Jump to content

How did Dany's death by childbirth theory started?


khal drogon

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I'll admit to being a bit of a 'Dany-hater' LOL (even though delving into her archetype has loads to teach us about a Lightbringer forging), just as I'm a bit of an 'A+J=T hater' (even though I've recently defended that theory in a long post centred around the word 'coiling' in the latest version of the eponymous thread, ha ha).  I suppose you could call me an open-minded 'hater'.  :P

GRRM coddles that character ('Dany') way too much.  She never seems to face a painful moral dilemma.  Frankly, I find her dragons far more compelling than Dany herself, which is why I expect Bran, who is infinitely more interesting, being more than one-dimensional, and one of GRRM's main alter egos, to take over the 'reigns' of a wighted Drogon after Dany's untimely death.  Judging from the curious idealization, I surmise she represents an attractive woman the author used to fantasize about in high school, maybe even someone with whom he had an actual though estranged relationship, which ended up sorely disappointing him, when she rejected him for another.  If and/or when he finally works up the courage to walk her through the 'red door,' I'll wager it'll be hugely cathartic, most of all for GRRM himself! 

I don't respect anyone who says Dany doesn't face any moral dilemma :joke. A character who fears about her own sanity and who treads the line between a self righteous violent person and a compassionate queen. She is much much complex and unique character. No wonder Martin loves to put more effort on her character. For true dilemmas wait till she get to Westeros. She is any day better than Jon Snow.

Anyway I love the idea of red door symbolising death. All her life she is running towards the red door which symbolizes her ideal life, the normal life she never had. Then she was thrust into the position of a conqueror to reclaim what is lost to her family. It's like in her dreams in AGOT where she was running towards the red door until she becomes a dragon then she flew. Her red door quest stopped the moment she became a dragon. In a sense that may mean she will never reach the red door. But maybe she will get the red door, a simple life with a family of her own which is the happiest ending I am hoping for her. But knowing how cruel Martin could be the red door could well mean death and the idea of a normal life is a mirage and only death could reunite her with her family which is sad.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I really dislike the use of the word hater. It's almost exclusively used in a derogatory fashion in order to belittle anyone who holds a differing opinion.

Not really. Its usually used to describe a style of writing and a point of view where who you like and apparently more importantly, who you hate is your whole approach to literature.

Re Dany, I also thought that the reading of Mirri's prophecy laid out by Lady B was a possibility. However, within the timing of the events of the sun rising in the east and setting in the west, and the sea running dry etc, she has in fact had a miscarriage, which is a bit confounding. Sometimes it makes me think that Dany may be the only character in the book who, due to some innate Targness, actually confounds prophecies - she alters what would have happened.

My basic feeling is that in the tent, she exchanged motherhood of her own children for being Mother of Dragons and mother to freed slaves, and that this won't change.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east: the death of Quentyn Martell (happened)

When the seas go dry:  Dothraki sea going dry because of winter coming (happened)

and mountains blow in the wind like leaves: pyramids of Meereen going down.

When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child.Then he will return, and not before: The only way for her to meet Drogo again is to die. Mirri's words mean that she will not die before giving birth to a living child.  If that happens right after the birth or some years later is not mentioned

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Looking back over the relevant posts, I think you introduced the door/gate discussion in general (I love your 'Har' = hinge catch, btw!); following which @LmL connected your great insights to the weirwood -- so I guess the 'weirwood portal' specifically is actually LmL's idea; sorry dragon :):

 

 

Not really color-coded, but there's that weird symbolism which stands out in the House of the Undying, with the instruction to Dany to 'always take the door immediately to your right'.  What do you think that's about?

@Unchained offered this delightful interpretation of Lann's infiltration of the Rock via a 'secret door', which links back again with sexuality:

 

Exactly; it was something I came to with the help of @cgrav's insights about Tormund, and of course many people have been exploring the connection between weirwoods and doors and portals in general. And of course all of it stands on the back of your 'Under the see' thing, which is so fundamental of a connection it is now impossible to separate it from other ideas. So, #teamwork. I think a couple of other people were throwing around ideas on that thread as well that relate. It's definitely not an idea I would have had on my own. 

Ah, so, what's this OP about? I need to reread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, LmL said:

Exactly; it was something I came to with the help of @cgrav's insights about Tormund, and of course many people have been exploring the connection between weirwoods and doors and portals in general. And of course all of it stands on the back of your 'Under the see' thing, which is so fundamental of a connection it is now impossible to separate it from other ideas. So, #teamwork. I think a couple of other people were throwing around ideas on that thread as well that relate. It's definitely not an idea I would have had on my own. 

Ah, so, what's this OP about? I need to reread.

Oh, just some 'Dany-haters' shooting the breeze...and plotting her death via 'red door [painted black, ha ha]'..!  :devil:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east: the death of Quentyn Martell (happened)

When the seas go dry:  Dothraki sea going dry because of winter coming (happened)

and mountains blow in the wind like leaves: pyramids of Meereen going down.

When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child.Then he will return, and not before: The only way for her to meet Drogo again is to die. Mirri's words mean that she will not die before giving birth to a living child.  If that happens right after the birth or some years later is not mentioned

Honestly I always just interpreted all of this to basically mean never. It's her cryptic way of saying she will never see Drogo again. 

However, it is interesting that almost all of these unlikely scenarios can be interpreted as having happened. I never even thought about Quentyn being the sun that sets in the east. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Honestly I always just interpreted all of this to basically mean never. It's her cryptic way of saying she will never see Drogo again. 

However, it is interesting that almost all of these unlikely scenarios can be interpreted as having happened. I never even thought about Quentyn being the sun that sets in the east. 

Yes, from MMD's perspective it's totally a wordy way of saying never. But the possibility of it being an accidental prophecy is certainly one that's fun to contemplate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The notion that the mother has to die to give birth to dragons is built into the metaphor structure of the Azor Ahai and Qartheen moon myths. There was no way Danny was going to give birth to Rhaego the SWMW without dying,but since his sacrifice among with Drogos allowed get to hatch the dragons, that all flipped. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/11/2017 at 0:32 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I can tell you how I came to the conclusion that it's a possibility.

We have to remember that characters speak based on their own experiences and knowledge. From what Mirri Maz Duur knows of the Dothraki, she expects Daenerys to be dragged to Vaes Dotrhak and dumped with the Dosh Khaleen. The Dosh Khaleen so far as we know do not remarry, which means Dany would have no chance for her womb to quicken and bear a living child. The whole thing from MMD's perspective was an elaborate, and quite mean, way of saying "never" in answer to Dany's question about when she'd get Drogo back.

But...since that happened we've seen things MMD said actually happen. The sun (Quentyn Martell) rose in the west (Westeros) and set (died) in the east (Essos). The (Dothraki) sea has gone dry. The mountains crumbling, or whatever the exact wording was could refer to the pyramids in Meereen. 

Based on that it's logical to think that Dany will in fact be reunited with Drogo when she bears a living child. But to be reunited with him means her death, because there's no way he's coming back. That means she dies in childbirth, or shortly after.

Add to that her mother's history of childbearing and own death shortly after Dany's birth, and it makes the whole thing really possible. Not a given by any means, but certainly something that could happen and fit with the text we have.

It's not really logical.  It's a giant leap to get from what Mirri said to what you're concluding.  Dany's decision to end Drogo's suffering and burn his remains is a crossroads in her life.  Dany made a decision to go forward and embrace her dragon destiny.  Mercy killing Drogo and burning his body ended any chances of any reunion in both life and death.  She made a choice to leave Drogo behind and go ahead with her mission to take back the kingdom that belonged to her family.

The female most closely like Dany is Rhaenyra.  They both gave birth to human-dragon hybrids.  Rhaenyra survived just fine.  There is really no reason whatsoever to expect Dany to die while giving birth. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Princess Daenerys said:

It's not really logical.  It's a giant leap to get from what Mirri said to what you're concluding.  Dany's decision to end Drogo's suffering and burn his remains is a crossroads in her life.  Dany made a decision to go forward and embrace her dragon destiny.  Mercy killing Drogo and burning his body ended any chances of any reunion in both life and death.  She made a choice to leave Drogo behind and go ahead with her mission to take back the kingdom that belonged to her family.

The female most closely like Dany is Rhaenyra.  They both gave birth to human-dragon hybrids.  Rhaenyra survived just fine.  There is really no reason whatsoever to expect Dany to die while giving birth. 

The evidence is primarily thematic and symbolic. There is an overarching theme of death, rebirth, and life/death balance that play out symbolically in the story and in each main character's plot. Each of the primary POVs (Jon, Tyrion, Dany) passed through death on their way into life, by way of their mothers' deaths. Each has undergone a series of symbolic passages through classic Greek-style death/underworld settings, with Jon actually being killed. Jon's murder shows that the story is advancing past mere symbolic representation of very dear personal sacrifice in order for the characters to move forward. 

@Durran Durrandon makes a succinct but strong point - the myths that provide the symbolic background for the story and characters are fundamentally about life coming from death. The Qartheen moon/dragon and Azor Ahai myths are one in the same: the source of life and warmth itself was destroyed in the process of reproduction. It's a symbolic story of the seasons drawn from real world myths that revolve around the idea of winter and summer being competing forces. Winter is the death of summer, and summer is the death of winter (or the rebirth of itself). On Planetos this balance has been disrupted, and it's expected that some massive sacrifice will be required to restore it. This theme permeates the background mythology discussed above, and works its way into the character archetypes, individual plots, and even the logistics of individual scenes in a great many chapters. Knowing that these characters conform to age old mythological and literary archetypes in the real world, we have every reason to believe that they are strongly proscriptive and tell us not just about who the characters are, but how their story arcs will turn out. As much as we love our main characters (except Dany apparently), everything in the relevant mythology and literature suggests that "only death can pay for life". And well, only one of the primary POV characters where fertility is a plot conflict.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Princess Daenerys said:

It's not really logical.  It's a giant leap to get from what Mirri said to what you're concluding.  Dany's decision to end Drogo's suffering and burn his remains is a crossroads in her life.  Dany made a decision to go forward and embrace her dragon destiny.  Mercy killing Drogo and burning his body ended any chances of any reunion in both life and death.  She made a choice to leave Drogo behind and go ahead with her mission to take back the kingdom that belonged to her family.

The female most closely like Dany is Rhaenyra.  They both gave birth to human-dragon hybrids.  Rhaenyra survived just fine.  There is really no reason whatsoever to expect Dany to die while giving birth. 

BBM-I hope you're right.  'Cause I'm really hoping that ignorant cow will get bitch slapped right off her dragon and into the heart of Dragonmont, dying in a fashion similar to Smeagol.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/12/2017 at 9:51 AM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

When I first joined this forum years ago, there were a lot more dany and jon hating threads than there are now.  By hating threads I mean jiberish intended simply to bash a character, not really related to the text.  Seriously, posters came up with ridiculous stuff, like MMD being responsible for the dragons,(which I disproved) so I have always assumed the theories were originally started by Dany haters. I actually didn't like her character when I joined but the irrational bullshit people posted about her made me defend her and come to like her.

That being said,  GRRM has said there will be a bittersweat ending, and Dany dying in childbirth would certainly qualify.  Also, Lady Blizzardborn raises a valid point.

Well pretty much what aryagonnakill has said here. .

 

and I think I can do one better than he/she because I belive actually can  name the one who came up with this one ..its someone named Paper Weaver aka Mithras ..a known hater of dany and can't stop creating a thread about dany twice a day .

The theory as it goes dany will be pregnant with Tyrion's child and will die giving birth so that will result in Drogon going to jon and he rides them to fight WW..

And if anyone has a problem with the word hater ...I think they don't know what exactly are they talking about ..

Of course there had been theories about dany dying ..one popular point used as you can see is MMD's words ( which was never about dany joining drogo but about when will drogo be like he was )and then there is red door and there is of course her being a candidate of how she will be nissa nisaa to jon ..

But dying by childbirth started specifically started from him or he spread that ...that's how this became famous..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/13/2017 at 8:05 AM, khal drogon said:

I don't respect anyone who says Dany doesn't face any moral dilemma :joke. A character who fears about her own sanity and who treads the line between a self righteous violent person and a compassionate queen. She is much much complex and unique character. No wonder Martin loves to put more effort on her character. For true dilemmas wait till she get to Westeros. She is any day better than Jon Snow.

Anyway I love the idea of red door symbolising death. All her life she is running towards the red door which symbolizes her ideal life, the normal life she never had. Then she was thrust into the position of a conqueror to reclaim what is lost to her family. It's like in her dreams in AGOT where she was running towards the red door until she becomes a dragon then she flew. Her red door quest stopped the moment she became a dragon. In a sense that may mean she will never reach the red door. But maybe she will get the red door, a simple life with a family of her own which is the happiest ending I am hoping for her. But knowing how cruel Martin could be the red door could well mean death and the idea of a normal life is a mirage and only death could reunite her with her family which is sad.

 

Exactly ..In fact I would dare anyone to find a character who is always has to choose less worse from the two worst choices available or some times come up with a third alternative..she faces more situations where she will be damned for doing or not doing it .

The story like GRRm writes about human heart in conflict ..we can see that in every dany's chapter as we see with other characters..

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Daenarys targaryan said:

and I think I can do one better than he/she because I belive actually can  name the one who came up with this one ..its someone named Paper Weaver aka Mithras ..a known hater of dany and can't stop creating a thread about dany twice a day .

I'm not sure if I am giggling over the phrase "a known hater of dany" or because I remember being annoyed by Mithras hating on Dany. MY heart is in conflict, amused, but in conflict.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Durran Durrandon said:

I'm not sure if I am giggling over the phrase "a known hater of dany" or because I remember being annoyed by Mithras hating on Dany. MY heart is in conflict, amused, but in conflict.

Now that you have mentioned it ..I can't stop giggling either.. How can people hate a fictional character so much ..

 

PS ..I don't know what exactly happened I just noticed the post you quoted and it had a different user name .it seems instead of signing in I ended up creating new one ..

It was I who made those two comments

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Princess Daenerys said:

It's not really logical.  It's a giant leap to get from what Mirri said to what you're concluding.  Dany's decision to end Drogo's suffering and burn his remains is a crossroads in her life.  Dany made a decision to go forward and embrace her dragon destiny.  Mercy killing Drogo and burning his body ended any chances of any reunion in both life and death.  She made a choice to leave Drogo behind and go ahead with her mission to take back the kingdom that belonged to her family.

The female most closely like Dany is Rhaenyra.  They both gave birth to human-dragon hybrids.  Rhaenyra survived just fine.  There is really no reason whatsoever to expect Dany to die while giving birth. 

How do you figure that it ends any chance of reunion in death? Drogo remains dead. If Dany dies too, and they meet in an afterlife, there's a reunion in death.

No. The only things Dany has in common with Rhaenyra are the human-dragon hybrids, Targ blood, and being dragonriding women with claims to the throne, none of which things are exclusive to the two of them. Dany's temperament and character are nothing like Rhaenyra's. Her situation is likewise entirely different.

Rhaenyra's surviving Visenya's birth more than 100 years and many generations ago has no bearing on how well Dany would come through childbirth. Dany's own mother survived several pregnancies and births "just fine" until Dany's. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...