallels to Bran's one.

Can you elaborate?   I don't remember this.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Why would BloodRaven should give a eff about who sits on the Throne and not about how to defeat the Others?

[rotting sea cow]

22 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Can you elaborate?   I don't remember this.

ASOS - Jaime VI

It is the meat of Jaime VI in ASOS, after leaving Harrenhal. He is sleeping against a weirwood and has a very, very important dream.

Some passages
 

Quote

As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt.

...

“A sword,” Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood a scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought. in this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.
“The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.”

...

Yet there came two riders on pale horses, men and mounts both armored. The destriers emerged from the blackness at a slow walk. They make no sound,

...

He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders.

...

The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne’s burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.
 

The dream is littered with symbolisms. Many things related to Jaime's story and guilt, but also indications that Jaime and/or Brienne are important in the endgame against the Others. So far in the books, only Beric and Thoros wield flaming swords, but Jon Snow has dreamed wielding one. Stannis sword is fake.

After the dream, Jaime decided to go back to Harrehal to rescue Brienne.

 

[Lord Lannister]

What did a lifetime of service to House Targaryen get Bloodraven? Exiled to the edge of the world. You can argue if that was just or not, but in his eyes it's entirely possible that Brynden washed his hands of House Targaryen when he took the Black. If not then, then when he took root in that weirwood tree. Certainly by then he was becoming aware of larger concerns than who sits the Iron Throne. There's the tinfoil theory that Bloodraven was responsible for planting the suggestion "burn them all" into the Mad King's head, in reference to the Others, but that doesn't necessarily require allegiance to House Targaryen. Certainly he seems to have no issue bonding with the Starks, Bran and Jon(through the raven), in order to influence things, despite them being the sons of one of the "usurper's dogs" as one prominent Targaryen termed him.

[Maxxine]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

What did a lifetime of service to House Targaryen get Bloodraven? Exiled to the edge of the world. You can argue if that was just or not, but in his eyes it's entirely possible that Brynden washed his hands of House Targaryen when he took the Black. If not then, then when he took root in that weirwood tree. Certainly by then he was becoming aware of larger concerns than who sits the Iron Throne. There's the tinfoil theory that Bloodraven was responsible for planting the suggestion "burn them all" into the Mad King's head, in reference to the Others, but that doesn't necessarily require allegiance to House Targaryen. Certainly he seems to have no issue bonding with the Starks, Bran and Jon(through the raven), in order to influence things, despite them being the sons of one of the "usurper's dogs" as one prominent Targaryen termed him.

I doubt Bloodraven held any ill will toward the Targaryens. I think he understood why he was sent to the Wall and in fact I believed he planned it or at least foresaw it. But I do think he was no longer concerned with Targaryens because he was concerned about the bigger issue -the Others and all of his focus is on that. So he wasn't going to devote much time to saving them. Their destruction may have also been necessary for saving the realm from the Others.

[Renly's Banana]

19 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

He must have witnessed the conspirators plotting their treason.  I'm talking about Rickard, Brandon, Robert, and Jon Arryn planning to take over the throne.  As far as we know, Bloodraven didn't attempt to interfere. 

Wait, what? None of these people got together to plot taking over the throne. They didn't even do it separately. 
By the time Robert started fighting to actively kill Rhaegar, Rickard and Brandon were both already long dead. Robert seems to have been making it up as he went along. Remember there was still confusion as to who would sit on the throne as late as the sack of King's Landing. There was no big conspiracy to dethrone the Targaryens, all of the people involved started the rebellion mainly as an act of survival and defiance to Aerys. 

You could also argue that, if Bloodraven's ultimate goal was to eventually meet with Bran, all he had to do was sit back and do nothing. So long as Eddard stayed alive long enough to father Bran, not much else mattered. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

7 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Wait, what? None of these people got together to plot taking over the throne. They didn't even do it separately. 
By the time Robert started fighting to actively kill Rhaegar, Rickard and Brandon were both already long dead. Robert seems to have been making it up as he went along. Remember there was still confusion as to who would sit on the throne as late as the sack of King's Landing. There was no big conspiracy to dethrone the Targaryens, all of the people involved started the rebellion mainly as an act of survival and defiance to Aerys. 

Rickard and Robert were planning treason.  They're not the good people that some readers think they are.  Aerys had every right to execute Rickard and ask for Robert's head.  This is a passage from A Game of Thrones, page 60.  This is Ned talking to Cat.

"Brandon.  Yes. Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant for Brandon.  You, Winterfell, everything.  He was born to be a king's hand and a father to queens."

Those slime balls were planning to take over the kingdom from the time Brandon was born.  Rickard and Jon Arryn were already planning ahead to put a Baratheon on the throne and Brandon would be the Hand. 

7 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

You could also argue that, if Bloodraven's ultimate goal was to eventually meet with Bran, all he had to do was sit back and do nothing. So long as Eddard stayed alive long enough to father Bran, not much else mattered. 

It may have been important for events to proceed as they did.  Bloodraven had to sit back and watch the destruction of the family that he loved in order to bring about the birth of Daenerys, Bran, the Dragons, etc.  Rhaegar was incompetent and not really fit to rule.  It matters not whether he abducted Lyanna or fell in love with her.  Both should have never happened.  Bloodraven had to let the dynasty fall to pass the line of succession to Princess Daenerys.  Bloodraven figured it out before Aemon, she is the Prince that was Promised.

[Darkstream]

6 minutes ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Rickard and Robert were planning treason.  They're not the good people that some readers think they are.  Aerys had every right to execute Rickard and ask for Robert's head.  This is a passage from A Game of Thrones, page 60.  This is Ned talking to Cat.

"Brandon.  Yes. Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant for Brandon.  You, Winterfell, everything.  He was born to be a king's hand and a father to queens."

Those slime balls were planning to take over the kingdom from the time Brandon was born.  Rickard and Jon Arryn were already planning ahead to put a Baratheon on the throne and Brandon would be the Hand. 

How does that quote in any way infer what you are asserting?

Are you implying that Ned's goal was to take over the kingdom? Because all that quote means is that Ned's lot was meant for Brandon.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

How does that quote in any way infer what you are asserting?

Are you implying that Ned's goal was to take over the kingdom? Because all that quote means is that Ned's lot was meant for Brandon.

And that lot included the position of the king's hand.  Something that had to have been planned long before that idiot rode into the Red Keep to threaten Prince Rheagar.  Rickard already had plans to remove the Targaryens from power many years before the start of Robert's Rebellion.  The plan was to make Brandon hand of the new king.  This, coupled with what Lady Dustin told Theon is enough evidence against Rickard Stark.  He was plotting rebellion for years. 

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

And that lot included the position of the king's hand.  Something that had to have been planned long before that idiot rode into the Red Keep to threaten Prince Rheagar.  Rickard already had plans to remove the Targaryens from power many years before the start of Robert's Rebellion.  The plan was to make Brandon hand of the new king.  This, coupled with what Lady Dustin told Theon is enough evidence against Rickard Stark.  He was plotting rebellion for years. 

No, Ned is referring to the lot that he was dealt, him becoming Roberts hand as a result of Jon Aryn's death. As well he states, father of Queens, refering to Sansa marrying Joff. 

If that was the plan, why wasn't Ned made hand instead of Jon?

I'm sorry, but your clear hatred for those "slimeballs" and "idiot" is obviously distorting your ability to correctly interpret the meaning of that quote.

[Renly's Banana]

25 minutes ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Rickard and Robert were planning treason.  They're not the good people that some readers think they are.  Aerys had every right to execute Rickard and ask for Robert's head.  This is a passage from A Game of Thrones, page 60.  This is Ned talking to Cat.

"Brandon.  Yes. Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant for Brandon.  You, Winterfell, everything.  He was born to be a king's hand and a father to queens."

Those slime balls were planning to take over the kingdom from the time Brandon was born.  Rickard and Jon Arryn were already planning ahead to put a Baratheon on the throne and Brandon would be the Hand. 

W-what?
That quote is Ned reflecting on how different the two Stark brothers were. As in, "Brandon would be up to the task of being Hand. He wouldn't be afraid to go to King's Landing and take on the enemy." Brandon was bold, as opposed to Ned's apprehension. 
There's literally no proof anywhere that Jon Arryn and Rickard Stark were planning anything. And why would they be plotting to put a Baratheon teenager on the throne instead of their own line? How did they anticipate Rhaegar would kidnap Lyanna and piss off Robert? How did they know Brandon would go to King's Landing and get himself captured? What? Why? Huh???

[The Lord of the Crossing]

2 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

No, Ned is referring to the lot that he was dealt, him becoming Roberts hand as a result of Jon Aryn's death. As well he states, father of Queens, refering to Sansa marrying Joff.

Sansa and Jon were only part of the conversation.  Clearly, Ned was referring to the fact that his father was planning on Brandon becoming hand of the king.  Do you realize the implications here? 

If that was the plan, why wasn't Ned made hand instead of Jon?

Ned was not interested and Jon was the better choice at the time.  Brandon's impulsiveness notwithstanding, Rickard was planning great things for his first born son.  He had ambitions that could not be realized without first taking down his rightful king. 

I'm sorry, but your clear hatred for those "slimeballs" and "idiot" is distorting your ability to correctly interpret the meaning of that quote.

I'm sorry, you chose to ignore the meaning of that passage.  It's clear what "it was all meant for Brandon" meant in context to the job of hand of the king.  This has to be taken in consideration together with Lady Dustin's information regarding Lord Rickard's "southron ambitions"  It's clear Rickard and Robert were plotting. 

 

[Darkstream]

5 hours ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Sansa and Jon were only part of the conversation.  Clearly, Ned was referring to the fact that his father was planning on Brandon becoming hand of the king.  Do you realize the implications here? 

Ned was not interested and Jon was the better choice at the time.  Brandon's impulsiveness notwithstanding, Rickard was planning great things for his first born son.  He had ambitions that could not be realized without first taking down his rightful king. 

I'm sorry, you chose to ignore the meaning of that passage.  It's clear what "it was all meant for Brandon" meant in context to the job of hand of the king.  This has to be taken in consideration together with Lady Dustin's information regarding Lord Rickard's "southron ambitions"  It's clear Rickard and Robert were plotting. 

I have to say, your argument is quite Lame.

Yes, there are hints to what you are asserting with the whole Southern ambitions info from Lady Dustin, but I wouldn't say that has any corolation with Ned's comment. These two quotes certainly should not be taken in consideration together.

As you seem to be under the impression, I am not challenging your stance that there may have been these, or at least similar, asperations from Rickard and Brandon. In fact, I would concur that it is likely. However, this quote by Ned is not evidence for that.

[300 H&H Magnum]

20 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

This guy has been watching over the realm from beneath the tree for a long time.  He saw the birth of Eddard and his siblings.  I'm sure he witnessed the births of Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys.  He must have witnessed the conspirators plotting their treason.  I'm talking about Rickard, Brandon, Robert, and Jon Arryn planning to take over the throne.  As far as we know, Bloodraven didn't attempt to interfere.  And if he did, he was ineffective.  I understand that he's a greenseer not a god.  But still, you would think he would have interfered.  He could have warned Varys through the "little birds" who may be more than just little children.  He either tried to help and failed or chose not to interfere because the events have to fall a certain way to:

• Birth Daenerys and bring back the dragons.
• Birth Bran Stark.
• Get rid of Rickard, Brandon, Aerys, Rhaegar, Lyanna, and eventually Robert.  In other words, get rid of ineffective but influential people in leadership positions.

Bloodraven is a learned man.  He knew of the prophecies surrounding the PTWP.  He had access to the library at Castle Black and he had time to read up on the subject.  I say he let the rebellion happen.

19 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

W-what?
That quote is Ned reflecting on how different the two Stark brothers were. As in, "Brandon would be up to the task of being Hand. He wouldn't be afraid to go to King's Landing and take on the enemy." Brandon was bold, as opposed to Ned's apprehension. 
There's literally no proof anywhere that Jon Arryn and Rickard Stark were planning anything. And why would they be plotting to put a Baratheon teenager on the throne instead of their own line? How did they anticipate Rhaegar would kidnap Lyanna and piss off Robert? How did they know Brandon would go to King's Landing and get himself captured? What? Why? Huh???

Actually, it is impossible for Rickard, Brandon, and Robert to be innocent of conspiracy against the crown.  Common sense says the blood ties that those marriage alliances would create puts them in position to challenge the Targaryens.  That's not how a good subject behaves at the very least.  Those fathers were planning and plotting a coup.  I can give Jon Arryn the benefit of the doubt and say he just got dragged along but Rickard doesn't enjoy the same excuse. 

The executions should have been handled better.  It was a good decision to lure Rickard to KL.  Much better than marching an army to Winterfell and rooting him out.  Rickard and Brandon should have been swiftly executed in public.  There was no need for the Strangler and the Wildfire Cookout.  Robert should be killed but a more subtle way would have been better.  Wait for him to ride out of the bloody gate and ambush him is what I would do.  Ned and Benjen would have to die too but that could be done quietly.