Overbooking, Flightcrew over paying passengers, the United incident

[ljkeane]

1 hour ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I hope this guy gets a huge payout.  Even if the fine print on his ticket makes this legal*, I think it's time for citizen jurors to push back on customers getting physically manhandled to enforce contractual fine print.  I don't see any basis for a "security officer" to physically intervene without a court order in a situation not posing harm to others

An article I read on this said there's some doubt it was legal. Apparently the fine print on United's contract with passengers allows them to 'deny boarding' involuntarily to non first class passengers after first asking for volunteers for overbooked flights. Whether the term 'deny boarding' covers physically ejecting already boarded passengers for seats for their own staff is a bit of a question mark. 

[Maltaran]

Just now, ljkeane said:

An article I read on this said there's some doubt it was legal. Apparently the fine print on United's contract with passengers allows them to 'deny boarding' involuntarily to non first class passengers after first asking for volunteers for overbooked flights. Whether the term 'deny boarding' covers physically ejecting already boarded passengers for seats for their own staff is a bit of a question mark. 

The article I saw stated that legally, the captain has full authority to throw anyone off the plane.

[ljkeane]

1 minute ago, Maltaran said:

The article I saw stated that legally, the captain has full authority to throw anyone off the plane.

That may be the case with 'disruptive' passengers, perhaps why United are using the term so much, but they created the scenario with trying to eject him in the first place. If that's not covered by their contract with their customers I'm not an expert but it seems like enough of a grey area that they could lose if they're sued, and potentially for a lot of money considering how bad the videos look.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

12 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

See links above.  i've already posted link to answer both the question of how often this happens, and the procedures which are followed when it does.

i don't know why you keep adding that 'already settled in their seats' part, as if it's some kind of game changer here.  of all the inconveniences of being bumped from a flight, I'd suggest that 'already settled in your seat' is the least of them.

 

The passengers always get to go where they paid the airline to take them, Scot.  Now you're just being disingenuous.  

 

 

No.  This is a long way from the typical situation that you keep claiming that it is.  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

That may be the case with 'disruptive' passengers, perhaps why United are using the term so much, but they created the scenario with trying to eject him in the first place. If that's not covered by their contract with their customers I'm not an expert but it seems like enough of a grey area that they could lose if they're sued, and potentially for a lot of money considering how bad the videos look.

I think there is enough wiggle room in that particular language to have Plaintiff's attorney's salivating.

[Swordfish]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

No.  This is a long way from the typical situation that you keep claiming that it is.  

I have never, not once, described this situation as typical.  in fact, i've said numerous times that it's extremely rare.  i even posted link showing exactly HOW rare it is.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

I have never, not once, described this situation as typical.  in fact, i've said numerous times that it's extremely rare.  i even posted link showing exactly HOW rare it is.

 

And the fact that it is unusual means that it gets attention.  Your "nothing to see here... move along" is really missing the point.

[ljkeane]

The CEO of United has decided this was perhaps worthy of an apology after all.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 hours ago, Swordfish said:

Yep.  Not much more to say here really. 

like this one.

[Swordfish]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

And the fact that it is unusual means that it gets attention.  You're "nothing to see here... move along" is really missing the point.

It's getting attention because of the force used, not because he was bumped.

So... No.  I'm not missing the point at all.

 

[Swordfish]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

like this one.

I'm flattered that you like that one, but it's far from my best post.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

It's getting attention because of the force used, not because he was bumped.

So... No.  I'm not missing the point at all.

 

Yes.  Which prompts the question of whether it is proper (not "legal" ... "proper") to involuntarily boot passengers from aircraft once they are on board given the language about the ability to "deny boarding".  They're already "boarded" at that point.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

I'm flattered that you like that one, but it's far from my best post.

[Swordfish]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yes.  Which prompts the question of whether it is proper to involuntarily boot passengers from aircraft once they are on board given the language about the ability to "deny boarding".  They're already "boarded" at that point.

That's not the argument you were making, Scot.  

Seriously, if you're not going to discuss this in good faith, then you're on your own.

 

[MisterOJ]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

clip

So in your professional opinion, if this were to go to civil court, what's the likelihood that the defense would be able to bring up the doctor's prior convictions at trial? Is that something that's pretty likely, or could a judge easily exclude that?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

That's not the argument you were making, Scot.  

Seriously, if you're not going to discuss this in good faith, then you're on your own.

 

That's the argument I'm making now.  Conversations flow.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

11 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I think there is enough wiggle room in that particular language to have Plaintiff's attorney's salivating.

Oh yeah, I imagine this gentleman's door is being knocked down right now by attorneys. This has payday stamped all over it.

[Seli]

38 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

It's getting attention because of the force used, not because he was bumped.

So... No.  I'm not missing the point at all.

 

He wasn't bumped, that would have prevented all of this mess. He was removed, with excessive force when offering cash would probably have solved the issue easily. The deep problem is companies happily using force when clear paths to convince people otherwise are available. The problem is even more clear when competition (Delta apparently) has been using a monetary solution to get out of their own messes recently. 

[James Arryn]

4 minutes ago, Seli said:

He wasn't bumped, that would have prevented all of this mess. He was removed, with excessive force when offering cash would probably have solved the issue easily. The deep problem is companies happily using force when clear paths to convince people otherwise are available. The problem is even more clear when competition (Delta apparently) has been using a monetary solution to get out of their own messes recently. 

Dunno if they're fake or not, but people claiming to have been passengers have said that other passengers did in fact say they'd 'volunteer' if the price was high enough, but were literally laughed off before being told United had alternative options, ie 'lottery'.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, Seli said:

He wasn't bumped, that would have prevented all of this mess. He was removed, with excessive force when offering cash would probably have solved the issue easily. The deep problem is companies happily using force when clear paths to convince people otherwise are available. The problem is even more clear when competition (Delta apparently) has been using a monetary solution to get out of their own messes recently. 

I googled what you said about Delta.  That's smart:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/how-delta-masters-the-game-of-overbooking-flights/