Sandor Clegane is best all rounder fighter.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

55 minutes ago, devilish said:

I don't think that Oberyn knew how the Mountain fought. He might have heard rumours (although Gregor was quite versed in not letting alot of witnesses during his fights) but that was it. Sure, he knew more about the Mountain then the Mountain knew about him. However that slight advantage would vanish when compared to the Mountain's superior strength, armour protection and reach. What gave Oberyn the edge was his superior training and military experience having travelled the world and learnt so many styles which might have been foreign to the Mountain.

a- The first thing you learn in martial arts is to finish your opponent and never ever lower your guard unless he's 100% beaten. Oberyn was a cultured man. He must have read alot about numerous duels between 'giants' and more talented warriors including those of Sir Duncan the Tall. Once the more experienced fighter is involved into a brawl with something that big he's fate is sealed. What Oberyn did was a childish mistake typical of someone who allowed his feelings to get the better of him

b- There's a difference between taunting the opponent and totally underestimate him.

 

 

 

You honestly think Oberyn and Doran didn't find out as much about The Mountain and the others as possible after they killed their beloved Elia? The Mountain is known throughout the realm as the baddest guy on the block. Jamie compares him to the legendary smiling knight and that people looking for glory would search him out and fight him and be killed. Gregor fought in Tourneys in front of all kinds of witnesses. Oberyn used a spear that negated the reach of Gregor and his great sword which is probably why he used it in the first place. Who said Oberyn had more experience then the Mountain? How do you know this? All we know is Oberyn fought with the second sounds and in the disputed lands and slept with a bunch of men and women and that's it. It was never said Oberyn went on a quest to learn different styles of combat or even how much he fought when he was in the second sons and who it was that he fought, he could have fought peasants for all we know. I feel like your assuming way too much. Also Oberyn never commanded any men on Westerosi soil while The Mountain fought in the WOT5K.

a- Oberyn made the mistake of thinking the Mountain was hurt worse then he was, he didn't drop his guard he went for the finish on a man that he judged was no longer able to put up resistance to his final attack. Oberyn never intended to grapple with the Mountain, Oberyn took Gregor's great sword to finish him then he grabbed Oberyn making him slip and fall right into Clegane grasp. What did Oberyn's feelings have anything to do with it?

b- How do you know he "totally underestimated The Mountain?" If Oberyn was so much better then Gregor and was so sure he'd beat him then why did he poison his spear? Doesn't sound like he underestimated him to me.

I also don't know where your getting the whole "the Cleganes were just big strong bruisers" thing from as I believe GRRM himself said the Cleganes are some of the top fighters living in the series.

[devilish]

17 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

You honestly think Oberyn and Doran didn't find out as much about The Mountain and the others as possible after they killed their beloved Elia? The Mountain is known throughout the realm as the baddest guy on the block. Jamie compares him to the legendary smiling knight and that people looking for glory would search him out and fight him and be killed. Gregor fought in Tourneys in front of all kinds of witnesses. Oberyn used a spear that negated the reach of Gregor and his great sword which is probably why he used it in the first place. Who said Oberyn had more experience then the Mountain? How do you know this? All we know is Oberyn fought with the second sounds and in the disputed lands and slept with a bunch of men and women and that's it. It was never said Oberyn went on a quest to learn different styles of combat or even how much he fought when he was in the second sons and who it was that he fought, he could have fought peasants for all we know. I feel like your assuming way too much. Also Oberyn never commanded any men on Westerosi soil while The Mountain fought in the WOT5K.

a- Oberyn made the mistake of thinking the Mountain was hurt worse then he was, he didn't drop his guard he went for the finish on a man that he judged was no longer able to put up resistance to his final attack. Oberyn never intended to grapple with the Mountain, Oberyn took Gregor's great sword to finish him then he grabbed Oberyn making him slip and fall right into Clegane grasp. What did Oberyn's feelings have anything to do with it?

b- How do you know he "totally underestimated The Mountain?" If Oberyn was so much better then Gregor and was so sure he'd beat him then why did he poison his spear? Doesn't sound like he underestimated him to me.

I also don't know where your getting the whole "the Cleganes were just big strong bruisers" thing from as I believe GRRM himself said the Cleganes are some of the top fighters living in the series.

Of course they did. However we need to be very careful here as such knowledge is very subjective.  First of all, it is very limited when compared to the modern concept. There was no filming at the time, and those who saw Gregor fight and lived to tell the tale are either his allies or they know better not to talk about it.

Also even by medieval standards, information about Gregor is somehow limited. The Mountain had barely ever participated in conventional warfare. He lived in the shadows while doing Tywin’s dirty work. Under such circumstances eye witnesses would be somehow limited as they might be used to pin the crime back to his master. In matter of fact Gregor’s sloppy work with Elia could have easily costed him his life (it did but I am referring at an earlier stage). The Lannisters could have easily used him as a sacrificial lamb to try and calm the Martells.

a- an experienced warrior would know exactly how wounded his enemy is and would never lower his guard ever. The poison he used was meant for a slow and painful death which means that he did toyed around him. 

b- ie read A.

I never said that they aren't great fighters. I only saying that top tier fighters from noble birth might have a trick or two at their sleeve that the Cleganes didn't had. Which clearly showed against Oberyn

 

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Adam Yozza said:

Wow this name is wrong on three different levels.

Thanks for the correction! I read the ToTH thread some time ago, and my memory evidently failed me.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

Lord Beric did pretty well against the hound. And yes his worst fear is fire but imo that would make him even more motivated to parry/dodge/not get burned. Plus  there would be no hound if Arya didn't save his big ass against gregor's men. 

I think Jamie could have handled that by himself that's all I'm saying 

[Faereth]

3 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Lord Beric did pretty well against the hound. And yes his worst fear is fire but imo that would make him even more motivated to parry/dodge/not get burned. Plus  there would be no hound if Arya didn't save his big ass against gregor's men. 

I think Jamie could have handled that by himself that's all I'm saying 

The Hound was drunk when he fought Gregor's men to be fair. 

And I think I'm going to agree with the OP on this one. 

 

The Hound is either better or on parr with Jaime Lannister before JL lost his hand. Even Ned thinks to himself in GOT that the Hound is the biggest concern after JL has fled Kingslanding. 

 

There are so many different characters indicating that he is a superb fighter that it can't be discredited as bias from one character. He's noted for his fighting skills across the board. 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

16 minutes ago, Faereth said:

The Hound was drunk when he fought Gregor's men to be fair. 

And I think I'm going to agree with the OP on this one. 

 

The Hound is either better or on parr with Jaime Lannister before JL lost his hand. Even Ned thinks to himself in GOT that the Hound is the biggest concern after JL has fled Kingslanding. 

 

There are so many different characters indicating that he is a superb fighter that it can't be discredited as bias from one character. He's noted for his fighting skills across the board. 

Really not trying to argue just to argue but Jamie is also noted as top-tier of the top-tiers (even all time if he had VS)

2 handed Jamie Barry and Arthur Dayne are the 3 best far and away in the past 15 years. So if we're talking about the books Jamie is in or close to his prime. He does say a FEW were stronger than himself. But also says with his combo of skill and speed added no one could beat him.

Its not bragging if u can back it up. 

I do agree the hound is top 3 however

[Leo of House Cartel]

You make a strong case @Putin, some great points from @devilish and @Ralphis Baratheon too.

A powerful element of combat is the sheer toughness of the fighters involved. We know the Hound to be an extremely tough physical presence, with long reaching limbs and a quickness that betrays his size. Sandor also shows a high tolerance for pain, aswell as strong will and determination during his fights with Beric and The Brave Companions. This hardman nature, combined with his genetic makeup and his combat experience certainly makes for a top flight fighter. These attributes would most likely have been the reason Ser Robert defeated the better trained Prince Rhaegar on the Trident.

A downside to the Sandor's all round game might be the power of his mind. Hung up on the rivalry with his brother, mentally and physically scarred/terrified by fire, aswell as having a rather arogant view on his own prowess, Sandor has several emotional chinks in his armour which could be exploited by the right opponent.

Another element to consider is the leg injury carried by The Gravedigger. If this is indeed Sandor, then he simply can't be the same fighter he once was, unless that leg heals to the point he can walk without a limp. Such a leg injury would be exloited by either a faster, defensive based fighter or a larger power player.

In regards to Oberyn, I consider him to be one of the best fighters we have seen. With the rhythmic movement and explosive flexibility of a capoeira player, the in-and-out elusiveness of point-Karate,  the timing and angles of a professional boxer, and the sportsmanship of a boxing promoter, The Red Viper clearly had the makeup for fighting

I do wonder how he would have faired if he hadn't resorted to poison, the odds would certainly be in Gregor's favour, but who knows?

The Red Viper's experience as a sellsword should not be discounted either. The life of a sellsword seems to be a more toughening experience than that of an average knight. Sellswords would probably sepend more time engaged in real combat, aswell as living in rougher conditions, surrounded by more seasoned fighters who they could learn from. Oberyn was also a highly intelligent man, something which, when combined with natural combative gifts, can make for a badman indeed.

 Oberyn showed what happens when a competitor not only loses focus, but is haunted by mental demons. Such mental triggers as the memory of Elia and her children were enough to tempt the man away from certain victory. 

Another shout could be Ser Duncan The Tall. In his fights with Aerion and Longinch, Dunk uses freestyle wrestling techniques to take his opponents down. Anyone on here who has ever wrestled will know of the style's use in real life situations. If Dunk were to impliment takedowns and suplexes in his game regularly we would have a force to be reckoned with. Such takedown based offence would be a nightmare to deal with if armoured in heavy plate and maile, aswell as Ser Dunk being a genetic freak in his own right. We don't see many fighters using such techniques in ASOIAF, perhaps due to is being considered "dishonourable", so I imagine many fighters wouldn't be too exerienced defending such techniques. Imagine Dunk shooting for the double leg on Selmy? Barry's knees would be sawdust. Even young Selmy, Jaime and Arthur might have trouble dealing with a 7ft grappler who has bitten down and "embraced the grind".

Finally. Drogo.

I understand the argument that The Dothraki are not well versed in armoured combat,  however if we take the opponent out of armour and have them fight Drogo with nothing but fists, feet, elbows, knees and headbutts, I really can't see anyone beating The Khal of Khals. If we are talking about lightly armoured combat with Drogo using an Arakh versus Barristan, Jaime, Dragonknight etc, I reckon the undefeated Khal would still have won out in the end. The Dothraki simply enjoy fighting more than the Westerosi, and the whole survival of the fittest based culture would most likely breed constant competition between young Khalakka. There's a reason even seasoned killers like the Golden Company talk of The Horse Lords in whispered tones.

Fully armoured plate and mail combat might be a different matter all together, and I wonder how Drogo's technique would have improved had he not died. I imagine he could have taken up training with a longsword and a suit of armour, perhaps even under the tutelage of Barristan or Jorah.

Also take into account Drogo's physical traits. He's often said to be at least a full head taller than all others, perhaps showing he would be around Sandor's height. He had long reach, cat like expolisive quickness, a powerful frame and also fantastic cardio. The man's braid was so long for a reason. Drogo didn't seem to have any emotional problems, other than the usual Dothraki cultural hang ups and a bit of overconfidence, his main ambition seemed to be simply "become the greatest". The Dothraki would most likely have their own version of wrestling too, as most cultures do, so he may even have that Dunk factor. 

 

[zandru]

38 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Also take into account Drogo's physical traits. He's often said to be at least a full head taller than all others, perhaps showing he would be around Sandor's height.

You bring out some really important points, in good detail. However, put Drogo into a hauberk and/or plate mail, and a lot of that critical "quickness" (and stamina) would be greatly reduced.

[The Commentator]

5 hours ago, devilish said:

The Hound and the Mountain are Tywin's dogs. They were handpicked for their size and their brutality to be class A bruisers. However, I am pretty sure, that their training is nowhere near to Jamie's, just in case the dogs decided to turn against their master. That was pretty evident during the Oberyn vs Mountain clash where the former completely outclassed the latter. 

Okay, well, yes, he did outclass the mountain but it must be remembered he also cheated with poison.  Oberyn doesn't play by the rules and he doesn't shy away from cheating.  That's what make him dangerous as a viper.  He follows a different honor code from the Andal based chivalry of the knights.  

[devilish]

Just now, Widowmaker 811 said:

Okay, well, yes, he did outclass the mountain but it must be remembered he also cheated with poison.  Oberyn doesn't play by the rules and he doesn't shy away from cheating.  That's what make him dangerous as a viper.  He follows a different honor code from the Andal based chivalry of the knights.  

IF I can recall correctly  the poison was meant to make Gregor's death as long and as painful as possible rather then to give him some advantage on the field. 

[Adam Yozza]

9 minutes ago, devilish said:

IF I can recall correctly  the poison was meant to make Gregor's death as long and as painful as possible rather then to give him some advantage on the field. 

Indeed, the poison only seemed to take effect after the fight was over. I imagine Oberyn used it to ensure that Gregor would die no matter what the outcome of the fight was.

[Leo of House Cartel]

13 minutes ago, zandru said:

You bring out some really important points, in good detail. However, put Drogo into a hauberk and/or plate mail, and a lot of that critical "quickness" (and stamina) would be greatly reduced.

Just so, I always enjoyed the scene where Barristan fights Khrazz, and this encounter gives good insight into Arakh weilders versus armoured swordsmen. While Khrazz and the other pit fighters may infact be some of the best fighters in the books, the plate and mail of Selmy proves too much of a problem for he of the red mohawk. Now I'm not sure how Khrazz's skills compare to Drogo's, yet I'd hedge a bet the good Khal would have won a scythe sword-off against the pit-fighter. Khrazz's expolsiveness gives Barristan a bit of trouble during the fight, so a warrior such as Drogo may even have been able to destroy the old man, however I doubt he would deal such a battering to an armoured Gregor or Jaime. If we go Unarmoured then it is a different matter entirely.

I don't know if we should really consider Oberyn's use of poison as cheating. Fair enough the rules of a trial by combat seem to imply only using the weapons given, but using poison in a fight with an 8ft monster who raped and killed your family isn't exactly the same as peeking during the counting process at hide and seek. If The Viper had started the fight by putting his spear point through Gregor's scrotal area, slowing the giant down, would this also be cheating? We are talking about medeival combat, which is far less constrained by rules than modern televised combat. In modern fighting, many with a striking based style may consider in unchivalrous when they get taken down and grappled and vice versa. One mans poison is another mans Jiu Jitsu, and one womans Valyrian Sword may be another womans Kickboxing.

The Dornish, along with the Crannogmen have spent years infusing their fighting styles with the use of poison, it's Gregor Clegane and other Westerosi knights who are at fault here, as they really should have caught up and learned "the ways of the woman's weapon".

Back to The Hound, another factor of his greatness should be his experience growing up with Gregor. While this relationship eventually caused Sandor great pain, it would also have meant young Sandor would have been rolling around with a much bigger opponent, heightening his core strength and mental grit. In many ways Sandor so badass because he has spent his life trying to reach the point where he could defeat his brother, and would have learned much in the ways of brutality from The Mountain. Iron sharpens iron after all.

 

[House Beaudreau]

22 hours ago, Putin said:

I am refering only to book version of Hound.He has everything to be perfect warrior :

1. Size - Roberth Baratheon is 6,6 feet tall and Hound is bigger than that as said directly by George R.R. Martin

2. Physical strength - Hound is one of 4 man Jaime consider stronger than him.He is often described as big,muscular and strong man.

3. Speed.- Many think that he is slow or has average speed ,but thats not true he is also fast with sword.

- When fighting Beric Dondarrion Arya said hound attacks were fast.

- This is what Jaime thinks : Both men were large and powerful, but Sandor Clegane was much quicker, and fought with a savagery that Lyle Crakehall could not hope to match

4. Jousting . Hound won jousting tournament in kings landing

5. Reputation : Hound is always considered to be top fighter in Westeros. Jaime always praises him. George R.R. Martin always puts Hound alongside Jaime and Barristan as best fighter in Westeros.

Hound is deadly combination of size, strength, speed and skills.I think he is best warrior in seven kingdoms.

 

 

anyone can kill anyone. I think that is kind of the point of these debates. Jamie is supposedly the best sword in Westeros and granted he was in a dungeon for a year but Brieanne handles him and gives him more than he can take. The hound is hungover when he fights Beric but still Beric nearly defeats him. If it wasn't for his stupid flaming sword the hound probably would have been cut down. He was drunk at the crossroads with Arya but some very average men at arms nearly kill him. I could also argue that the Hound might be a coward.

This is the list of Names I would definatly put before the Hound based on what we've seen and reputation

1. Barristan Selmy
2. Brieanne of Tarth
3. Garlan Tyrell
4. Aero Hotah
5. Greatjon Umber

This is a second list of people who I would definatly question them being just as capable as the hound

1. Loras Tyrell 
2. Qhorin Halfhand
3. Victarion Greyjoy
4. Hosteen Frey
5. Strong Belwas
6. Daemon Sand
7. Obara Sand
8. Beric Donarrion
9. Dario Naharis
10. Lyle Crakehall
11.  Mance Ryder
12. Donal Noyne 
13. Jon Snow
14. Jorah Mormont 
15. Etc. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Since there has been a lot of speculation and assumptions I thought I'd post some GRRM quotes that should be helpful to this thread as it specifically pertains to this topic.

SI.com: The athlete atop our athlete power list is LeBron James. Who is the equivalent of LeBron in your universe?

Martin: Well, LeBron James is the greatest active basketball player I suppose so the parallel in Westeros would be who is the greatest active swordsman. You can make a case for Jamie Lannister. You can make a case for The Hound or his brother Ser Gregor [Clegane] or Sir Loras [Tyrell], the Knight of Flowers. These are all first class Knights. Or even Ser Barristan The Bold [Sir Barristan Selmy]. These are all guys who are top at their own particular sport, which is swordsmanship and jousting, and all of the combat skills that attend knighthood.

He then goes on to say that any top fighter could beat the other on any given day because an upset is always possible.

The rest of the GRRM interview which talks about some of the training someone like Clegane would have.

[zandru]

2 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

anyone can kill anyone. I think that is kind of the point of these debates. Jamie is supposedly the best sword in Westeros and granted he was in a dungeon for a year but Brieanne handles him and gives him more than he can take. The hound is hungover when he fights Beric but still Beric nearly defeats him. If it wasn't for his stupid flaming sword the hound probably would have been cut down. He was drunk at the crossroads with Arya but some very average men at arms nearly kill him. I could also argue that the Hound might be a coward.

Oh, come now. Brienne fought a Jaime whose hands were chained together. Also, he'd spent nearly a year in a dungeon, chained up. Can anyone be surprised that she holds her own with him, until Vargo Hoat stops the festivities?

"The Hound is hungover, but still Beric nearly defeats him"? "But"?? Is this a joke? The fact that Sandor is drunk or hungover is NOT in Sandor's favor; it helps Beric. Why would he be drunk? Probably some severe PTSD from Blackwater and self-recriminations for not getting Sansa out and thus having a pass to join the Young Wolf. Self medication. People have used it ever since the first grape fermented. Then Thoros reminds Beric how the Hound was always bested by Thoros's flaming sword, so Beric lights his own sword up. Add this to the PTSD from Blackwaterr and much earlier, Beric's repeated attempts to push Sandor back into the big fire pit in the cave, Sandor's shield catching fire, and then his arm, and the fact that Sandor ultimately wins in spite of it all is a compelling tribute to the man's strength, toughness (physical and mental), and technique. Serves Beric right that the flames weakened his sword and it broke at just the wrong moment. This weakened Sandor's sword to where he later broke it off in a Frey.

You're right about Arya saving the Hound at the Crossroads Inn (Motto: nothing good ever happens here). Polliver and the Tickler were by no means "average", they were a finely honed team of dirty fighters who worked for Gregor. Sandor was (again) drunk. Also he'd been on short rations along with Arya for some time, and hadn't sparred in probably a year or so. Practice matters. I don't think this was a fair or good test of his overall ability.

I also don't think much of your list of superiors. Brienne? Maybe on the teevie show. We don't actually know that much about Garlan, other than his being bigger and older than Loras. And I won't even dignify the second list by referring to it. (Whoops! Too late!)

[Putin]

3 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

anyone can kill anyone. I think that is kind of the point of these debates. Jamie is supposedly the best sword in Westeros and granted he was in a dungeon for a year but Brieanne handles him and gives him more than he can take. The hound is hungover when he fights Beric but still Beric nearly defeats him. If it wasn't for his stupid flaming sword the hound probably would have been cut down. He was drunk at the crossroads with Arya but some very average men at arms nearly kill him. I could also argue that the Hound might be a coward.

This is the list of Names I would definatly put before the Hound based on what we've seen and reputation

1. Barristan Selmy
2. Brieanne of Tarth
3. Garlan Tyrell
4. Aero Hotah
5. Greatjon Umber

This is a second list of people who I would definatly question them being just as capable as the hound

1. Loras Tyrell 
2. Qhorin Halfhand
3. Victarion Greyjoy
4. Hosteen Frey
5. Strong Belwas
6. Daemon Sand
7. Obara Sand
8. Beric Donarrion
9. Dario Naharis
10. Lyle Crakehall
11.  Mance Ryder
12. Donal Noyne 
13. Jon Snow
14. Jorah Mormont 
15. Etc. 

Hhhaahahha. Only Barristan Selmy and Jaime Lannister (I am not counting death persons like Arthur Dayne,Deamon Blackfyre) have better reputation than Hound.. From your first list only Selmy is above Hound rest of them are below him. (As I said I am only refering to book not TV show feats). Your second list is joke and nonsense.Jon Snow 15 years old boy is capable as Hound ? Obara Sand and Donal Noye lol.If you read the book Jaime already said Hound > Lyle Crakehall.

In interview George R.R: Martin said that Jaime Lannister,Hound, Mountain ,Loras and Barristan are best living warriors in the books.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

9 hours ago, devilish said:

Of course they did. However we need to be very careful here as such knowledge is very subjective.  First of all, it is very limited when compared to the modern concept. There was no filming at the time, and those who saw Gregor fight and lived to tell the tale are either his allies or they know better not to talk about it.

 

Also even by medieval standards, information about Gregor is somehow limited. The Mountain had barely ever participated in conventional warfare. He lived in the shadows while doing Tywin’s dirty work. Under such circumstances eye witnesses would be somehow limited as they might be used to pin the crime back to his master. In matter of fact Gregor’s sloppy work with Elia could have easily costed him his life (it did but I am referring at an earlier stage). The Lannisters could have easily used him as a sacrificial lamb to try and calm the Martells.

 

 

a- an experienced warrior would know exactly how wounded his enemy is and would never lower his guard ever. The poison he used was meant for a slow and painful death which means that he did toyed around him. 

b- ie read A.

I never said that they aren't great fighters. I only saying that top tier fighters from noble birth might have a trick or two at their sleeve that the Cleganes didn't had. Which clearly showed against Oberyn

 

Gregor fought in tournaments and thousands of witnesses saw him fight. How can murdering a babe and defenseless woman not be sloppy work? He found them then killed Aegon and raped and killed Elia, I don't see how that can be done "clean." He's a murdering scumbag but still a great fighter.

a-Then Oberyn is not an experienced warrior by your standards because he misjudges how hurt Clegane was. Why did Oberyn use poison if he was going to chop Gregor's head off? The poison hadn't even taken effect and wouldn't have if Oberyn had won the duel. 

The Cleganes are both from noble birth, and Gregor had the last trick up his sleeve and won the duel.

[zandru]

40 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Gregor had the last trick up his sleeve and won the duel.

Well yes - but Oberon's last trick did for Gregor, too. One can't help but wonder what Gregor's "unlife" is like now, as Ser Robert Strong. I wonder if George RR plans for his little brother to put him out of his misery. I agree, Sandor's leg would probably need to get a lot better, first. If it even can, given the state of the art of medieval medicine.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

30 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well yes - but Oberon's last trick did for Gregor, too. One can't help but wonder what Gregor's "unlife" is like now, as Ser Robert Strong. I wonder if George RR plans for his little brother to put him out of his misery. I agree, Sandor's leg would probably need to get a lot better, first. If it even can, given the state of the art of medieval medicine.

Gregor can't urinate or defecate and probably can't talk but he still can crush heads. Oberyn can no longer poison people. As far as Sandor goes all we know is he has a limp, it could maybe still heal or maybe it can't.

[House Beaudreau]

4 hours ago, zandru said:

"The Hound is hungover, but still Beric nearly defeats him"? "But"?? Is this a joke? The fact that Sandor is drunk or hungover is NOT in Sandor's favor; it helps Beric. Why would he be drunk? Probably some severe PTSD from Blackwater and self-recriminations for not getting Sansa out and thus having a pass to join the Young Wolf. Self medication. People have used it ever since the first grape fermented. Then Thoros reminds Beric how the Hound was always bested by Thoros's flaming sword, so Beric lights his own sword up. Add this to the PTSD from Blackwaterr and much earlier, Beric's repeated attempts to push Sandor back into the big fire pit in the cave, Sandor's shield catching fire, and then his arm, and the fact that Sandor ultimately wins in spite of it all is a compelling tribute to the man's strength, toughness (physical and mental), and technique. Serves Beric right that the flames weakened his sword and it broke at just the wrong moment. This weakened Sandor's sword to where he later broke it off in a Frey.

This is exactly my point, The Hound arguably has a drinking problem, The PTSD sure its a factor but what it comes down to, the fight against Beric and at the Crossroads he doesn't perform all that well. Nearly killed both times and none of those guys are big names. We don't hear anything about his deeds during Robert's Rebellion or on Pyke? We haven't heard of any big tourney victories other than the hand's tourney. He fled from the Blackwater. It all adds up to him not being the "Best fighter in Westeros"

 

4 hours ago, Putin said:

Hhhaahahha. Only Barristan Selmy and Jaime Lannister (I am not counting death persons like Arthur Dayne,Deamon Blackfyre) have better reputation than Hound.. From your first list only Selmy is above Hound rest of them are below him. (As I said I am only refering to book not TV show feats). Your second list is joke and nonsense.Jon Snow 15 years old boy is capable as Hound ? Obara Sand and Donal Noye lol.If you read the book Jaime already said Hound > Lyle Crakehall.

I guess I'm asking why does the Hound have such a big reputation? We've never heard of anything he's ever done to distinguish himself in battle or even in tourneys. His big, scary, and strong. But could some of his reputation be from the overall perception of house Clegane?  

Why are the people on the second list a joke? because they don't have as big of a reputation as the Hound? Sure Obara and Daemon Sand are kind of a reach, But they were trained by Oberyn so lets call them wildcards. Jon Snow is also questionable by he had the same training as Robb Stark would was good in battle, and the only people we know to have bested Jon are the Halfhand and Mance. but I could make a case for everyone else and more to add. My point is the same one that Barristan Selmy makes to Dany, that even the best fighters can slip on some grass or whatever and they end up dying. Some one can win the day in a tourney and go out early the next one. If you look at competitive martial arts, or MMA, boxing, olympic fencing, or even high school wrestling it is the same. The best get beaten all the time so who really is the best? 

Belwas is arguably the greatest pit fighter of all time. He is crazy strong and fearless? One on One?

Jorah Mormont fought in the rebellion, and was one of the first men through the breach at Pkye and was knighted for his bravery by Robert. He then when on to Win the tourney at Lannisport and went lance for lance with Jamie who makes your list. He then kills a Dothraki bloodrider and leads forces in battles against three huge slave cities. No slouch.

Donel Noye killed a giant with one arm, he makes the list.

Mance Ryder we know is fast and furious but also he became king beyond the wall which is no easy feat if your not a awesome fighter.

    etc.