300 H&H Magnum

Daenerys, Young Griff, and Stannis

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Young Griff is not a blackfyre

I have spent this evening watching "Order of the Greenhand" videos based on the recommendations from this very forum.  While I am not fully convinced of their two main theories regarding the parents of Young Griff, I will admit that I am more open to this idea.  I, however, am convinced that Jon's parents are not Rhaegar and Lyanna.  I was actually a critic of RLJ so it wasn't hard for OftG to convince me. 

Why would Jon Connington support a Blackfyre?  He would not.  He loved Rhaegar and that love would extend to Rhaegar's son.  Connington believes Griff is Aegon.  But he must surely be asking why the Golden Company (a Blackfyre loyalists sellsword company) would support a Targaryen?  Likewise, Strickland and the men of the company must surely ask why Jon Connington would help a Blackfyre take a throne that belonged to the Targaryens.  Furthermore why would the Golden Company agree to marry their Blackfyre prince to a Targaryen?  I think the answer can be summed up with a quote from Illyrio, "black or red, a dragon is still a dragon". 

The GC is tired and they want to go home.  They will back any true dragon who can bring them home and return their lands.  I no longer believe that Griff has to be a Blackfyre to get the support of the company. 

Daenerys, Young Griff, and Stannis can get along just fine.  Let me explain.  I think most of the confusion comes from the House of the Undying visions.

  • Treasons and Lies are separate.  The perps who commit treason will get fed to the flames.  MMD was #1.  So #2 and #3 perps will get the same punishment.  I bet they won't have the nerve to do it again.
  • I believe Dany is Azor Ahai.  But it doesn't mean she will hold it against Stannis for believing he's Azor Ahai.  He's a victim of the lie and might be relieved to learn that he isn't Azor.  Mellisandre made an honest mistake.  Dany will slay the lie but not the man.  Stannis is a man who believes in following the rules.  It is not out of the question for Stannis to willingly give up his claim to the throne after he meets Dany and her dragons.  I believe Stannis and Dany will meet.  He will not die in the battle of ice. 
  • Aegon is the mummer's dragon.  There is a lie in his background.  He's not the true Aegon but it's still possible for him to be a son of Rhaegar.  See the videos mentioned above for a good explanation.  Dany can slay the lie without having to slay the man.  Aegon may be resistant at first but dragons have a way of persuading people.  Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's family shortly after the battle of the trident.  Proof of that should be enough to convince Aegon. R+L=A makes Aegon a bastard.   I can see a marriage between Dany and a legitimized Aegon.  They could both get what they want.
  • Blackfyre, the VS sword of House Targaryen will make an appearance.  Aegon is the most probable person to carry the blade to battle.
  • Darksister.  It's funny, the last person to carry Darksister is the albino brother. 
  • Dawn is a one-of-a-kind sword whose history is shrouded with mystery.  The sword could be his if Jon is a Dayne.  He may have to stick it in Arya though.
  • The dead direwolf was a warning sent to the Starks.  Don't join with the Baratheons.  Just what if Lyanna was given the same warning and she believed.  Arya and Gendry may fail to understand this warning.  A marriage between the two could lead to problems.  Besides, I think Arya and Jon belong together.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

 

I only watched parts of some of their videos of "clarifications."  They tend to cherry pick to help support their "clarifications"

If Arthur Dayne is alive then what is the point of even having Jon around? IF Jon was Ned's and Ashara's true born son then Jon is a Stark not a Dayne he has no rights to the sword. Edric Dayne is the only one who could lay claim to it. Also Jon is nowhere near good enough of a swordsman to earn the title of Sword of the Morning even if he was a Dayne, which he will never be unless he's the legitimate son of a male Dayne.

If Jon is at the Wall with his "uncle" and "twin sister Val" why does no one tell him who they are? What harm would there be in this? Jon has had to sit at the Wall and hear about all his Stark siblings dying and disappearing. It's cruel to think Uncle Arthur/Mance Rayder and his twin sister Val wouldn't reveal themselves after Jon thinks he's whole family has been taken out. On top of that Jon seems to be into Val and neither she nor Tormund discourage it. Why does Tormund/Oswell Went tell Jon he should steal Val when he knows they are twins? Why does Stannis want Jon to marry his twin sister?

There are fun theroies I guess I buy B+A=J before N+A=J

Also wanted to add. Neither Jon Connington or Aegon have to know he's a Blackfyre. He can be one with them both believing he's Rhaegar's. Jon Con was handed a baby that he was told was Rhaegar's.

Edited by Ralphis Baratheon

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

which he will never be unless he's the legitimate son of a male Dayne.

In Dorne women have the same right with men. So if Ashara's son proved to be worthy he couild had been the next Sword of the Morning. Not that I believe that Ashara is Jon's mother.

Jon Connington support a Blackfyre?  He would not.

You mean if he knew that Aegon was a Blackfyre. There is no reason why he should knew it.

Connington believes Griff is Aegon. 

Actually he seems to have some subconscious doubts. 

I have spent this evening watching "Order of the Greenhand" videos

Even Preston Jacobs' What you are missing series would had been much more entertaining.

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort

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7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

In Dorne women have the same right with men. So if Ashara's son proved to be worthy he couild had been the next Sword of the Morning. Not that I believe that Ashara is Jon's mother.

Even if he bears the last name Stark and didn't spend anytime at Starfall other then being born there? I always imagined that the masters at arms at Starfall had some influences on whether someone of the House they served was worthy of carrying Dawn as silly as that might sound. Who judges exactly who can be a Sword of the Morning anyway?

Also isn't being a Knight a prerequisites in order to be a Sword of the Morning? Jon's not a Knight and I don't think he'd except if someone offered to Knight him as he is a strong follower of the Old Gods. I know other Northerners who follow the Old Gods have been Knights but it doesn't seem typical especially for Starks or a son of a Stark.

 

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Posted (edited)

13 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Even if he bears the last name Stark and didn't spend anytime at Starfall other then being born there? I always imagined that the masters at arms at Starfall had some influences on whether someone of the House they served was worthy of carrying Dawn as silly as that might sound. 

It would seem that houses can change and someone can take his mothers inheritage.

13 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Who judges exactly who can be a Sword of the Morning anyway?

His actions and his talent.

13 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Also isn't being a Knight a prerequisites in order to be a Sword of the Morning?

That would be the only obstacle but after all the Dayne are a First Men house and we already have examples of people taking a place which only a Kinght could take.

but it doesn't seem typical especially for Starks or a son of a Stark.

Dawn isn't a typical sword and the Sword of the Morning isn't a typical title.

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort

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2 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

You mean if he knew that Aegon was a Blackfyre. There is no reason why he should knew it.

I think the real question here is. For us to believe Aegon is a Blackfyre we'd have to dismiss every single sentence that Varys and Illiryio has spoken about him being a Targ. And even so, It'd be a stretch so big to make him a Blackfyre. He'd have to be son of Illiryo (and have the same age as a big convenience). Illiryo would have to marry a Blackfyre (since there's no more male blackfyres prior to aegon's birth) and so on. A much more complicated "plan" would have to be true for this theory to be right. I think the real meaning of the mummer dragon is that he's being controlled by Varys and Mopatis for their own gain (what gain is it, we don't know yet) and daenerys has to kill the lie(him being controlled) in order for Aegon to become a real dragon like her, free of strings and with a real prorpose.

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2 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

For us to believe Aegon is a Blackfyre we'd have to dismiss every single sentence that Varys and Illiryio has spoken about him being a Targ.

Actually Varys never said that he is a Targ and neither is Illyrio iirc. 

5 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

(and have the same age as a big convenience).

If Aegon was real he would had been 18, Tyrion however thinks he is 15-16. No one knows for sure how old Aegon is.

6 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

And even so, It'd be a stretch so big to make him a Blackfyre.

I think that he is a BrightFyre actually.

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3 minutes ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Actually Varys never said that he is a Targ and neither is Illyrio iirc. 

They had to say it at least for Griff.

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1 minute ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

They had to say it at least for Griff.

I meant to "us". 

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On 4/11/2017 at 11:02 PM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Young Griff is not a blackfyre

I have spent this evening watching "Order of the Greenhand" videos based on the recommendations from this very forum.  While I am not fully convinced of their two main theories regarding the parents of Young Griff, I will admit that I am more open to this idea.  I, however, am convinced that Jon's parents are not Rhaegar and Lyanna.  I was actually a critic of RLJ so it wasn't hard for OftG to convince me. 

I like their videos but Mance is not Rhaegar.

Why would Jon Connington support a Blackfyre?  He would not.  He loved Rhaegar and that love would extend to Rhaegar's son.  Connington believes Griff is Aegon.  But he must surely be asking why the Golden Company (a Blackfyre loyalists sellsword company) would support a Targaryen?  Likewise, Strickland and the men of the company must surely ask why Jon Connington would help a Blackfyre take a throne that belonged to the Targaryens.  Furthermore why would the Golden Company agree to marry their Blackfyre prince to a Targaryen?  I think the answer can be summed up with a quote from Illyrio, "black or red, a dragon is still a dragon". 

The GC is tired and they want to go home.  They will back any true dragon who can bring them home and return their lands.  I no longer believe that Griff has to be a Blackfyre to get the support of the company. 

Sure, why not back any dragon who can take them home.  Makes sense to me.

Daenerys, Young Griff, and Stannis can get along just fine.  Let me explain.  I think most of the confusion comes from the House of the Undying visions.

  • Treasons and Lies are separate.  The perps who commit treason will get fed to the flames.  MMD was #1.  So #2 and #3 perps will get the same punishment.  I bet they won't have the nerve to do it again. 
  • I believe Dany is Azor Ahai.  But it doesn't mean she will hold it against Stannis for believing he's Azor Ahai.  He's a victim of the lie and might be relieved to learn that he isn't Azor.  Mellisandre made an honest mistake.  Dany will slay the lie but not the man.  Stannis is a man who believes in following the rules.  It is not out of the question for Stannis to willingly give up his claim to the throne after he meets Dany and her dragons.  I believe Stannis and Dany will meet.  He will not die in the battle of ice. 
  • Aegon is the mummer's dragon.  There is a lie in his background.  He's not the true Aegon but it's still possible for him to be a son of Rhaegar.  See the videos mentioned above for a good explanation.  Dany can slay the lie without having to slay the man.  Aegon may be resistant at first but dragons have a way of persuading people.  Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's family shortly after the battle of the trident.  Proof of that should be enough to convince Aegon. R+L=A makes Aegon a bastard.   I can see a marriage between Dany and a legitimized Aegon.  They could both get what they want.

Good analysis. Stannis would have to be alive for Dany to expose the lie.  They will have to meet in person for Stannis to see the real Azor Ahai.  

 

 

 

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OP 

I have to disagree on Griff not being a Blackfyre.  We have 3 prequel books out that all lead to the Blackfyre Rebellion I just don't see the point if not for a Blackfyre reveal.

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1 hour ago, Daemon Blackfyre IV said:

OP 

I have to disagree on Griff not being a Blackfyre.  We have 3 prequel books out that all lead to the Blackfyre Rebellion I just don't see the point if not for a Blackfyre reveal.

The Blackfyres are the main antagonists in the D&E tales.  It would not surprise me if their role in the plot ended when Barristan slew the last of the male Blackfyres.

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On 4/11/2017 at 11:02 PM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Darksister.  It's funny, the last person to carry Darksister is the albino brother. 

indeed it is

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On 2017-04-12 at 5:02 AM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Young Griff is not a blackfyre

I have spent this evening watching "Order of the Greenhand" videos based on the recommendations from this very forum.  While I am not fully convinced of their two main theories regarding the parents of Young Griff, I will admit that I am more open to this idea.  I, however, am convinced that Jon's parents are not Rhaegar and Lyanna.  I was actually a critic of RLJ so it wasn't hard for OftG to convince me. 

Why would Jon Connington support a Blackfyre?  He would not.  He loved Rhaegar and that love would extend to Rhaegar's son.  Connington believes Griff is Aegon.  But he must surely be asking why the Golden Company (a Blackfyre loyalists sellsword company) would support a Targaryen?  Likewise, Strickland and the men of the company must surely ask why Jon Connington would help a Blackfyre take a throne that belonged to the Targaryens.  Furthermore why would the Golden Company agree to marry their Blackfyre prince to a Targaryen?  I think the answer can be summed up with a quote from Illyrio, "black or red, a dragon is still a dragon". 

The GC is tired and they want to go home.  They will back any true dragon who can bring them home and return their lands.  I no longer believe that Griff has to be a Blackfyre to get the support of the company. 

Daenerys, Young Griff, and Stannis can get along just fine.  Let me explain.  I think most of the confusion comes from the House of the Undying visions.

  • Treasons and Lies are separate.  The perps who commit treason will get fed to the flames.  MMD was #1.  So #2 and #3 perps will get the same punishment.  I bet they won't have the nerve to do it again.
  • I believe Dany is Azor Ahai.  But it doesn't mean she will hold it against Stannis for believing he's Azor Ahai.  He's a victim of the lie and might be relieved to learn that he isn't Azor.  Mellisandre made an honest mistake.  Dany will slay the lie but not the man.  Stannis is a man who believes in following the rules.  It is not out of the question for Stannis to willingly give up his claim to the throne after he meets Dany and her dragons.  I believe Stannis and Dany will meet.  He will not die in the battle of ice. 
  • Aegon is the mummer's dragon.  There is a lie in his background.  He's not the true Aegon but it's still possible for him to be a son of Rhaegar.  See the videos mentioned above for a good explanation.  Dany can slay the lie without having to slay the man.  Aegon may be resistant at first but dragons have a way of persuading people.  Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's family shortly after the battle of the trident.  Proof of that should be enough to convince Aegon. R+L=A makes Aegon a bastard.   I can see a marriage between Dany and a legitimized Aegon.  They could both get what they want.
  • Blackfyre, the VS sword of House Targaryen will make an appearance.  Aegon is the most probable person to carry the blade to battle.
  • Darksister.  It's funny, the last person to carry Darksister is the albino brother. 
  • Dawn is a one-of-a-kind sword whose history is shrouded with mystery.  The sword could be his if Jon is a Dayne.  He may have to stick it in Arya though.
  • The dead direwolf was a warning sent to the Starks.  Don't join with the Baratheons.  Just what if Lyanna was given the same warning and she believed.  Arya and Gendry may fail to understand this warning.  A marriage between the two could lead to problems.  Besides, I think Arya and Jon belong together.

 

 

Definatly the best theory on the subject. Too add to that.

Why would Varys be such a Targaryen loyalist if he is a Blackfyre he would hate them but he supports the Targaryen's. 

Also it seems to easy to say that he is a Blackfyre but it is uncharacteristic of George if he would be a Blackfyre.

 

Also we hear the sentence fatheräs son quite often and Aegon is pretty much identical to Rhaegar but he has a preference for fighting where as Rhaegar had a preference for music.

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On 4/11/2017 at 11:02 PM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Daenerys, Young Griff, and Stannis can get along just fine.

I don't see why not.  Getting along doesn't mean they have to like each other.  They just have to work together.  

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On 17/4/2017 at 2:52 PM, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Why would Varys be such a Targaryen loyalist

Is he a Targaryen loyalist tho?

On 17/4/2017 at 2:52 PM, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Aegon is pretty much identical to Rhaegar

How?

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It is not out of the question for Stannis to willingly give up his claim to the throne after he meets Dany and her dragons.

Imo there is a lot of wishful thinking in the OP (and why would Jon need three swords?), but I agree to this. Stubborn Stannis is indeed one of the few people I can imagine abdicating to someone he sees as legitimate.

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2 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Is he a Targaryen loyalist tho?

How?

Varys begged Aerys not to open city gates for one.

Aegon is so beautiful he can have any girl in the world like his dad.

He is perfect and good at everything he does like his dad.

He is well liked by everyone like his dad. 

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Who will use the v/s swords in this hypothetical case?

  1. Blackfyre - Griff/Aegon
  2. Darksister - This is an interesting puzzle.  I doubt it's Arya.  She's too small and likely to remain small even for a woman to wield this type of weapon.  Needle is the right blade for Arya.  Dany is a good candidate if she decides to take up the sword.  Tyrion, maybe.  If he can use an axe, why not a sword?  He doesn't have to be good, although this blade should be carried by someone competent.  
  3. Longclaw - May go back to Jorah.
  4. Dawn - Jon in this hypothetical case, if Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara.  
  5. Oathkeeper - Brienne
  6. Widow's Wail - One of the sand snakes?  
  7. Brightroar - If found, maybe Lancel.

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4 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Varys begged Aerys not to open city gates for one.

He also was whispering in Aerys' ear to turn him against the rest of his family.

4 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Aegon is so beautiful he can have any girl in the world like his dad.

I don't recall that. But being beautiful is a Valyrian trait not Rhaegar's trait.

4 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

He is perfect and good at everything he does like his dad.

How do you know that?

4 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

He is well liked by everyone like his dad. 

You mean by the people around him which PoVs we don't have?

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