How did Dany's death by childbirth theory started?

[khal drogon]

What are it's strongest hints? Has there been any real foreshadowing for this to happen? If not why this seems to be a popular theory? 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I can tell you how I came to the conclusion that it's a possibility.

We have to remember that characters speak based on their own experiences and knowledge. From what Mirri Maz Duur knows of the Dothraki, she expects Daenerys to be dragged to Vaes Dotrhak and dumped with the Dosh Khaleen. The Dosh Khaleen so far as we know do not remarry, which means Dany would have no chance for her womb to quicken and bear a living child. The whole thing from MMD's perspective was an elaborate, and quite mean, way of saying "never" in answer to Dany's question about when she'd get Drogo back.

But...since that happened we've seen things MMD said actually happen. The sun (Quentyn Martell) rose in the west (Westeros) and set (died) in the east (Essos). The (Dothraki) sea has gone dry. The mountains crumbling, or whatever the exact wording was could refer to the pyramids in Meereen. 

Based on that it's logical to think that Dany will in fact be reunited with Drogo when she bears a living child. But to be reunited with him means her death, because there's no way he's coming back. That means she dies in childbirth, or shortly after.

Add to that her mother's history of childbearing and own death shortly after Dany's birth, and it makes the whole thing really possible. Not a given by any means, but certainly something that could happen and fit with the text we have.

[khal drogon]

34 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I can tell you how I came to the conclusion that it's a possibility.

We have to remember that characters speak based on their own experiences and knowledge. From what Mirri Maz Duur knows of the Dothraki, she expects Daenerys to be dragged to Vaes Dotrhak and dumped with the Dosh Khaleen. The Dosh Khaleen so far as we know do not remarry, which means Dany would have no chance for her womb to quicken and bear a living child. The whole thing from MMD's perspective was an elaborate, and quite mean, way of saying "never" in answer to Dany's question about when she'd get Drogo back.

But...since that happened we've seen things MMD said actually happen. The sun (Quentyn Martell) rose in the west (Westeros) and set (died) in the east (Essos). The (Dothraki) sea has gone dry. The mountains crumbling, or whatever the exact wording was could refer to the pyramids in Meereen. 

Based on that it's logical to think that Dany will in fact be reunited with Drogo when she bears a living child. But to be reunited with him means her death, because there's no way he's coming back. That means she dies in childbirth, or shortly after.

Add to that her mother's history of childbearing and own death shortly after Dany's birth, and it makes the whole thing really possible. Not a given by any means, but certainly something that could happen and fit with the text we have.

I could understand that is the starting point. Are there any other hints? Those are what I am looking for.

Mirri saying "never" is what I took from it too unless this idea has other hints. Mirri talks specifically about "Drogo's return" which is never going to happen as the other things. It is not the same as her reuniting with him. If Dany dies too it still doesn't mean Drogo had returned.

Yes but her mother had bore multiple children before she died of childbirth and it happened when she was physically weak and it happened during traumatic time. Are there any hints that Dany might be physically weak enough to die of childbirth? 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

No particular other hints that I recall. Like I said, its not a given, but based on what GRRM does with the text and prophecies--even accidental ones--this interpretation is consistent with the range of possible outcomes for Dany.

There are plenty or real-life stories of people dying and seeing dead loved ones come to take them "home" to whatever afterlife they believe in. Thus Dany may see Drogo "return" for her, and take her to the night lands in the sky, per Dothraki legend.

What indicates that Rhaella was "physically weak" when Dany was born?

It's unlikely that any childbirth Dany experiences in the last two books wouldn't be at a time of trauma. She has to re-take Westeros, fight Aegon and/or Euron, fight the Others, piece the kingdom back together. All in probably less than a year. Arguably she'll be under more stress than her mother was.

It's not necessary for a woman to be physically weak to die in childbirth. Healthy women do die giving birth, even in the 21st century. It's become much less common due to modern medicine (which they don't have in Westeros) but it does still happen. I almost died giving birth to my oldest and I was in great shape at the time.

 

[Lord Lannister]

8 hours ago, khal drogon said:

I could understand that is the starting point. Are there any other hints? Those are what I am looking for.

Look at three "main" characters of the series, Jon, Dany and Tyrion. They all share the trait of their mother dying giving birth to them.

[aryagonnakill#2]

When I first joined this forum years ago, there were a lot more dany and jon hating threads than there are now.  By hating threads I mean jiberish intended simply to bash a character, not really related to the text.  Seriously, posters came up with ridiculous stuff, like MMD being responsible for the dragons,(which I disproved) so I have always assumed the theories were originally started by Dany haters. I actually didn't like her character when I joined but the irrational bullshit people posted about her made me defend her and come to like her.

That being said,  GRRM has said there will be a bittersweat ending, and Dany dying in childbirth would certainly qualify.  Also, Lady Blizzardborn raises a valid point.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Birthing children is messy and dangerous business in this universe. I wonder what the %  of mothers dying after childbirth is in Westeros. 

[ravenous reader]

In effect, Dany killed her first child (moreover, I believe this is the 'treason for blood' of her own prophecy).  He was kicking vigorously like a normal, healthy baby at the time when Drogo fell from his saddle; then Dany made a bargain with the devil for which Rhaego paid the price.

It would make a certain sense -- from a poignant 'symmetry' perspective -- for Dany instead to give her life for her child the second time around.  

(I also think it's safe to say that Dany will have a child in future, given that GRRM reminds us all the time that this will never happen!  )

In general, there is a theme running through the novels of sacrificing others for oneself (e.g. Viserys, Rhaego and Drogo, as well as Mirri, being sacrificed for Dany and her dragons) vs. sacrificing oneself for others, which I expect Dany also to follow in her character development.

The 'red door' she has to open represents her own death.  Similarly, the red mouths of the weirwoods represent doors into the trees, secured by sacrifice, for those 'going into' or 'being taken up by' the trees -- a euphemism for death.  

[cgrav]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 

The 'red door' she has to open represents her own death.  Similarly, the red mouths of the weirwoods represent doors into the trees, secured by sacrifice, for those 'going into' or 'being taken up by' the trees -- a euphemism for death.  

Since she thinks of it as a memory, it could also represent a subconscious memory of her own birth, as well as a premonition of her death. The red door being her mother's birth canal, like Lyanna's bloody bed.

The birth/death duality is pretty heavy all over the place, so I'd believe that the Red Door goes both ways.

taking it further, is Melisandre a "red door" when she gives birth to shadows? Or maybe a black door (gate?) since her blood is burnt?

[ravenous reader]

5 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Since she thinks of it as a memory, it could also represent a subconscious memory of her own birth, as well as a premonition of her death. The red door being her mother's birth canal, like Lyanna's bloody bed.

I agree.  Think of Bran going through the white black gate which is a giant mouth stretching to admit him, which I've speculated can also be conceptualised as a vagina or cervix.  Going through that door represents a death, (re)birth, and 'undeath' all in one.

@Pain killer Jane  also posted this once in conjunction with my exploration into potential poetic/song allusions:

Quote

Paint It Black

The Rolling Stones

I see a red door and I want it painted black
No colours anymore, I want them to turn black
I see the girls walk by dressed in their summer clothes
I have to turn my head until my darkness goes

I see a line of cars and they're all painted black
With flowers and my love, both never to come back
I see people turn their heads and quickly look away
Like a newborn baby, it just happens everyday

I look inside myself and see my heart is black
I see my red door and must have it painted black
Maybe then I'll fade away and not have to face the facts
It's not easy facing up when your whole world is black

No more will my green sea go turn a deeper blue
I could not foresee this thing happening to you

If I look hard enough into the setting sun
My love will laugh with me before the morning comes

I see a red door and I want it painted black
No colours anymore, I want them to turn black
I see the girls walk by dressed in their summer clothes
I have to turn my head until my darkness goes

I wanna see it painted, painted black
Black as night, black as coal
I wanna see the sun blotted out from the sky
I wanna see it painted, painted, painted, painted black
Yeah

Songwriters: Keith Richards / Mick Jaggers

Quite a dark vision.  Do any of you think the song might have a bearing on Dany's 'red door'?

[ravenous reader]

16 minutes ago, cgrav said:

taking it further, is Melisandre a "red door" when she gives birth to shadows? Or maybe a black door (gate?) since her blood is burnt?

It ties in nicely with your 'weirwood portal' idea.  It is your idea originally, isn't it cgrav? (although @LmL has run with it)

I think the 'Black Gate', its white color notwithstanding, is called 'black' due to the 'black blood magic' it entails.

As Pycelle tells Cersei, some doors shouldn't be opened:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei VIII

"No. There is no need to involve that . . . to involve Qyburn. Dreamless sleep. You shall have your potion."

"Good. You may go." As he turned toward the door, though, she called him back. "One more thing. What does the Citadel teach concerning prophecy? Can our morrows be foretold?"

The old man hesitated. One wrinkled hand groped blindly at his chest, as if to stroke the beard that was not there. "Can our morrows be foretold?" he repeated slowly. "Mayhaps. There are certain spells in the old books . . . but Your Grace might ask instead, 'Should our morrows be foretold?' And to that I should answer, 'No.' Some doors are best left closed."

"See that you close mine as you leave." She should have known that he would give her an answer as useless as he was.

 

[cgrav]

41 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

It ties in nicely with your 'weirwood portal' idea.  It is your idea originally, isn't it cgrav? (although @LmL has run with it)

 

 Could be? Ha! I'd have to reread the old threads. But yeah, these doors and gates that open with some calumny (screaming hinges) represent passages in/out of the various nether worlds of Ice and Fire. Our special characters get free passage, while others (and Others) only get to go one way.

of course the obvious door to death is the Moon Door. Lines up perfectly with the "blue calling" discussion.

We cal also now look for door symbolism by color. Dany dreams of death/birth in fire... The white Black Gate is death/birth by ice... moon door is an inverse for drowning (I can't recall any special doors on Pyke)... and then there's the Black and White door***... what else?

 

*** though I suspect the HoBW is meant to be a fully deconstructed presentation of all mythology, so I don't think there's much decoding to do in that particular setting.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Adding a bit to ravenous reader and cgrav's convo here, or really just rearranging some of the words...the words "only death can pay for life" run rather more heavily through Dany's arc than the rest of the series. Jon has an equivalent in a way with "kill the boy and let the man be born" but that's the closest anyone else comes (that I recall at the moment in my undercaffeineated state) to the outright statements in Dany's storyline.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I have a theory here, but I would say it starts with MMD telling her she will see Drogo after she bears a living child. 

[Lord Lannister]

15 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

 started by Dany haters.

I really dislike the use of the word hater. It's almost exclusively used in a derogatory fashion in order to belittle anyone who holds a differing opinion.

[aryagonnakill#2]

36 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I really dislike the use of the word hater. It's almost exclusively used in a derogatory fashion in order to belittle anyone who holds a differing opinion.

If you are going to invent ridiculous things about someone, try to take away their accomplishments, or spend time writing essays about how stupid a fictional character is because you dislike them, that is my definition of a hater, and it certainly applies to people on these forums, tho as I said it use to be a lot worse, there use to be at least 1 Dany and 1 Jon bashing thread at all times.

 

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, cgrav said:

 Could be? Ha! I'd have to reread the old threads. But yeah, these doors and gates that open with some calumny (screaming hinges) represent passages in/out of the various nether worlds of Ice and Fire. Our special characters get free passage, while others (and Others) only get to go one way.

Looking back over the relevant posts, I think you introduced the door/gate discussion in general (I love your 'Har' = hinge catch, btw!); following which @LmL connected your great insights to the weirwood -- so I guess the 'weirwood portal' specifically is actually LmL's idea; sorry dragon :

On 3/11/2017 at 6:42 PM, cgrav said:

And then I just found this little tidbit... Doing a text search, it's easy to see that Tormund has a catchphrase "Har!", so I checked on the etymology. It's an old germanic/norse root for "hinge"!  https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/har

So we have a guy called Gate's Mouth who says Hinge a lot, and he brokers a deal with Jon to "open the gate". Add to that Mance's saying that Tormund would blow the horn, and GRRM was really laying on the foreshadowing of Tormund's getting through.

I think this might be part of the "hinges of the world" thing that Mel says and the repeated phrase "hinges screamed" in several places. It's a hinge of the world because the gate - the Wall or the Black Gate - is holding back a terrible force, and the hinges are screaming because the gate is being opened and allowing the terror to pass for the first time in generations. Makes sense looking at Damphair's chapters, too, where he thinks about hinges screaming and then Euron shows up with a possible dragonbinder horn.


edit: and while we're chatting Tormund, what's with his title "Breaker of Ice"? Is that also a reference to 'breaking down the wall' by obtaining passage south?

 

On 3/11/2017 at 6:55 PM, LmL said:

Good work here. Nissa Nissa can be a weirwood, and when the dragon put his fiery seed into Nissa Nissa, when Azor Ahai went into the weirwood net, this was akin to opening the weirwood door and entering the see. NN's scream is obviously very important, so it all makes sense to me. The screaming hinge is actually NN's scream.

That's also why tormund is called Icebreaker and hornblower as well as having all of this opening door symbolism. The horn is analogous to the scream that broke the moon, and I think the horn will be needed to cause the next moon disaster which will break the wall. Which means you've just given me more evidence to support my one super large prediction for the end of the books, and that means you've giving me a nice present indeed, and here on my birthday too.

p.s. if we do get another meteor strike, I promise I will not be totally insufferable. Well, give me like a few weeks. Okay, nevermind, I'm not making any promises. If we get moon meteors... will I don't even know how I'll be able to handle it. 

 

Quote

of course the obvious door to death is the Moon Door. Lines up perfectly with the "blue calling" discussion.

We cal also now look for door symbolism by color. Dany dreams of death/birth in fire... The white Black Gate is death/birth by ice... moon door is an inverse for drowning (I can't recall any special doors on Pyke)... and then there's the Black and White door***... what else?

Not really color-coded, but there's that weird symbolism which stands out in the House of the Undying, with the instruction to Dany to 'always take the door immediately to your right'.  What do you think that's about?

@Unchained offered this delightful interpretation of Lann's infiltration of the Rock via a 'secret door', which links back again with sexuality:

On 3/12/2017 at 10:03 PM, Unchained said:

 

I think there is definitely some trickster who destroyed the moon and corrupted the WWnet stuff going on with Lann.  

Books are symbol of weirwoods being made of trees and storing knowledge.  It looks like Lann may have tricked the trees or greenseers from this quote.

 

I could not decide if the Rock was a symbol of the fire moon or the WWnet.  Now that it has been established that the trees were transformed when the moon was destroyed, it can be a little of both and makes more sense.  

Lann found a secret way into the Rock.  It was probably not a method that was without causing destruction.  He whispered from the darkness, howling like a demon, sounds like a greenseer or an impersonator of one.  He stole treasures and turned brother against brother which I think is exactly what you are getting at.  I wonder what treasures those were.  He filled the Rock with vermin which sounds like he corrupted the fire moon/WWnet driving out the original inhabitants.  Smuggling in a pride of lions sounds like letting the sun's fire into the fire moon/WWnet which is something that happened right?  They ate the men and he claimed the women which given that Nissa Nissa was a weirwood person sounds agian like he killed or ran out the children's souls in the trees and claimed the WWnet for himself.  Lann impregnating the women without them knowing while they slept is interesting.  I have no idea what that means, but maybe greenseers can create a new sort of people in a way.  Impregnating the lord's daughter is another way of saying the same thing as above.  

 

Also, he used the sun to brighten his hair/heir.  AA reborn had the sun's energy in him.         

 

[Lord Lannister]

42 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

If you are going to invent ridiculous things about someone, try to take away their accomplishments, or spend time writing essays about how stupid a fictional character is because you dislike them, that is my definition of a hater, and it certainly applies to people on these forums, tho as I said it use to be a lot worse, there use to be at least 1 Dany and 1 Jon bashing thread at all times.

 

You're the one who brought the subject of "haters" up. One wonders why you feel the need when this had been a rather benign and civil thread so far. To me the usage of that word, and it's broad negative categorization, is as bad as the very subject you feel the need to attack.

[aryagonnakill#2]

33 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

You're the one who brought the subject of "haters" up. One wonders why you feel the need when this had been a rather benign and civil thread so far. To me the usage of that word, and it's broad negative categorization, is as bad as the very subject you feel the need to attack.

... Ya I know I brought it up I don't see what your point is, or why you even commented on my post to begin with.  If you don't like the word then don't use it, I'll use whatever words I want, if hater applies, then I will use that word.

[ravenous reader]

I'll admit to being a bit of a 'Dany-hater' LOL (even though delving into her archetype has loads to teach us about a Lightbringer forging), just as I'm a bit of an 'A+J=T hater' (even though I've recently defended that theory in a long post centred around the word 'coiling' in the latest version of the eponymous thread, ha ha).  I suppose you could call me an open-minded 'hater'.  

GRRM coddles that character ('Dany') way too much.  She never seems to face a painful moral dilemma.  Frankly, I find her dragons far more compelling than Dany herself, which is why I expect Bran, who is infinitely more interesting, being more than one-dimensional, and one of GRRM's main alter egos, to take over the 'reins' of a wighted Drogon after Dany's untimely death.  Judging from the curious idealization, I surmise she represents an attractive woman the author used to fantasize about in high school, maybe even someone with whom he had an actual though estranged relationship, which ended up sorely disappointing him, when she rejected him for another.  If and/or when he finally works up the courage to walk her through the 'red door,' I'll wager it'll be hugely cathartic, most of all for GRRM himself!