Jump to content

More important connections w/Targs and their numerous monstrous still births??


Rachel of Oldstones

Recommended Posts

Throughout the series, including WOIAF, The Princess and the Queen (and or the Rogue Prince), and A Game Of Thrones' Dany chapter we read about these monstrous stillbirths.. I don't believe we learn of any other family birthing these inhuman stillbirths... I am sorry I don't have the books handy for direct quotes but I couldn't find any discussion on how oddly almost dragon-like these stillborn babies appear. IIRC they've been described as scaled, clawed and other almost reptilian appearances. While I'm pretty sure most of these are told as second hand accounts, I feel like it's mentioned too many times for it to be ignored...

I would love a good theory, even if it's tinfoil-y. If I'm forgetting or missing some key info please share your knowledge/thoughts. Or leave a link if you know of any good reads that expands on the subject...

As usual, Im sure I've come to the right place for everything ASOIAF, so thanks in advance!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Blood magic, fire magic and incest take your pick.  

Sure, obviously that could answer it... But, I think it deserves a little more discussion... They're certainly not the only family to make a practice of either or all of these though so why do we keep reading about it happening to the Targs?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Rachel of Oldstones said:

Sure, obviously that could answer it... But, I think it deserves a little more discussion... They're certainly not the only family to make a practice of either or all of these though so why do we keep reading about it happening to the Targs?

They are pretty unique as far as brother-sister incest goes. That isn't exactly something we see other families practice on a regular basis.

And even so, the Habsburgs weren't the only European dynasty that practiced incest, yet they were the ones that got slapped with the infamous Habsburg Chin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

I still like the idea that Danerys' baby had harlequin ichtyosis. Aside from the supposed wings and instant grave worms (which Mirri might have exaggerated to hurt Dany more) it sounded pretty spot on.

I have to admit I had to a quick Google search on this one ..

So do you believe that's the explanation for grey scale and Targs can like develop it in the womb and the children don't survive to their births? 

I like that as a more sci fi answer to grey scale I just can't understand why we only hear about with this specific family.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

They are pretty unique as far as brother-sister incest goes. That isn't exactly something we see other families practice on a regular basis.

And even so, the Habsburgs weren't the only European dynasty that practiced incest, yet they were the ones that got slapped with the infamous Habsburg Chin.

Of course! And the Hanovers' Victoria first cousin marriage, becoming known as the Grandmother Europe passing on her now well known genetic bleedin disorder.   But while something widely n considered to be a result of hers and get children and grwndchildrens' incestual reproduction, it's known to have occurred in other families without bloodties to hers.

What makes it uniquely Targ , is their reptilian appearances mentioned multiple times in throughout the storys long timeline and that the Targs unique(especially Dany the only current one were sure of) affiliation with dragons. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stillbirths were fairly common in medieval times, and having generation upon generation of inbreeding did not help either. 

I'm sure many were born with some defects, but 95% of it was obviously exaggerated by the common folk. The Targaryens held an almost mystical aura to them; a lot of peasants still saw them as demi-gods. Everything about them would have been blown out of proportion in gossip. And when some king or great lord has a stillbirth, people will always speculate and let their imaginations go wild. These stories about monsters being born to great families is not exclusive to the Targaryens, either. Look no further than Tyrion, who was supposedly born a hermaphrodite demon with bat wings and a tail. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Rachel of Oldstones said:

I have to admit I had to a quick Google search on this one ..

So do you believe that's the explanation for grey scale and Targs can like develop it in the womb and the children don't survive to their births? 

I like that as a more sci fi answer to grey scale I just can't understand why we only hear about with this specific family.

Sorry about making you google that, I know it's a very distrubing defect. The good news is with modern medical care those people can survive infancy and go on to lead fairly normal lives.

No I don't think it's the explanation for Greyscale, Ichtyosis is a birth defect, Greyscale is an infectious disease, probably something that leads to necrosis.

Just when a person form a Medieval society describes a baby as being covered in scales and such, I tend to think of Harlequin Ichtyosis.

11 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

Stillbirths were fairly common in medieval times, and having generation upon generation of inbreeding did not help either. 

I'm sure many were born with some defects, but 95% of it was obviously exaggerated by the common folk. The Targaryens held an almost mystical aura to them; a lot of peasants still saw them as demi-gods. Everything about them would have been blown out of proportion in gossip. And when some king or great lord has a stillbirth, people will always speculate and let their imaginations go wild. These stories about monsters being born to great families is not exclusive to the Targaryens, either. Look no further than Tyrion, who was supposedly born a hermaphrodite demon with bat wings and a tail. 

^Pretty much this. And it's not just with infants, even adults like Robb and grown up Tyrion are made into werewolves and demon monkeys in popular conception.

It's easy to see a rumour start like that: a random Targ Queen gives birth to a stillborn infant. One of the midwives present later goes to the tavern and, in order to get attention from others, makes up a story about a severely deformed deagonspawn baby, form there it passes to a singer and he makes a son about it. 

Rumour and propaganda were extremely strong in earlier ages, that's how Richard III became a hunchback and Anne Boleyn got her sixth finger. Stuff like that still happens today, but mostly in fringe groups.

Though I agree that in the case of ASoIaF it's extremely difficult to tell fact from myth sometimes. After all that is a world with dragons,  unicorns, forest elves, and ice zombies. The shadow demon Mellisandre brithed was real, as were the resurrections performed by Thoros of Myr. So a werewolf or a demon monkey aren't that unlikely and neither is the idea of Targaryens giving brith to stillborn lizard people. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Rachel of Oldstones said:

Throughout the series, including WOIAF, The Princess and the Queen (and or the Rogue Prince), and A Game Of Thrones' Dany chapter we read about these monstrous stillbirths.. I don't believe we learn of any other family birthing these inhuman stillbirths... I am sorry I don't have the books handy for direct quotes but I couldn't find any discussion on how oddly almost dragon-like these stillborn babies appear. IIRC they've been described as scaled, clawed and other almost reptilian appearances. While I'm pretty sure most of these are told as second hand accounts, I feel like it's mentioned too many times for it to be ignored...

I would love a good theory, even if it's tinfoil-y. If I'm forgetting or missing some key info please share your knowledge/thoughts. Or leave a link if you know of any good reads that expands on the subject...

As usual, Im sure I've come to the right place for everything ASOIAF, so thanks in advance!!

Valyrian mythology has them descending from the dragons that they ended up controlling, with the earliest members of the race having scales, wings and tales. If there is any truth to that, then every once in a while a recessive gene might show up that could produce a scaly stillborn -- especially if someone were to perform some kind of blood magic ritual on the mother in late term.

Makes me wonder if Maggy the Frog had somehow gotten close to Joanna sometime in 273...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Valyrian mythology has them descending from the dragons that they ended up controlling, with the earliest members of the race having scales, wings and tales. If there is any truth to that, then every once in a while a recessive gene might show up that could produce a scaly stillborn -- especially if someone were to perform some kind of blood magic ritual on the mother in late term.

Makes me wonder if Maggy the Frog had somehow gotten close to Joanna sometime in 273...

I didn't think about that, while it's probably just myth.. And I'm starting to think there's not much to it but there are a number of references to not just still births, but the odd appearance of a number of diff Targ's throughout the history of Ice and Fire... But like i said, And maybe I'm missing something but I don't recall any other family having those inhuman looking stillborns. But I'm pretty sure they've all been 2nd hand accounts.. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/10/2017 at 5:22 PM, Rachel of Oldstones said:

Throughout the series, including WOIAF, The Princess and the Queen (and or the Rogue Prince), and A Game Of Thrones' Dany chapter we read about these monstrous stillbirths.. I don't believe we learn of any other family birthing these inhuman stillbirths... I am sorry I don't have the books handy for direct quotes but I couldn't find any discussion on how oddly almost dragon-like these stillborn babies appear. IIRC they've been described as scaled, clawed and other almost reptilian appearances. While I'm pretty sure most of these are told as second hand accounts, I feel like it's mentioned too many times for it to be ignored...

I would love a good theory, even if it's tinfoil-y. If I'm forgetting or missing some key info please share your knowledge/thoughts. Or leave a link if you know of any good reads that expands on the subject...

As usual, Im sure I've come to the right place for everything ASOIAF, so thanks in advance!!

"Numerous" is an exaggeration for the monstrous part.  "Monstrosity" is a loosely used term.  After all, Tyrion could be described as "monstrous".  As far as the other families, well, think on it.  What other family is constantly in the limelight as the Targaryens?  No other family.   This whole saga of A Song of Ice and Fire is primarily about the Targaryen family.  The World book is their history.  No other family has been as high profile as the Targaryens.  The Targaryens usually birthed normal, over-the-top beautiful, and intelligent babies.

The stillbirths is high in the family, but then it is also high with others.  There is also a very good chance that the maesters were murdering those babies.  Stillbirths were common, even Lyanna's baby might have died from stillbirth.  It's a blessing for the less affluent, less mouths to feed.  It's just that no one pays any attention when lesser people suffer them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think part of it could be that Valyrians may have their characteristic hair and eye color because of selective breeding, and that is one of the genetic defects from their eugenic practices.

Similar to how some dog breeds are more prone to certain issues with their limbs or eye sight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To set up this...

So there's that little box about the Mountain Clans in the Vale, TWOIAF that says the Burned Men were spun off the painted dogs when they were enthralled by a fire a witch with a dragon. I read Alys into this when I first read it but the more likely candidate was Nettles since the fire witch commanded a dragon, but that would muck up my theory on Brown Ben, and I think Alys is a better candidate. So...

What if the dragon wasn't a dragon like Sheepstealer but the child of Aemond One-Eye?!? And what if Timmet (who has one eye) is not only the true heir to the Vale (as we all know is true, right?), but also a descendant ol' One-Eye?!?

Dude's gonna ride Viserion after Brown Ben gets whacked. I will bet half a groat. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 4:25 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

To set up this...

So there's that little box about the Mountain Clans in the Vale, TWOIAF that says the Burned Men were spun off the painted dogs when they were enthralled by a fire a witch with a dragon. I read Alys into this when I first read it but the more likely candidate was Nettles since the fire witch commanded a dragon, but that would muck up my theory on Brown Ben, and I think Alys is a better candidate. So...

What if the dragon wasn't a dragon like Sheepstealer but the child of Aemond One-Eye?!? And what if Timmet (who has one eye) is not only the true heir to the Vale (as we all know is true, right?), but also a descendant ol' One-Eye?!?

Dude's gonna ride Viserion after Brown Ben gets whacked. I will bet half a groat. 

 

I love Brown Bennett theories I actually believe he is a true born defendant from the Plumm's and Black Pearl but time will tell.

I see the demon still births as our true hint to Tyrion Targaryen. If Tyrion had never lived he would have been remembered the same as one of these demon's and even if it's not a hint at him being Targaryen it points to uneducated thinking in that world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/04/2017 at 6:39 PM, Orphalesion said:

 

It's easy to see a rumour start like that: a random Targ Queen gives birth to a stillborn infant. One of the midwives present later goes to the tavern and, in order to get attention from others, makes up a story about a severely deformed deagonspawn baby, form there it passes to a singer and he makes a son about it. 

Rumour and propaganda were extremely strong in earlier ages, that's how Richard III became a hunchback and Anne Boleyn got her sixth finger. Stuff like that still happens today, but mostly in fringe groups.

 

Exactly. Especially when it comes to a character like Maegor. It's far easy to explain that he was inhumanly evil and his spawn were monsters, than to actually admit he was just a bad person.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Targaryens/Valyrians are affiliated with dragons by blood, they can second life a dragon by sacrificing their child (and themselves obviously). The birth complications and deformities seem to be a by-product of this blood ability. Possibly when they do second life a dragon the dragon's soul and child's swap bodies and the physical child takes on some physical dragon traits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

"When the babe at last came forth, she proved indeed a monster: a stillborn girl, twisted and malformed, with a hole in her chest where her heart should have been and a stubby, scaled tail. The dead girl had been named Visenya, Princess Rhaenyra announced the next day.."

-"The Princess and the Queen "

Dangerous Women

Quote

Elinor was summone

Quote

 

d to wed Maegor. She, too, became pregnant, and like Alys before her, she gave birth to a stillborn abomination said to have been born eyeless and with small wings.

-Woiaf, Maegor 

Quote

When the babe at last came forth, she proved indeed a monster: a stillborn girl, twisted and malformed, with a hole in her chest where her heart should have been...

Woiaf, Aegon II

Quote

. “Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small, leather wings like the wings of a bat..."

-Mirri Maz Duur

-AGOT, Dany9/ch68

Just a few examples that they're not typical stillbirths... And personally even just 3 still born babies in all different parts of the entire series, where the babes have dragon like qualitie stands out to me. I don't believe it'll be a future plot point in TWOW or ADOS, maybe in one of the future Targ history books WOIAF type of books...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/11/2017 at 9:26 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

"Numerous" is an exaggeration for the monstrous part.  "Monstrosity" is a loosely used term.  After all, Tyrion could be described as "monstrous".  As far as the other families, well, think on it.  What other family is constantly in the limelight as the Targaryens?  No other family.   This whole saga of A Song of Ice....

The stillbirths is high in the family, but then it is also high with others.  There is also a very good chance that the maesters were murdering those babies.  Stillbirths were common, even Lyanna's baby might have died from stillbirth.  It's a blessing for the less affluent, less mouths to feed.  It's just that no one pays any attention when lesser people suffer them. 

I posted a few quotes but sent them before copying your response... It should be just above. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/12/2017 at 3:25 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

To set up this...

So there's that little box about the Mountain Clans in the Vale, TWOIAF that says the Burned Men were spun off the painted dogs when they were enthralled by a fire a witch with a dragon. I read Alys into this when I first read it but the more likely candidate was Nettles since the fire witch commanded a dragon, but that would muck up my theory on Brown Ben, and I think Alys is a better candidate. So...

What if the dragon wasn't a dragon like Sheepstealer but the child of Aemond One-Eye?!? And what if Timmet (who has one eye) is not only the true heir to the Vale (as we all know is true, right?), but also a descendant ol' One-Eye?!?

Dude's gonna ride Viserion after Brown Ben gets whacked. I will bet half a groat. 

I always really liked that theorues about the Vale mountain clans.. There's also one where they kidnapped a Lady of House Arryn ( I think one who was close descendant from the time when they had married a Targ)

Sorry to be so vague but there's some real cool theories about it also relating to Time on..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...