Sandor Clegane is best all rounder fighter.

[House Beaudreau]

12 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Finally. Drogo.

I understand the argument that The Dothraki are not well versed in armoured combat,  however if we take the opponent out of armour and have them fight Drogo with nothing but fists, feet, elbows, knees and headbutts, I really can't see anyone beating The Khal of Khals. If we are talking about lightly armoured combat with Drogo using an Arakh versus Barristan, Jaime, Dragonknight etc, I reckon the undefeated Khal would still have won out in the end. The Dothraki simply enjoy fighting more than the Westerosi, and the whole survival of the fittest based culture would most likely breed constant competition between young Khalakka. There's a reason even seasoned killers like the Golden Company talk of The Horse Lords in whispered tones.

By this Logic would Strong Belwas be at the worlds most dangerous list? He is arguably the greatest living pit fighter, He even lets every opponent scar him first, talk about being in control of every fight hes ever been in. He defeats Meereen's champion in a laughable manner and just so causally. He is crazy strong for a normal man let alone a eunuch. He is totally fearless and probably has the healthiest diet in the the whole series. 

[Lord Lannister]

You have to love threads where you can express any opinion you want to without any fear of being disproven.

 

[Leo of House Cartel]

7 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

By this Logic would Strong Belwas be at the worlds most dangerous list? He is arguably the greatest living pit fighter, He even lets every opponent scar him first, talk about being in control of every fight hes ever been in. He defeats Meereen's champion in a laughable manner and just so causally. He is crazy strong for a normal man let alone a eunuch. He is totally fearless and probably has the healthiest diet in the the whole series. 

Dude I'd have Belwas in the Murderer's Row for sure! Thats a nice touch about his diet BTW :-)

Again, fighting in plate and mail may be a different story, but in terms of sheer toughness bordering on insanity, Strong Belwas must be taken into account. The man cearly has been trained to an exeptional level, judging by the way he comedically dissmissed mounted opponent Oznak Zo Pahl. That Pit Fighter training cannot be forgoten about either. A life of fighting other slaves to the death would alter a combatants mind and body into a killing machine, remember, It was Belwas who "raised the pit-fighters" during Dany's the seige of Merreen, perhaps showing us the mans reputation proceeds him.

Another factor to consider is the fact Illyrio chose Belwas to not only protect Dragon Queen Dany, but also to help Legendary Swordsman Barristan. This again shows that Belwas' abilities are thought of highly, as Illyrio is so rich he could have paid for any hardman nutcase/technical master to accompany Barristan, yet he chose a 15/20 stone pit-fighting slave. Strong Belwas- Don't Sweat The Technique.

As you said he lets his opponent get a free cut in before commencing the dance, such tatics would no doubt be exploited by a more technically sound opponent like Jaquen, or even a bigger and more brutal foe such as Sandor.

[devilish]

15 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Gregor fought in tournaments and thousands of witnesses saw him fight. How can murdering a babe and defenseless woman not be sloppy work? He found them then killed Aegon and raped and killed Elia, I don't see how that can be done "clean." He's a murdering scumbag but still a great fighter.

a-Then Oberyn is not an experienced warrior by your standards because he misjudges how hurt Clegane was. Why did Oberyn use poison if he was going to chop Gregor's head off? The poison hadn't even taken effect and wouldn't have if Oberyn had won the duel. 

The Cleganes are both from noble birth, and Gregor had the last trick up his sleeve and won the duel.

a- tournaments are not the same as duels and the battlefield. 

b- I think that Tywin would have wanted Gregor to be more discreet and to avoid any witnessed that could link him to Elia's death. At that point, the old lion could have easily put the blame on someone else, possibly the mad king. That was sloppy

c- Oberyn was experienced but he left emotions get the better of him. He should have ended it quickly instead of playing around Gregor in a bit to make his death as painful as possible

The cleganes are landed knights. They are not nobility

[Putin]

19 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

This is exactly my point, The Hound arguably has a drinking problem, The PTSD sure its a factor but what it comes down to, the fight against Beric and at the Crossroads he doesn't perform all that well. Nearly killed both times and none of those guys are big names. We don't hear anything about his deeds during Robert's Rebellion or on Pyke? We haven't heard of any big tourney victories other than the hand's tourney. He fled from the Blackwater. It all adds up to him not being the "Best fighter in Westeros"

 

I guess I'm asking why does the Hound have such a big reputation? We've never heard of anything he's ever done to distinguish himself in battle or even in tourneys. His big, scary, and strong. But could some of his reputation be from the overall perception of house Clegane?  

Why are the people on the second list a joke? because they don't have as big of a reputation as the Hound? Sure Obara and Daemon Sand are kind of a reach, But they were trained by Oberyn so lets call them wildcards. Jon Snow is also questionable by he had the same training as Robb Stark would was good in battle, and the only people we know to have bested Jon are the Halfhand and Mance. but I could make a case for everyone else and more to add. My point is the same one that Barristan Selmy makes to Dany, that even the best fighters can slip on some grass or whatever and they end up dying. Some one can win the day in a tourney and go out early the next one. If you look at competitive martial arts, or MMA, boxing, olympic fencing, or even high school wrestling it is the same. The best get beaten all the time so who really is the best? 

Belwas is arguably the greatest pit fighter of all time. He is crazy strong and fearless? One on One?

Jorah Mormont fought in the rebellion, and was one of the first men through the breach at Pkye and was knighted for his bravery by Robert. He then when on to Win the tourney at Lannisport and went lance for lance with Jamie who makes your list. He then kills a Dothraki bloodrider and leads forces in battles against three huge slave cities. No slouch.

Donel Noye killed a giant with one arm, he makes the list.

Mance Ryder we know is fast and furious but also he became king beyond the wall which is no easy feat if your not a awesome fighter.

    etc. 

Hound has big reputation because :

1) George R.R. Martin said that Hound,Jaime,Loras ,Barristan, and Mountain are best active warriors.

2) Jaime always praises him more than any alive warrior (except Selmy). Others also praise Hound.

Yes I watch MMA / Boxing and I know next :

- Smaller but faster fighters don´t go that good

- There are some extremely strong and big ones but slow fighter. They don´t do that well.

- Those who have combination of size ,strength and speed too ,they are best in their sport.

Yes smaller and faster man can beat stronger man. But if that stronger man also has speed he would in most cases win against his opponents.

Take a look at Vladimir Klitschko: He is big and strong but he is not slow he is also fast. He was dominating for 10 years.

Thats exactly what Hound is : big ,strong and fast compared to for example , Lyle Crakehall who is only big and strong but don´t have speed like Hound. This is why Jaime said Hound would beat Lyle Crakehall.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

13 hours ago, devilish said:

a- tournaments are not the same as duels and the battlefield. 

b- I think that Tywin would have wanted Gregor to be more discreet and to avoid any witnessed that could link him to Elia's death. At that point, the old lion could have easily put the blame on someone else, possibly the mad king. That was sloppy

c- Oberyn was experienced but he left emotions get the better of him. He should have ended it quickly instead of playing around Gregor in a bit to make his death as painful as possible

The cleganes are landed knights. They are not nobility

a- A melee is as close to a fight on a battle field as you can possibly get. You can see how big, strong and fast a person is while they compete. You can see their fighting style as well. People get killed in melees and jousts all the time as participants obviously do not hold back. In jousting you can see how good a person rides and how good their hand eye coordination is. To dismiss how a person fights in a tournament would be foolish. The winners of the contests also get huge amounts of money as well. 

Further more the Mountain got into an actual sword fight with his brother Sandor Clegane at the tourney of the hand in the first book. Thousands of people watched Gregor try to kill Sandor in a duel. So you can't really argue that Gregor kept his fighting style and abilities hidden when he's trying to kill his brother in front of all of King's Landing where people came from all over the realm to watch and participate in.

b- Tywin presented the bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon to Robert Baratheon as a token of fealty to his new King. At no point did Tywin ever plan on blaming the murders of Aegon, Rhaenys or even Elia on the Mad King. I have no idea where you got that idea from. Tywin sat out the war until Robert and his new allies had all but won it. So Tywin had to do something to prove his loyalty to his new King and the sack of King's Landing and murders of Aegon and Rhaenys was what he did to do that. He eliminated any future threats to Robert's throne for him and did not hide it when he presented Aegon and Rhaenys bodies in a Lannister cloak to Robert.
 

c- How did Oberyn let his emotions get the best of him? He had to use Gregor's great sword to finish the duel because the Mountain was too durable to be finish by his spear alone. That's when Gregor took advantage of Oberyn's mistake and grabbed the Viper and crushed him. What did Oberyn's emotional status have to do with his choice of using Gregor's sword?

The Cleganes are high born and are Knights and were raised in a Keep with servants. There is no reason to think they did not have the same training other noble lords in Westeros have had. Sandor Clegane was chosen as the Crown Prince Joffrey Baratheon's body guard, if he had anything less then the best training in the realm and wasn't considered one of the best fighters in the realm he would not have gotten that job. Cersei, Tywin and Robert would not have allowed it. Gregor Clegane was Knighted by the Crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen himself. Being Knighted by the heir of the Seven Kingdom is a pretty huge deal. 

 

[Makk]

5 hours ago, Putin said:

) George R.R. Martin said that Hound,Jaime,Loras ,Barristan, and Mountain are best active warriors.

Forgive my scepticism, but where is the source of him saying this? This does not sound like something he would say at all.

[aryagonnakill#2]

37 minutes ago, Makk said:

Forgive my scepticism, but where is the source of him saying this? This does not sound like something he would say at all.

It came from Putin... so we should probably just acknowledge the opposite.

lol I had to. 

In all realism it seems that this poster has decided that GRRM making Jaime say something is the same as GRRM saying something, in actuality the only things he has similarly has said was that Jaime was the best fighter at the start of the books, and that Barristan and A. Dayne were equals but that Dayne wins with Dawn.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

3 hours ago, Makk said:

Forgive my scepticism, but where is the source of him saying this? This does not sound like something he would say at all.

Here is a link where GRRM said something very similar. He then goes on to say anyone of them could best the other as upsets are always a possibility just like in boxing and other sports. He then says Garlan may be better then Loras later down the interview when comparing them to the Manning brothers so take it for what it's worth.

GRRM Sports SI interview  

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Sandor is onde of the best prime robert's in the story...

Sorry i meant fighters...

It's not just swordsmanship in a duel, folks have to think about that, Jaime dayne and barri are the top 3 swords and none of them is a better fighter/warrior than prime Robert, and sandor can dispute a spot in his best day maybe, pretty close to legendary level

[Putin]

16 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

It came from Putin... so we should probably just acknowledge the opposite.

lol I had to. 

In all realism it seems that this poster has decided that GRRM making Jaime say something is the same as GRRM saying something, in actuality the only things he has similarly has said was that Jaime was the best fighter at the start of the books, and that Barristan and A. Dayne were equals but that Dayne wins with Dawn.

When did FRRM said that Jaime was best fighter in the start of the books.

Here is quote of GRRM :

SI.com: The athlete atop our athlete power list is LeBron James. Who is the equivalent of LeBron in your universe?

Martin: Well, LeBron James is the greatest active basketball player I suppose so the parallel in Westeros would be who is the greatest active swordsman. You can make a case for Jamie Lannister. You can make a case for The Hound or his brother Ser Gregor [Clegane] or Sir Loras [Tyrell], the Knight of Flowers. These are all first class Knights. Or even Ser Barristan The Bold [Sir Barristan Selmy]. These are all guys who are top at their own particular sport, which is swordsmanship and jousting, and all of the combat skills that attend knighthood.

[Makk]

16 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Here is a link where GRRM said something very similar. He then goes on to say anyone of them could best the other as upsets are always a possibility just like in boxing and other sports. He then says Garlan may be better then Loras later down the interview when comparing them to the Manning brothers so take it for what it's worth.

GRRM Sports SI interview  

This is why it would be great if people always provide the source when they are making these arguments using quotes from GRRM outside the source material (also book quotes inside the material is important as well, but at least in that case we can reasonably have been expected to have read it). Just small subtle details do not match with what was claimed. GRRM was giving a lighthearted talk about comparing sportsman to his warrior characters. He says...

"You can make a case for The Hound or his brother Ser Gregor [Clegane] or Sir Loras [Tyrell], the Knight of Flowers. These are all first class Knights. Or even Ser Barristan The Bold [Sir Barristan Selmy]. These are all guys who are top at their own particular sport, which is swordsmanship and jousting, and all of the combat skills that attend knighthood."

Note the importance of those first 6 words. To reinforce that just a couple of questions later he says...

"Eli Manning would probably be someone like Loras Tyrell, the Knight of Flowers, who has a bigger brother, Lord Garlan Tyrell, who is an even better swordsman than he is (laughs). 

If this was the only source, GRRM did NOT definitively say...

On 4/12/2017 at 9:48 AM, Putin said:

1) George R.R. Martin said that Hound,Jaime,Loras ,Barristan, and Mountain are best active warriors.

.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

6 minutes ago, Makk said:

This is why it would be great if people always provide the source when they are making these arguments using quotes from GRRM outside the source material (also book quotes inside the material is important as well, but at least in that case we can reasonably have been expected to have read it). Just small subtle details do not match with what was claimed. GRRM was giving a lighthearted talk about comparing sportsman to his warrior characters. He says...

"You can make a case for The Hound or his brother Ser Gregor [Clegane] or Sir Loras [Tyrell], the Knight of Flowers. These are all first class Knights. Or even Ser Barristan The Bold [Sir Barristan Selmy]. These are all guys who are top at their own particular sport, which is swordsmanship and jousting, and all of the combat skills that attend knighthood."

Note the importance of those first 6 words. To reinforce that just a couple of questions later he says...

"Eli Manning would probably be someone like Loras Tyrell, the Knight of Flowers, who has a bigger brother, Lord Garlan Tyrell, who is an even better swordsman than he is (laughs). 

If this was the only source, GRRM did NOT definitively say...

.

What I got out of it is Sandor and the others are among the best and could beat anyone any given day and they could also lose to each other and other top fighters any given day as well. The fact is duels do not decide outcomes of battles or wars so on the battle field anyone can fall. 

However if someone where to say Sandor Clegane is one of the top fighters in Westeros I wouldn't disagree.

[Makk]

2 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

What I got out of it is Sandor and the others are among the best and could beat anyone any given day and they could also lose to each other and other top fighters any given day as well. The fact is duels do not decide outcomes of battles or wars so on the battle field anyone can fall. 

However if someone where to say Sandor Clegane is one of the top fighters in Westeros I wouldn't disagree.

Yeah I agree with that. My biggest issue with what had been originally claimed was around Loras, where I felt that GRRM had pretty clearly stated within the text that Garlan was the superior fighter. To claim that George had, outside the actual material, said that Loras was superior did not sound correct to me.

I also think that what he said was in no way supposed to be definitive. Tourneys are a sport down in the south and this is what GRRM was talking about. It isn't a sport in the north and there are also plenty of other fighters you could make cases for.

[House Beaudreau]

2 hours ago, Putin said:

Martin: Well, LeBron James is the greatest active basketball player I suppose so the parallel in Westeros would be who is the greatest active swordsman. You can make a case for Jamie Lannister. You can make a case for The Hound or his brother Ser Gregor [Clegane] or Sir Loras [Tyrell], the Knight of Flowers. These are all first class Knights. Or even Ser Barristan The Bold [Sir Barristan Selmy]. These are all guys who are top at their own particular sport, which is swordsmanship and jousting, and all of the combat skills that attend knighthood.

I've seen this quote but in the context of the interview I think he was touching on perception of the people in his world and fans of the series. He leaves out people like Brieanne because obiviously in this world no one would ever consider a woman a warrior let alone the greatest of all time. After all George is a feminist and there is a strong feminist message throughout the books. 

[House Beaudreau]

21 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

How did Oberyn let his emotions get the best of him? He had to use Gregor's great sword to finish the duel because the Mountain was too durable to be finish by his spear alone. That's when Gregor took advantage of Oberyn's mistake and grabbed the Viper and crushed him. What did Oberyn's emotional status have to do with his choice of using Gregor's sword?

I didn't see this as a emotional decision at all. I assume your talking about him trying to make the Mountain confess. He was pretty focused on getting Gregor to confess and publicly state who gave the order. It was calculated to get him to confess. Had he been successful in getting Gregor to confess in front of the whole court that Tywin gave the order to kill Elia's children the Lannister reputation gets destroyed and thats one thing that Tywin holds dearest, even more than his own children.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

5 minutes ago, House Beaudreau said:

I didn't see this as a emotional decision at all. I assume your talking about him trying to make the Mountain confess. He was pretty focused on getting Gregor to confess and publicly state who gave the order. It was calculated to get him to confess. Had he been successful in getting Gregor to confess in front of the whole court that Tywin gave the order to kill Elia's children the Lannister reputation gets destroyed and thats one thing that Tywin holds dearest, even more than his own children.

Oberyn never asked Gregor "who gave the order" during the duel in the books. Oberyn wanted Gregor to confess he killed Elia and Aegon at the beginning of the duel then just wanted Gregor to "say her name" by the end. He never demanded or asked Gregor who or if someone gave him the order to kill Elia and Aegon.

Most already knew Gregor killed Elia and Aegon so when he confessed before crushing Oberyn it only confirmed what most people already knew or suspected.

Gregor vs Oberyn duel audio

[John Doe]

Drogon is the best fighter. 

[Putin]

On 13.4.2017. at 2:14 AM, House Beaudreau said:

 He leaves out people like Brieanne because obiviously in this world no one would ever consider a woman a warrior let alone the greatest of all time.

He leaves her out because in the books she is nowhere near elite level. In the show she is juggernaut ,probably best warrior now.

1.In the book Brienne admit she would lose to Jaime Lannister if he wasn´t chained and weak from prison (while in the show she said Jaime is overrated).

2.Her performance against Loras wasn´t that great she won with trick.

3.Its said that Ser Robar Royce is 2 times better swordsman than Brienne.

4. Bitter beats her in the books.

Brienne is nowhere near strong in the books and as I said I only counted book versions..

 

[devilish]

On 12/04/2017 at 3:28 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

a- A melee is as close to a fight on a battle field as you can possibly get. You can see how big, strong and fast a person is while they compete. You can see their fighting style as well. People get killed in melees and jousts all the time as participants obviously do not hold back. In jousting you can see how good a person rides and how good their hand eye coordination is. To dismiss how a person fights in a tournament would be foolish. The winners of the contests also get huge amounts of money as well. 

Further more the Mountain got into an actual sword fight with his brother Sandor Clegane at the tourney of the hand in the first book. Thousands of people watched Gregor try to kill Sandor in a duel. So you can't really argue that Gregor kept his fighting style and abilities hidden when he's trying to kill his brother in front of all of King's Landing where people came from all over the realm to watch and participate in.

b- Tywin presented the bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon to Robert Baratheon as a token of fealty to his new King. At no point did Tywin ever plan on blaming the murders of Aegon, Rhaenys or even Elia on the Mad King. I have no idea where you got that idea from. Tywin sat out the war until Robert and his new allies had all but won it. So Tywin had to do something to prove his loyalty to his new King and the sack of King's Landing and murders of Aegon and Rhaenys was what he did to do that. He eliminated any future threats to Robert's throne for him and did not hide it when he presented Aegon and Rhaenys bodies in a Lannister cloak to Robert.
 

c- How did Oberyn let his emotions get the best of him? He had to use Gregor's great sword to finish the duel because the Mountain was too durable to be finish by his spear alone. That's when Gregor took advantage of Oberyn's mistake and grabbed the Viper and crushed him. What did Oberyn's emotional status have to do with his choice of using Gregor's sword?

The Cleganes are high born and are Knights and were raised in a Keep with servants. There is no reason to think they did not have the same training other noble lords in Westeros have had. Sandor Clegane was chosen as the Crown Prince Joffrey Baratheon's body guard, if he had anything less then the best training in the realm and wasn't considered one of the best fighters in the realm he would not have gotten that job. Cersei, Tywin and Robert would not have allowed it. Gregor Clegane was Knighted by the Crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen himself. Being Knighted by the heir of the Seven Kingdom is a pretty huge deal. 

 

a- its still not a real fight though. The Clegane brothers could not and would not use their dirty tricks in a tournament, especially since there's nothing for them to gain by doing that + they might end up killing a Lord Paramount son, causing more headaches to their protector in the process. Sure people do die in these tournament as playing soldiers does have consequences. However unlike a real war, the intention here is not to kill.

a2- Gregor lost it and Sandor did what was right for his family and his liege lord and stopped him. God knows what would have happened if Mace's favourite son ended up in shreds in a tournament meant for people to enjoy themselves. However, again, it was not a real fight. In a real fight, no one would be able to stop the two, certainly not some fat king

b- That was not his call to make. Royal families are judged by the truimphant King not by a warden, especially not by a warden who sat throughout the entire war and only acted when the war was won. Tywin did what he did out of pure interest. He knew the Baratheon history very well.  He knew that Robert's ancestor gained legitimacy over the Stormlands by sparing and marrying Argella. Therefore he took that option away from Robert. After that massacre, the remaining Targ family fled Westeros for good and any possible chance of re-pacification between the Targs and Baratheon dynasty fled with it. Westeros is in such mess because of Tywin.

c-The first thing you learn in martial arts is to avoid conflict. That’s exactly what Bronn did. Oberyn was a prince, Gregor was a landed knight, the difference in rank is striking. There was a million and one way to kill Gregor without having a prince stooping at some bruiser level. 

Oberyn second mistake was to use a poison whose aim was to inflict an agonising and long agony.  A rational warrior who is well versed with poison would have used a poison that causes a quick death ex muscle relaxants such as curare. There are poisons who would have weakened the mountain in matter of minutes. Despose your enemy quickly is the aim of most street fighters.

Oberyn third mistake was he wasn’t focusing on his fight. His constant rambling about Elia is a clear testament to that. Oberyn had all reason not to respect the man but he should have respected his opponent as a fighter. One mistake is all it took for Gregor to make mince-meat out of him. Oberyn should have known better.

c- The Cleganes dynasty are 2 generations old and they became highborn thanks to Tytos charity. If you think that these people have the same access of centuries of military knowledge as the Tarlys do or can afford the same training and equipment of Jamie then be my guest.