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Overbooking, Flightcrew over paying passengers, the United incident


Ser Scot A Ellison

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6 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Who cares?  Unless it's directly related to what led him being dragged off the plane, it has fuck all to do with anything.  This is the same type of shit that encourages people to minimize murders because they can say "see!  he had a criminal record so he probably deserved it!" even if neither thing is related.  You're better than this.

Agreed.  But it will still be a big part of the narrative around this, unfortunately.

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4 minutes ago, MisterOJ said:

The guy is in the best of lights, a drug dealer and at worst, a rapist. When I first saw the videos, I first had outrage against the company and individuals involved and sympathy for the man who was dragged off. And while I still am outraged at the actions of the company and those working on its behalf, if I'm being honest, I feel less sympathy for Dao.

OK. But this isn't an 'interesting wrinkle', surely? An interesting wrinkle means it's relevant to the situation. If the guy had been behaving badly at the time, it would be relevant: as it is, even if everything reported in those links is true, all it means is that the same thing could have happened to you, me, or the most morally upstanding person on Earth. 

4 minutes ago, Fez said:

The problem with getting rid of overbooking is that it'll result in customers either facing much larger penalties for cancelling flights or significantly more expensive flights; and I'm not sure either trade-off there is worth it. Overbooking exists because lots of people end up cancelling flights, but those planes need to be a certain percent full to be operating at a profit.

Serious question: do first class seats get overbooked?

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Agreed that I think the solution is better compensation. I'd also add that when booking a flight, you also get sold a booking order. If you buy a ticket once it's been fully booked, you get told that and understand you're essentially on a stand-by list, but entitled to compensation if it does become overbooked.

The first thing I did when I heard this story was read up on the practice of overbooking. So yeah, there is a reason for it and it's annoying as hell, but I don't think it needs to go entirely.

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Was just talking to my girlfriend about how this guy getting thrown off a plane has blown up to become an international news item, all over the news and social media.  She said "we are all this guy".  :lol: 

The incident is definitely outrageous on its own, but it does feel to me that the viral nature of the story is a manifestation of everyone's shitty airline / airport experiences bubbling to the surface.  WE FUCKING KNEW IT.  

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3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

It wouldn't justify United.  I was simply curious.

The public's thirst for curiosity makes things worse.  Look at that poster who brought up this completely irrelevant info.  He outright admitted that this irrelevant stuff leads him to have less sympathy for the situation.  This type of attitude arises around police shootings and other injustices.  People shrug their shoulder because they hear stories about the victim and think he was a bad person and surely nothing could happen to them because they aren't a bad person.  

If you aren't sympathetic for it's own sake, be aware that this can easily happen to you.  And then think about how the media or a police department or a multi-billion dollar company can dig up any little thing about you and share it as a way to disparage your character and make the public think you deserved it.  Let's hope you have paid every single fine you've ever been issued or that there isn't a single picture of you on social media where you are looking or acting drunk.

2 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Agreed that I think the solution is better compensation. I'd also add that when booking a flight, you also get sold a booking order. If you buy a ticket once it's been fully booked, you get told that and understand you're essentially on a stand-by list, but entitled to compensation if it does become overbooked.

The first thing I did when I heard this story was read up on the practice of overbooking. So yeah, there is a reason for it and it's annoying as hell, but I don't think it needs to go entirely.

I agree with this.  Probably need better boarding practices as well.  Flight shouldn't have been boarded if it was overbooked, not until they'd sorted out seating. 

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5 minutes ago, mormont said:

OK. But this isn't an 'interesting wrinkle', surely? An interesting wrinkle means it's relevant to the situation. If the guy had been behaving badly at the time, it would be relevant: as it is, even if everything reported in those links is true, all it means is that the same thing could have happened to you, me, or the most morally upstanding person on Earth. 

I don't doubt for a minute that it could happen to anyone. In that respect, his scummy background it's not pertinent. But, when you think about how the story will unfold for Dao in the future, it is relevant. Any sort of settlement he hopes to get from United will no doubt be affected by his scummy past. 

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11 minutes ago, mormont said:

Serious question: do first class seats get overbooked?

I think most airlines do not overbook first class seats; which is one of the reasons those seats are so much more expensive than economy or even business class. Also, there's always the option at the gate to see if anyone is willing to upgrade to first class (at a reduced cost) if there are any open seats; which is not really an option for economy class anymore. The standby system is a lot harder to use and less common to find post-9/11; at least in the US.

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Dr.P,

I'm entirely sympathetic to the passenger regardless of his past.  

I don't believe the flight was "overbooked".  I think, at the last minute United discovered it needed to get a Flight crew somewhere and decided to bump boarded passengers to facilitate its needs.

I'm really curious to find out why United's lack of organization means paying passengers have to make way for flight crew?

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Overbooking is a pretty much outrageous practice and that it came to then picking people by lottery (not even a fair one as it was favoured those who weren't cattle class) makes me sick to my stomach. Hopefully something good will come out of this and the practice will end. 

Having said that, the media over reaction to the way the guy was thrown out was predictable. By all accounts the guy was being disruptive and aggressive and so the manner that he was escorted out looked a lot worse than it was. He certainly shouldn't be held up as a hero. Neither should articles like these start being published:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/11/united-airlines-flying-while-asian-fear

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Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Dr.P,

I'm entirely sympathetic to the passenger regardless of his past.  

I don't believe the flight was "overbooked".  I think, at the last minute United discovered it needed to get a Flight crew somewhere and decided to bump boarded passengers to facilitate its needs.

I'm really curious to find out why United's lack of organization means paying passengers have to make way for flight crew?

When they make that kinda mistake I think the smart thing to do is to keep upping the ante until someone takes it.  $800 is tempting, I almost took an $800 voucher once.  If they'd gone a little higher I probably would have done it.

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1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Dr.P,

I'm entirely sympathetic to the passenger regardless of his past.  

I don't believe the flight was "overbooked".  I think, at the last minute United discovered it needed to get a Flight crew somewhere and decided to bump boarded passengers to facilitate its needs.

I'm really curious to find out why United's lack of organization means paying passengers have to make way for flight crew?

Lot of assumptions here that lack any supporting info.

However, have you considered the plane load of paying customers that were waiting for those crew members?

What is the basis for your assertion that this was a lack of organization, and not simply unforseen circumstances?

 

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Just now, S John said:

When they make that kinda mistake I think the smart thing to do is to keep upping the ante until someone takes it.  $800 is tempting, I almost took an $800 voucher once.  If they'd gone a little higher I probably would have done it.

Also, the maximum offer under Federal regulations is $1,350. They should've at least offered that before doing anything else.

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Wouldn't a simpler solution for the airline be to offer non-refundable tickets for a guaranteed seat?  Then if you don't show up, the seat is still paid for, and they could likely put someone on standby into your empty seat, doubling their profit for that seat.  If the customer preferred to take the slight chance they get bounced off a flight in exchange for the option of a refundable ticket, then so bet it.  

Maybe nobody would buy the guaranteed tickets, but I for one, probably would in most circumstances.

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1 minute ago, Ded As Ned said:

Wouldn't a simpler solution for the airline be to offer non-refundable tickets for a guaranteed seat?  Then if you don't show up, the seat is still paid for, and they could likely put someone on standby into your empty seat, doubling their profit for that seat.  If the customer preferred to take the slight chance they get bounced off a flight in exchange for the option of a refundable ticket, then so bet it.  

Maybe nobody would buy the guaranteed tickets, but I for one, probably would in most circumstances.

Why pay a premium for something that is a rare occurrence at best, and for which you are likely to receive compensation in the unlikely event that it does happen, and that it;s generally going to cost you only a handful of hours?

I suppose if you absolutely must be somewhere at a certain time that might make sense, but it seems much simpler in those limited cases to simply make allowances for the uncertainties of travel and plan accordingly.

 

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2 minutes ago, Fez said:

I think most airlines do not overbook first class seats; which is one of the reasons those seats are so much more expensive than economy or even business class.

Then I have to wonder, is the saving for the passenger really so substantial? Is the practice really such an unavoidable business necessity? Would a first class passenger ever be asked to give up his seat for a crew that needed to be somewhere? Were the first class passengers included in this lottery that took place? And what justification is there, in the end, for regular passengers to be treated in a way that's just not even on the options list for first class passengers? Nicer food and more legroom is one thing, the ability to be removed from the flight by force is quite another.

I think it's 100% worth questioning the economics of this practice rather than just saying 'fares would go up' because the airlines say so.

1 minute ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

By all accounts the guy was being disruptive and aggressive

You mean 'by some accounts'.

7 minutes ago, MisterOJ said:

I don't doubt for a minute that it could happen to anyone. In that respect, his scummy background it's not pertinent. But, when you think about how the story will unfold for Dao in the future, it is relevant. Any sort of settlement he hopes to get from United will no doubt be affected by his scummy past. 

Will it? In what way?

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Just now, Swordfish said:

Why pay a premium for something that is a rare occurrence at best, and for which you are likely to receive compensation in the unlikely event that it does happen, and that it;s generally going to cost you only a handful of hours?

I suppose if you absolutely must be somewhere at a certain time that might make sense, but it seems much simpler in those limited cases to simply make allowances for the uncertainties of travel and plan accordingly.

 

In my idea, the cost would be the same for either ticket.  And I don't think it's that uncommon.  I'm not a frequent flyer, probably 3-4 times a year round trip, but it's been over a decade since I was on a flight that wasn't completely full... and probably half the time they have asked for volunteers to take a later flight (and always got them).

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1 minute ago, mormont said:

Then I have to wonder, is the saving for the passenger really so substantial? Is the practice really such an unavoidable business necessity? Would a first class passenger ever be asked to give up his seat for a crew that needed to be somewhere? Were the first class passengers included in this lottery that took place? And what justification is there, in the end, for regular passengers to be treated in a way that's just not even on the options list for first class passengers? Nicer food and more legroom is one thing, the ability to be removed from the flight by force is quite another.

I think it's 100% worth questioning the economics of this practice rather than just saying 'fares would go up' because the airlines say so.

 

Sure.  So where is your evidence to counter the economic arguments put forth by the airlines?

 

If it is not for economic reasons, then what is your theory as to why they do it?

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1 minute ago, Ded As Ned said:

In my idea, the cost would be the same for either ticket.  And I don't think it's that uncommon.  I'm not a frequent flyer, probably 3-4 times a year round trip, but it's been over a decade since I was on a flight that wasn't completely full... and probably half the time they have asked for volunteers to take a later flight (and always got them).

It's very uncommon.  Even on fights where it occurs, it happens to only a small percentage of the passengers. So the likelihood of being forced to take a different flight to any given passenger on any given flight is quite low, since as you said, even in the unlikely event, they generally get volunteers.  

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