Overbooking, Flightcrew over paying passengers, the United incident

[Ice Queen]

I have a question. Since when is it the job of local police to forcibly remove passengers simply because the airline wants to bump them off the flight?

[Dr. Pepper]

3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I don't know what else to call it. You don't often hear an adult make noises like that, do you? It was uncomfortable to listen to. This was prior to the point where he was injured to the point where he was bleeding from the mouth. 

Yes, when I've seen adults assaulted, I have heard many various noises leave their mouths and bodies.  I don't tend to belittle these responses by mocking them as two year olds.  Fear makes people make crazy noises.  Not to mention that fear response noises we make are also very cultural.  I'm sure the Chinese thank you kindly for saying they sound like bleating two year olds when they are scared.  

[Prince of the North]

15 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Tens of millions, I bet. The amount of video evidence in regards to his treatment alone is extremely damning. United would be best advised to settle, as a court case surrounding this is going to be crippling from a PR standpoint. They are rightfully screwed here. As emotionally unsettling as this encounter may have been for this gentleman, it was an unparalleled bit of luck at the end of the day.

Yeah, I struggle a bit sometimes with whether I'm being overly cynical or simply realistic in my views.  But my immediate thought upon seeing the video was "that guy just got rich!"   

[MisterOJ]

1 minute ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

I have a question. Since when is it the job of local police to forcibly remove passengers simply because the airline wants to bump them off the flight?

I don't see it as any different than if a restaurant had a customer refusing to leave and wanted him/her removed. You call the police and tell them that you have a disruptive customer who won't leave, then it becomes the police's job to respond accordingly.

[zelticgar]

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I don't know what else to call it. You don't often hear an adult make noises like that, do you? It was uncomfortable to listen to. This was prior to the point where he was injured to the point where he was bleeding from the mouth. 

I was actually impressed that the police were able to remove him that efficiently in such a closed environment. I would have strapped myself in the seat with my seatbelt and iron-manned my grip on the arm rests. No way they are dragging me out. I would not have started squealing until they went into "don't taze me bro" mode. 

Seriously though, whoever is managing that situation is a moron and needs to be fired. Once people are on the plane you can't asked them to get off. Everyone was sitting, had put their luggage away and had won or lost the arm rest battles. You can't ask people to leave after that. Take care of that shit at the gate or figure out plan B to get your crew to Louisville... 

 

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

25 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

You can't usually just grab a private jet and fly somewhere at the drop of a hat. 

It's an airline at its largest hub.  They don't have private jets they can use?

[Trebla]

16 minutes ago, The Wedge said:

They are at O'Hare.  That's United's home hub in Chicago. There are hundreds of planes. 

Find another flight on another carrier.  Fuel up a small regional plane for your crew.  Hell, DRIVE them to Louisville.  It's only 5 hours away by car.

United and the aviation police screwed this up with their tone deaf actions.  Once people are seated on a plane, they just want to get to their destination and not have to worry about vouchers, luggage that has to be found, etc.

The other thing about it being O'Hare is that it means there are several other airlines. Is there some kind of regulation that prevents  members of one airline using another airline to get to a work destination?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Yes, when I've seen adults assaulted, I have heard many various noises leave their mouths and bodies.  I don't tend to belittle these responses by mocking them as two year olds.  Fear makes people make crazy noises.  Not to mention that fear response noises we make are also very cultural.  I'm sure the Chinese thank you kindly for saying they sound like bleating two year olds when they are scared.  

It seemed to me the screaming occurred prior to him being manhandled. Maybe my timeline on that is screwed up. Seeing as how I made no mention to race, you can kindly leave your race-baiting bullshit at the door. I have never heard a grown adult, Chinese or otherwise, make those sorts of noises in the absence of anything short of a horrific situation. 

[Kalbear]

6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

It's an airline at its largest hub.  They don't have private jets they can use?

They might - but you can't just grab a plane from an airport and fly whenever you want, most of the time. There is prep work and flight plans and all sorts of shenanigans, and you still have to get into the schedule. It's not like hailing a cab. 

Now, I think that that would have been far more successful as a strategy than what they ended up doing - that while they might have ended up delaying a bunch of flights, it would have been far more preferable than what ended up costing them in their stock and PR. I'm just saying that one does not simply grab a private plane. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

8 minutes ago, Trebla said:

The other thing about it being O'Hare is that it means there are several other airlines. Is there some kind of regulation that prevents  members of one airline using another airline to get to a work destination?

No, as a matter of fact I'm pretty sure the Airlines have some sort of agreement by which they provide these sorts of services to one another, if space allows. 

[Dr. Pepper]

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

It seemed to me the screaming occurred prior to him being manhandled. Maybe my timeline on that is screwed up. Seeing as how I made no mention to race, you can kindly leave your race-baiting bullshit at the door. I have never heard a grown adult, Chinese or otherwise, make those sorts of noises in the absence of anything short of a horrific situation. 

The only videos available show him with the cops harassing him.  He's screaming.  This shit is scary.  I hear adults make noises all the time when they are scared.  I hear different sounds coming from people of different cultural backgrounds.  You clearly have never heard this before. 

If someone touches me or tries to make me do something I don't think i should be doing and does this all in a way that is terrifying, I'm going to fucking scream.  What I've learned in this thread is that some will consider it 'bleating like a 2 year old' because they are only aware of certain types of screams.  Others will just wonder what I've done outside that situation because if I'm anything but 100% perfect, then I deserve to be harassed and assaulted and terrified.  

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

No, as a matter of fact I'm pretty sure the Airlines have some sort of agreement by which they provide these sorts of services to one another, if space allows. 

They do - though I doubt very seriously that there were many non-United flights flying from Chicago to Louisville, which isn't a hub to anyone. Those are typically run by only one route and are partnered to others. They could have likely taken a flight from, say, Chicago to Charlotte or Chicago to Cinci and gone from there, but that would have taken significantly longer. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

39 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

The only videos available show him with the cops harassing him.  He's screaming.  This shit is scary.  I hear adults make noises all the time when they are scared.  I hear different sounds coming from people of different cultural backgrounds.  You clearly have never heard this before. 

If someone touches me or tries to make me do something I don't think i should be doing and does this all in a way that is terrifying, I'm going to fucking scream.  What I've learned in this thread is that some will consider it 'bleating like a 2 year old' because they are only aware of certain types of screams.  Others will just wonder what I've done outside that situation because if I'm anything but 100% perfect, then I deserve to be harassed and assaulted and terrified.  

Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I never said the man deserved to be harassed, assaulted or terrified. Just to clarify, the man did not deserve the treatment he received. United is clearly on the hook here for a fat financial settlement to this man, and rightfully so. I'm not suggesting that his screaming somehow cancels that out, I merely said that I felt his behavior could be viewed as being disruptive and over the top.

 

/And once again you make assumptions that are wholly incorrect in an attempt to paint me as being racist somehow. I was born and raised in the San Francisco Bay Area. Lived in the city for more than a decade. I still live in the area. I have most certainly seen and heard angry/hysterical/upset Chinese people over the course of my existence. I've never heard a grown adult make those types of noises under these types of circumstances.

[The Wedge]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

They do - though I doubt very seriously that there were many non-United flights flying from Chicago to Louisville, which isn't a hub to anyone. Those are typically run by only one route and are partnered to others. They could have likely taken a flight from, say, Chicago to Charlotte or Chicago to Cinci and gone from there, but that would have taken significantly longer. 

It's a 5 hour DRIVE to Louisville.  Hire a car or a small buss to take them charter style.  There are tons of services near O'Hare that could accommodate that on a moments notice.

[Swordfish]

47 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What "unforseen circumstances" would leave a plane full of people waiting for a crew to fly from Chicago to Louisville that wasn't caused by poor planning on United's part?

This has alerady been answered.  it's not rocket surgery, Scot.  You're a smart guy, spend some time thinking about all the times you;ve flown and all the points at which something un foreseen could have happened.  I'm sure you'll come up with something.

Here's another example of an unforseen circumstance;

A normal request to bump a passenger, which happens routinely, escalates in a way that no one could have predicted, prompting a bunch of 'outraged' arm chair airline planners to fail to think about things rationally.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Tens of millions, I bet. The amount of video evidence in regards to his treatment alone is extremely damning. United would be best advised to settle, as a court case surrounding this is going to be crippling from a PR standpoint. They are rightfully screwed here. As emotionally unsettling as this encounter may have been for this gentleman, it was an unparalleled bit of luck at the end of the day.

I can't see him getting tens of millions from this.  That would be pretty egregious, given the actual damages here.

15 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

It's an airline at its largest hub.  They don't have private jets they can use?

I don't know, Scot, do they?

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, The Wedge said:

It's a 5 hour DRIVE to Louisville.  Hire a car or a small buss to take them charter style.  There are tons of services near O'Hare that could accommodate that on a moments notice.

Yes, that's fine. It'd delay the next flight by a few hours, and that'd suck, but again - better choice than what they ended up doing.

My suspicion is that United's policies were not remotely flexible enough to allow this kind of decision making. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

This has alerady been answered.  it's not rocket surgery, Scot.  You're a smart guy, spend some time thinking about all the times you;ve flown and all the points at which something un foreseen could have happened.  I'm sure you'll come up with something.

Here's another example of an unforseen circumstance;

A normal request to bump a passenger, which happens routinely, escalates in a way that no one could have predicted, prompting a bunch of 'outraged' arm chair airline planners to fail to think about things rationally.

 

 

I can't see him getting tens of millions from this.  That would be pretty egregious, given the actual damages here.

I don't know, Scot, do they?

Gosh, it's better to force people who have already boarded and settled in for a flight... off the flight to the extent that they drag the man's unconscious body off the plane than it is to, as other's have suggested, have someone drive them to Louisville in a bus or company car?

And geez United is a major airline they don't have private jets for their executives?

[Swordfish]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Gosh, it's better to force people who have already boarded and settled in for a flight... off the flight to the extent that they drag the man's unconscious body off the plane than it is to, as other's have suggested, have someone drive them to Louisville in a bus or company car?
 

Oh yeah.  Obviously I'm suggesting what happened here is the best possible outcome.  I don't know how you could have interpreted it in any other way. 

 

Quote

And geez United is a major airline they don't have private jets for their executives?

 

I don't know, Scot, do they?

 

[Ice Queen]

27 minutes ago, MisterOJ said:

I don't see it as any different than if a restaurant had a customer refusing to leave and wanted him/her removed. You call the police and tell them that you have a disruptive customer who won't leave, then it becomes the police's job to respond accordingly.

By all accounts he wasn't being disruptive. They simply wanted to boot him off and called the police to do it for them. 

So why should the police get involved in the airline cheating their customers?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

By all accounts he wasn't being disruptive. They simply wanted to boot him off and called the police to do it for them. 

So why should the police get involved in the airline cheating their customers?

Not to defend the practice but by all accounts it was, sadly, legal.  That doesn't make it "right".