Overbooking, Flightcrew over paying passengers, the United incident

[James Arryn]

12 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Overbooking is a pretty much outrageous practice and that it came to then picking people by lottery (not even a fair one as it was favoured those who weren't cattle class) makes me sick to my stomach. Hopefully something good will come out of this and the practice will end. 

Having said that, the media over reaction to the way the guy was thrown out was predictable. By all accounts the guy was being disruptive and aggressive and so the manner that he was escorted out looked a lot worse than it was. He certainly shouldn't be held up as a hero. Neither should articles like these start being published:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/11/united-airlines-flying-while-asian-fear

By what accounts was he being disruptive and aggressive? 

[Gorn]

39 minutes ago, Fez said:

The problem with getting rid of overbooking is that it'll result in customers either facing much larger penalties for cancelling flights or significantly more expensive flights; and I'm not sure either trade-off there is worth it. Overbooking exists because lots of people end up cancelling flights, but those planes need to be a certain percent full to be operating at a profit.

They overbook, what, 4-5 seats per 100-seat plane? And if they estimate wrongly, they will end up paying large amounts to volunteering passengers. I don't think that the practice was so profitable in the first place that it would result in "significantly" more expensive flights.

Not to mention the fact that this penny-pinching led to United losing a billion dollars in stock value in one day.

[MisterOJ]

4 minutes ago, mormont said:

Will it? In what way?

Unless there is some kind of really crazy turn of events, either he is going to work out some compensation deal with United through mediation, or he's going to take them to civil court for damages.

If he gets a deal from United without going to court, you can bet that the airline's offer would be substantially more if he didn't have have the drug conviction on his record. If he takes United to court, the same thing applies because the amount he would be awarded in damages would be determined by a jury and human nature being what it is, once they hear about his past, you can bet they would not award nearly as much.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

9 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Lot of assumptions here that lack any supporting info.

However, have you considered the plane load of paying customers that were waiting for those crew members?

What is the basis for your assertion that this was a lack of organization, and not simply unforseen circumstances?

 

From NPR:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/04/10/523275494/passenger-forcibly-removed-from-united-flight-prompting-outcry

From the article:

 

Witnesses say passengers had already boarded on Sunday evening at O'Hare International Airport when United asked for volunteers to take another flight the next day to make room for four United staff members who needed seats.

How else do you explain United having to ask seated passengers to give up their seats on an aircraft, after boarding, but poor organization on the part of United?

[The Wedge]

Still wondering why United can't just get the crew to Louisville in an alternate manner.  Another carrier? Fuel up one of United's planes at ORD and fly them there? Have a chauffeur drive them the 5 hours to Louisville?

All are better options than inconveniencing paying customers, whose time is worth a lot more than a travel voucher.

[Swordfish]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

From NPR:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/04/10/523275494/passenger-forcibly-removed-from-united-flight-prompting-outcry

From the article:
 

How else do you explain United having to ask seated passengers to give up their seats on an aircraft, after boarding, but poor organization on the part of United?

Unforseen circumstances would be another possibility.  Which is why I asked;

 

Quote

What is the basis for your assertion that this was a lack of organization, and not simply unforseen circumstances?

Simply repeating your assumption does not actually answer that question, nor does it address the question about the paying passengers who were presumably waiting on that crew.

[kairparavel]

12 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I don't believe the flight was "overbooked".  I think, at the last minute United discovered it needed to get a Flight crew somewhere and decided to bump boarded passengers to facilitate its needs.

This. It wasn't overbooked. Each passenger had a boarding pass and were in their seats. This is why it's a much bigger problem than overbooking.

If there are too many passengers per seat you either don't get a boarding pass and are placed on standby at check-in, or you know before you get on the plane. The negotiations start in the gate and boarding doesn't start until the negotiations are done. I don't work in the airline industry, but I've certainly flown enough and experienced delays because of it. I've never been bumped though.

United handled this poorly, but the bigger villains are the Chicage Airport Authority cops who thought it was ok to manhandle an uncooperative person.

I don't know what the correct answer is because I agree with what Fez said and I like Gertrude's idea. But I do know this is not how it's handled. And United should have been way more contrite in their response. But sadly they don't really need to due to how few aviation choices you have in the US, and code-sharing and hubs/routes.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

8 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

By what accounts was he being disruptive and aggressive? 

Not that any of this justifies what United did at all, but the guy was absolutely ridiculous. He was bleating like a 2 year old. You haven't seen any of the Iphone videos? I sympathize with the guy to some degree, but he was over the top. The fact of the matter is he's going to get paid regardless. This is going to be a huge payday for him.  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Unforseen circumstances would be another possibility.  Which is why I asked;

 

 

What "unforseen circumstances" would leave a plane full of people waiting for a crew to fly from Chicago to Louisville that wasn't caused by poor planning on United's part?

[James Arryn]

6 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Not that any of this justifies what United did at all, but the guy was absolutely ridiculous. He was bleating like a 2 year old. You haven't seen any of the Iphone videos? I sympathize with the guy to some degree, but he was over the top. The fact of the matter is he's going to get paid regardless. This is going to be a huge payday for him.  

I've seen the videos, and in none of them was he aggressive. He was defensive, and protesting, until cracked in the face after which he was bleeding and kind of out of it as they dragged him along the floor.

But his noises weren't ever all that distinct from the protests of the passengers around him, many of whom were being quite vocal about what was happening, which gives us the best metric for who was over the top, IMO. Several passengers on board have tweeted accounts; none in any way blame him or highlight his behaviour in the initial encounter and say he merely was saying he did not want to be kicked off and pretty quiet until they started manhandling him; some say he was quite bizarre when he later returned, but most seem to think he was pretty stunned and still bleeding. 

[kairparavel]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What "unforseen circumstances" would leave a plane full of people waiting for a crew to fly from Chicago to Louisville that wasn't caused by poor planning on United's part?

Weather delays. Mechanical delays. Other things that caused local crews to time out and thus requiring other crews to come in to fly planes? It's not awesome but stuff happens. 

I mean when you can't make work, is it strictly due to your lack of organization? 

[Prince of the North]

4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Not that any of this justifies what United did at all, but the guy was absolutely ridiculous. He was bleating like a 2 year old. You haven't seen any of the Iphone videos? I sympathize with the guy to some degree, but he was over the top. The fact of the matter is he's going to get paid regardless. This is going to be a huge payday for him.  

Very much agreed that he will get paid - the only question is how much?  As MisterOJ says, that's where his character/background being put on trial will come in.

However, I don't know what happened before the Iphone videos I've seen start but it seems to me that he started "bleating", etc. only after he was grabbed and as he was being forcibly removed from his seat  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 minutes ago, kairparavel said:

Weather delays. Mechanical delays. Other things that caused local crews to time out and thus requiring other crews to come in to fly planes? It's not awesome but stuff happens. 

I mean when you can't make work, is it strictly due to your lack of organization? 

Kair,

Respectfully, that's a serious problem when you are bumping 4 paying passengers from a normal flight to get your flight crew to where you want them.  Can't they use a private jet to get those people where they need to be without disrupting another flight to fix whatever was wrong?

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Kair,

Respectfully, that's a serious problem when you are bumping 4 paying passengers from a normal flight to get your flight crew to where you want them.  Can't they use a private jet to get those people where they need to be without disrupting another flight to fix whatever was wrong?

You can't usually just grab a private jet and fly somewhere at the drop of a hat. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, Prince of the North said:

Very much agreed that he will get paid - the only question is how much?  As MisterOJ says, that's where his character/background being put on trial will come in.

However, I don't know what happened before the Iphone videos I've seen start but it seems to me that he started "bleating", etc. only after he was grabbed and as he was being forcibly removed from his seat  

Tens of millions, I bet. The amount of video evidence in regards to his treatment alone is extremely damning. United would be best advised to settle, as a court case surrounding this is going to be crippling from a PR standpoint. They are rightfully screwed here. As emotionally unsettling as this encounter may have been for this gentleman, it was an unparalleled bit of luck at the end of the day.

[kairparavel]

Scott, respectfully, why ask me? I don't work for United. I just filled in your lack of imagination for you. There are reasons that things sometimes happen and it's not always because a company is incompetent. 

[The Wedge]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

You can't usually just grab a private jet and fly somewhere at the drop of a hat. 

They are at O'Hare.  That's United's home hub in Chicago. There are hundreds of planes. 

Find another flight on another carrier.  Fuel up a small regional plane for your crew.  Hell, DRIVE them to Louisville.  It's only 5 hours away by car.

United and the aviation police screwed this up with their tone deaf actions.  Once people are seated on a plane, they just want to get to their destination and not have to worry about vouchers, luggage that has to be found, etc.

[Dr. Pepper]

16 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Not that any of this justifies what United did at all, but the guy was absolutely ridiculous. He was bleating like a 2 year old. You haven't seen any of the Iphone videos? I sympathize with the guy to some degree, but he was over the top. The fact of the matter is he's going to get paid regardless. This is going to be a huge payday for him.  

Really?  "bleating like a 2 year old"?  Geez.  

The closest I've seen to your ridiculous description is a video shown after he has been assaulted and is bleeding on his face saying "don't kill me don't kill me don't kill me".  Seems like a perfectly reasonable response from a passenger of color after he was assaulted on an airplane by cops.  

[Trebla]

I posted this on FB yesterday and have been reading more about it today. My own Hot Take is that the United's physical enforcement of this rule is going to cost them millions, perhaps even a billion dollars. The "United Beaks Guitars" song cost the company an estimated $180 million dollars . Social media has grown a lot since the guitar case happened in 2008.

One other thing I've noticed is that despite multiple videos, people are still parroting the airlines' and Chicago PD's talking point that the passenger was "disruptive" and "aggressive". 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, Dr. Pepper said:

Really?  "bleating like a 2 year old"?  Geez.  

The closest I've seen to your ridiculous description is a video shown after he has been assaulted and is bleeding on his face saying "don't kill me don't kill me don't kill me".  Seems like a perfectly reasonable response from a passenger of color after he was assaulted on an airplane by cops.  

I don't know what else to call it. You don't often hear an adult make noises like that, do you? It was uncomfortable to listen to. This was prior to the point where he was injured to the point where he was bleeding from the mouth.