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Overbooking, Flightcrew over paying passengers, the United incident


Ser Scot A Ellison

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Just now, James Arryn said:

I'm really missing something here. I don't know the original discussion, just going on the posts about it here, but are you arguing that it's cool to react with violence to racist comments...in order to prevent violence? Doesn't this involve the idea of whether or not assaulting Nazis for saying Nazi stuff is ok, or was that just hyprbole?

I think punching Nazis is perfectly understandable, but can't be condoned just on the basis of their comments. There's just no way to limit that kind of dynamic to only people who say the 'wrong' things. 

I think that it is quite acceptable (though not legal) to react with violence to comments made specifically to incite anger or to goad others into doing the same, yes. 

I recognize that this is not a particularly great stance with respect to the freest of free speech, and I don't really give a shit, because I don't believe that free speech which allows happily for nazis to spout out their bullshit is particularly good for society or people, and I don't think terrorizing people in the blanket of free speech works out in the end for that society or for people in general. 

Similarly, I think that the use of force to remove someone from private premises is some times called for, and it should be public authorities with oversight who are doing it - but I think that United fucked up because they specifically called on this to happen not because someone was a danger to the crew or the flight or was even disruptive, but because they wanted to make more money. 

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For some reason I've found myself enjoying the pretty terrible dark humor of United's competitors and other entities throwing shade at the airline.  Several competitors have specifically mocked the fact that United's tagline is "fly the friendly skies".  Some have even been direct with releasing videos that customers won't be dragged violently off their flights.  

Merriam-Webster made sure to define volunteer for United.

All so tasteless, but can't stop the chuckle.  Anyone have a favorite?

6 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I don't have a problem with saying the toddler comment was wrong, and ME has been big enough to admit where he might have seen this wrong. I just don't think there's any basis for connecting it to racism aside from something you're carrying around about him, and there's a history to that, too. I don't think it's helpful to discussing the thing on it's merits, and now here we are probably on watch for having this entire discussion closed down. Is that in any way what you wanted to accomplish? 

I'm not even sure this is a serious question, because I feel like it's always been clear that yeah, I'd gladly punch nazis, so to speak.

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55 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Probably because unless United enforces this specific policy of theirs there wouldn't be any real issue. They chose to escalate it to this point. ETA: and then they chose to double down on the 'what we did wasn't wrong' for a whole day, until their stock dropped 1.5bn.

Yeah I get all that and I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any outrage directed towards United. It just seems like a larger share of it should be directed at the airport's security. 

Also, honestly, what were they supposed to do? 

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Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Yeah I get all that and I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any outrage directed towards United. It just seems like a larger share of it should be directed at the airport's security. 

Also, honestly, what were they supposed to do? 

Try to offer more money to entice other passengers to delay for 24 hours.  

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Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Yeah I get all that and I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any outrage directed towards United. It just seems like a larger share of it should be directed at the airport's security. 

Also, honestly, what were they supposed to do? 

Airport security did precisely what they were supposed to do and what they were taught to do - when an airline requests that an uncooperative person should be removed, they come in, ask for removal, bring them out of the plane without force (the 1st time) and then bring them out of the plane by force if necessary. I really can't fault them for doing that, as bad as it looked, because that's really what they're supposed to do in that situation.

United created the situation by not giving enough incentive earlier to people leaving the plane and then choosing to re-accomodate people after they couldn't get enough seats given up. At that point they rolled the dice and took their chance that the person in question would be acceptably chastened and would get up. They planned badly, had poor policy for this situation, escalated badly and ultimately failed. United basically did everything they could to screw this up. 

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1 minute ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Try to offer more money to entice other passengers to delay for 24 hours.  

The offer they made was fair IMO. And if nobody takes it you kind of have to randomly pick people. And if said people refuse to get off the plane then security has to remove them. It was poorly executed but there's nothing wrong with the process.

Maybe I see it this way because I've had jobs that require you to fly multiple times in a week. And every now and then you unfortunately get bumped from the flight. It sucks, but this guy acted like a total baby, as others have said.

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10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The offer they made was fair IMO. And if nobody takes it you kind of have to randomly pick people. And if said people refuse to get off the plane then security has to remove them. It was poorly executed but there's nothing wrong with the process.

Maybe I see it this way because I've had jobs that require you to fly multiple times in a week. And every now and then you unfortunately get bumped from the flight. It sucks, but this guy acted like a total baby, as others have said.

This is the same issue that another poster tried to argue, that everyone will have a price and they should just happily accept that price, damn the consequences.  

 $800 wouldn't even make me think about it.  That's not because of some high powered career that makes a lot of money, but because I have obligations that have real consequences if I fail to show up on time. Saying no to money doesn't make anyone a fucking baby nor deserving to be assaulted.  

It obviously wasn't a fair price because not a single person on the entire plane was interested.  

6 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

I don't think that offer was fair. One day of my life is worth way more than 800buks  That's a fucking insult.

Can't believe I'm doing this, but yeah, QFT.  

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6 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

By what right or entitlement are you making this claim? ;)

Lolz

6 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

This is the same issue that another poster tried to argue, that everyone will have a price and they should just happily accept that price, damn the consequences.  

 $800 wouldn't even make me think about it.  It obviously wasn't a fair price because not a single person on the entire plane was interested.  

Is that so? All the reporting I've seen indicates that he and his wife initially accepted the offer. 

And if it was me, I would have taken the $800 and drove to KY. It's 5 hours on paper. I could make that in 3 and a half hours easy. 

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2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Lolz

Is that so? All the reporting I've seen indicates that he and his wife initially accepted the offer. 

And if it was me, I would have taken the $800 and drove to KY. It's 5 hours on paper. I could make that in 3 and a half hours easy. 

Yet no one did.  Your subjective opinion about what is a fair expense is not universal.  I believe Dr. Dao was flying home from Japan.  Perhaps he didn't feel up to driving five hours after having flown back across the international date line.  Regardless, United handled this incredibly poorly.

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Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yet no one did.  Your subjective opinion about what is a fair expense is not universal.  I believe Dr. Dao was flying home from Japan.  Perhaps he didn't feel up to driving five hours after having flown back across the international date line.  Regardless, United handled this incredibly poorly.

Two people (a couple I believe) did accept the $800 and a hotel voucher. I believe that's what Tywin is referring to. United needed 4 spots all together, so they then employed some sort of computerized randomizer to determine who the other two spots would be. Not sure what the other person's reaction was (this doesn't seem to be reported anywhere) but obviously Dr. Dao's reaction was the reason this became a story.

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8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Lolz

Is that so? All the reporting I've seen indicates that he and his wife initially accepted the offer. 

And if it was me, I would have taken the $800 and drove to KY. It's 5 hours on paper. I could make that in 3 and a half hours easy. 

Ok, if you were on that flight, then perhaps this wouldn't be an issue.  You're able bodied, willing and able to drive, have ample time in which to delay travel so as to accept a token amount of money, are relatively free of obligations which would require you to ddecline a bump.  But you weren't on that flight.  Others were who determined that their time wasn't worth $800.  They didn't have the opportunity to determine if their time was worth slightly more than that because United never offered and instead went straight to cops. 

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7 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Two people (a couple I believe) did accept the $800 and a hotel voucher. I believe that's what Tywin is referring to. United needed 4 spots all together, so they then employed some sort of computerized randomizer to determine who the other two spots would be. Not sure what the other person's reaction was (this doesn't seem to be reported anywhere) but obviously Dr. Dao's reaction was the reason this became a story.

What I've read said that two people agreed to the involuntary bump, not the $800.00 voluntary bump.

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5 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

I don't think that offer was fair. One day of my life is worth way more than 800buks  That's a fucking insult.

Was he going to have to wait an entire day?  I haven't seen any reporting on what they were planning to do with him.

Also, this has been posted several times now, but one more try I suppose can't hurt:

 

If you’re involuntarily denied boarding, the Department of Transportation regulates what you’re entitled to. Here are the rules, as published by the DOT:

  • If you are bumped involuntarily and the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to get you to your final destination (including later connections) within one hour of your original scheduled arrival time, there is no compensation.
  • If the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to arrive at your destination between one and two hours after your original arrival time (between one and four hours on international flights), the airline must pay you an amount equal to 200% of your one-way fare to your final destination that day, with a $675 maximum.
  • If the substitute transportation is scheduled to get you to your destination more than two hours later (four hours internationally), or if the airline does not make any substitute travel arrangements for you, the compensation doubles (400% of your one-way fare, $1350 maximum).
  • If your ticket does not show a fare (for example, a frequent-flyer award ticket or a ticket issued by a consolidator), your denied boarding compensation is based on the lowest cash, check or credit card payment charged for a ticket in the same class of service (e.g., coach, first class) on that flight.
  • You always get to keep your original ticket and use it on another flight. If you choose to make your own arrangements, you can request an “involuntary refund” for the ticket for the flight you were bumped from. The denied boarding compensation is essentially a payment for your inconvenience.
  • If you paid for optional services on your original flight (e.g., seat selection, checked baggage) and you did not receive those services on your substitute flight or were required to pay a second time, the airline that bumped you must refund those payments to you.

 

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9 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Two people (a couple I believe) did accept the $800 and a hotel voucher. I believe that's what Tywin is referring to. United needed 4 spots all together, so they then employed some sort of computerized randomizer to determine who the other two spots would be. Not sure what the other person's reaction was (this doesn't seem to be reported anywhere) but obviously Dr. Dao's reaction was the reason this became a story.

I think the other was his wife? I thought I heard that but can't find it anywhere. 

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What I've read said that two people agreed to the involuntary bump, not the $800.00 voluntary bump.

Therefore everyone ought to have agreed to voluntarily bump! The bar for reasonable behaviour is set by the lowest, everyone knows that. Screw y'all for wanting money, you mercenary bastards. Think of the children! 

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5 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Was he going to have to wait an entire day?  I haven't seen any reporting on what they were planning to do with him.

Also, this has been posted several times now, but one more try I suppose can't hurt:

 

If you’re involuntarily denied boarding, the Department of Transportation regulates what you’re entitled to. Here are the rules, as published by the DOT:

  • If you are bumped involuntarily and the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to get you to your final destination (including later connections) within one hour of your original scheduled arrival time, there is no compensation.
  • If the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to arrive at your destination between one and two hours after your original arrival time (between one and four hours on international flights), the airline must pay you an amount equal to 200% of your one-way fare to your final destination that day, with a $675 maximum.
  • If the substitute transportation is scheduled to get you to your destination more than two hours later (four hours internationally), or if the airline does not make any substitute travel arrangements for you, the compensation doubles (400% of your one-way fare, $1350 maximum).
  • If your ticket does not show a fare (for example, a frequent-flyer award ticket or a ticket issued by a consolidator), your denied boarding compensation is based on the lowest cash, check or credit card payment charged for a ticket in the same class of service (e.g., coach, first class) on that flight.
  • You always get to keep your original ticket and use it on another flight. If you choose to make your own arrangements, you can request an “involuntary refund” for the ticket for the flight you were bumped from. The denied boarding compensation is essentially a payment for your inconvenience.
  • If you paid for optional services on your original flight (e.g., seat selection, checked baggage) and you did not receive those services on your substitute flight or were required to pay a second time, the airline that bumped you must refund those payments to you.

 

That doesn't make it fair though

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The man's wife keeps getting brought up.  Is the suggestion that one must do exactly as their spouse does?  Because that shit doesn't fly in my life.  My partner is able to do things I am not and vice versa.  No fucking way would I expect that she follow me in every decision I make. 

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