300 H&H Magnum

Daenerys, Young Griff, and Stannis

35 posts in this topic

20 minutes ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

He also was whispering in Aerys' ear to turn him against the rest of his family.

I don't recall that. But being beautiful is a Valyrian trait not Rhaegar's trait.

How do you know that?

You mean by the people around him which PoVs we don't have?

There is a Tyrion quote with him saying Aegon could have any girl in the world because he is so beautiful. Cersei says multiple times how damn beautiful Rhaegar Targaryen was. 

Young Griff is well educated and intelligent, speaking several languages, and is well versed in history. He speaks the Common Tongue as a native speaker. He is fluent in High Valyrian, in the Bastard Valyrian dialects of Pentos, Tyrosh, Myr, and Lys, and in the trade talk. He is a novice at speaking the dialect of Volantis, only familiar with a few of its words. The dialect of Meereen, whose terms derive from both Valyrian and Ghiscari, gives him trouble.[34] He has some training in mathematics, with a decent knowledge of sums and a limited understanding of geometry. He also has been trained in songs. Tyrion notes that Young Griff is more learned than "half the lords in Westeros".[34] He is a good fighter.

Since he is so perfect people are naturally drawn to him and he manages to turn around and rally the Golden Company in a improvised speech. 

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Posted (edited)

22 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

There is a Tyrion quote with him saying Aegon could have any girl in the world because he is so beautiful. Cersei says multiple times how damn beautiful Rhaegar Targaryen was. 

Again, that is the Valyrian traits. Rhaegar wasn't the only one. Lys is full with people looking like Targ.

22 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Since he is so perfect people are naturally drawn to him and he manages to turn around and rally the Golden Company in a improvised speech. 

He already had the GC, others like Varys and Illyrio had done this for him. There is no proof that he is liked by other than his people. Heck we don't know if they liked him since we don't have their PoVs.

Edited by The Doctor's Consort

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3 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Again, that is the Valyrian traits. Rhaegar wasn't the only one. Lys is full with people looking like Targ.

He already had the GC, others like Varys and Illyrio had done this for him. There is no proof that he is liked by other than his people. Heck we don't know if they liked him since we don't have their PoVs.

No there are plenty of ugly targaryens Rhaegar and Aegon are definatly more beautiful than average.

The Golden Company seemed pretty unmotivated and low energy when they were introduced to Aegon and at the end of his speech the men were flashing their boobs to him in excitment.

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Posted (edited)

10 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

No there are plenty of ugly targaryens 

Plenty of ugly Targs? 

10 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Rhaegar and Aegon are definatly more beautiful than average.

More beautiful than average Valyrian? I am not sure where you read that.

10 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

The Golden Company seemed pretty unmotivated and low energy when they were introduced to Aegon and at the end of his speech the men were flashing their boobs to him in excitment.

Yet we know that they were already his men since the beginning of the book.

Edited by The Doctor's Consort

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Just now, The Doctor's Consort said:

Plenty of ugly Targs? 

 

More beautiful than average Valyrian? I am not sure where you read that.

Yet we know that they were already his men since the beginning of the book.

Jesus christ have you read the books? It is so extremely difficult to text with you. Im actually curious if you have read the books for real. You don't think Rhaegar was beautiful or talented and you dont think aegon is beautiful and talented. I dont know how to talk with you.

Would you say that women throw themselves at Jaherys, Aerys, Daeron, Baelor, Jaehaerys, Aenys and Viserys??? Whilst they might not be ugly they defintatly don't arouse any women on sight.

Sure but it seemed like the men were on the verge of quiting and that they needed a cool speech.

 

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Varys begged Aerys not to open city gates for one.

Varys would rather have the Mad King Aerys in power still, so that the realm stays divided so that when another Blackfyre Rebellion comes many of the high lords will side with the Blackfyes over the "Mad King". Hell Robert Baratheon isn't even a full-Targaryen and half the realm sided with him. If Robert Baratheon was to take over he'd unite the realm (which he did) which would not end well for the Blackfyres if they were to cross the narrow sea again. Hell Varys was fueling Aerys' paranoia and was creating a rift between Rhaegar & Aerys before the Rebellion. Varys wanted Rhaegar gone because he was well liked and would unite the realm once Aerys died. Hell even Tywin liked Rhaegar and was willing to leave Aerys for dead during the defiance of Duskendale in favor of Rhaegar taking over.

Rhaegar or Robert = Stable Realm

Aerys = Unstable Realm

 

The whole point of Daenerys marrying Drogo was so that Viserys & Drogo would go to Westeros and reek havoc, making the realm unstable so that when the noble "Aegon Targaryen" comes across as everybodies' savior they'll flock to him. Varys & Illyrio don't give a shit about Targaryens or they wouldn't be sending Daenerys & Viserys to almost certain death.

Edited by Adam_Up_Bxtch

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5 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Varys would rather have the Mad King Aerys in power still, so that the realm stays divided so that when another Blackfyre Rebellion comes many of the high lords will side with the Blackfyes over the "Mad King". If Robert Baratheon was to take over he'd unite the realm (which he did) which would not end well for the Blackfyres if they were to cross the narrow sea again. Hell Varys was fueling Aerys' paranoia and was creating a rift between Rhaegar & Aerys before the Rebellion. Varys wanted Rhaegar gone because he was well liked and would unite the realm once Aerys died. Hell even Tywin liked Rhaegar and was willing to leave Aerys for dead during the defiance of Duskendale in favor of Rhaegar taking over.

Rhaegar or Robert = Stable Realm

Aerys = Unstable Realm

 

The whole point of Daenerys marrying Drogo was so that Viserys & Drogo would go to Westeros and reek havoc, making the realm unstable so that when the noble "Aegon Targaryen" comes across as everybodies' savior they'll flock to him. Varys & Illyrio don't give a shit about Targaryens or they wouldn't be sending Daenerys & Viserys to almost certain death.

Im not quite sure what Varys motives are but i am quite confident Aegon is a legit Targaryen born of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Very confident actually.

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14 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Jesus christ have you read the books?

Of course not. When someone doesn't agree with you then he hasn't read the books.

14 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

You don't think Rhaegar was beautiful or talented and you dont think aegon is beautiful and talented. 

Beautiful yes. More beautiful than the other Valyrians? No. Talented at what? Rhaegar was good at music and that is all and Aegon has proved to be learned not talented.

14 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Whilst they might not be ugly they defintatly don't arouse any women on sight.

How do you know that?

14 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Sure but it seemed like the men were on the verge of quiting and that they needed a cool speech.

Heck no. Someone doesn't built an invasion for so many years and left it on a boy who have never been tested. This would had been a rookie mistake.

14 hours ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Varys & Illyrio don't give a shit about Targaryens or they wouldn't be sending Daenerys & Viserys to almost certain death.

Exactly. They use them but they don't care about them.

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On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 0:22 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

The Blackfyres are the main antagonists in the D&E tales.  It would not surprise me if their role in the plot ended when Barristan slew the last of the male Blackfyres.

All stories will lead to the main one that I am convinced of. Each small character can most likely be related to an old story maybe even Petyr Baelish but most definitely Varys.

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On 12/04/2017 at 3:02 PM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Why would Jon Connington support a Blackfyre?  He would not.  He loved Rhaegar and that love would extend to Rhaegar's son.  Connington believes Griff is Aegon.  But he must surely be asking why the Golden Company (a Blackfyre loyalists sellsword company) would support a Targaryen?  Likewise, Strickland and the men of the company must surely ask why Jon Connington would help a Blackfyre take a throne that belonged to the Targaryens.  Furthermore why would the Golden Company agree to marry their Blackfyre prince to a Targaryen?  I think the answer can be summed up with a quote from Illyrio, "black or red, a dragon is still a dragon". 

The GC is tired and they want to go home.  They will back any true dragon who can bring them home and return their lands.  I no longer believe that Griff has to be a Blackfyre to get the support of the company. 

I agree with all of this, but it doesn't disprove the fAegon theory. The argument for that theory is not that the GC would never ally with a Targ (they were waiting for Dany AND Aegon, after all), but that their following Young Griff symbolically hints at either YG's true heritage or Varys' true loyalties.

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1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I agree with all of this, but it doesn't disprove the fAegon theory. The argument for that theory is not that the GC would never ally with a Targ (they were waiting for Dany AND Aegon, after all), but that their following Young Griff symbolically hints at either YG's true heritage or Varys' true loyalties.

Or they want to bond the two branches of House Targaryen and take back the kingdom from what they see as usurpers.  Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon.  The Bf fought the Targaryens and vice-versa, but a dragon is still a dragon.  Any dragon is preferable to the stag, the wolf, and the damn trout!  How much pride can a nation have with a trout on its flag, for crying out loud! 

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4 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Or they want to bond the two branches of House Targaryen and take back the kingdom from what they see as usurpers.  Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon.  The Bf fought the Targaryens and vice-versa, but a dragon is still a dragon.  Any dragon is preferable to the stag, the wolf, and the damn trout!  How much pride can a nation have with a trout on its flag, for crying out loud! 

Trouts are good swimmers.

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The appeal of the Blackfyre theories - for me - is that they manage to explain Varys' and Illyrio's motivations.

I don't claim to really know whether Aegon is real or not or that there is watertight proof either way. There isn't in my opinion. Also I want to point out that I tended to think Aegon is real (and I am still not ruling that out). However there are enough hints in the story to at least let the one or other of the Backfyre theories seem possible.

Looking at the big picture (overall story) and asking myself which way (Aegon = real or Aegon = Blackfyre) would tie up the most loose ends I think it is plain that a Blackfyre Aegon would fill more holes:

- it neatly explains Varys' and Illyrio's behavior. Which a real Aegon does not as well.

Because if Aegon was real we would have to believe that Varys and Illyrio actually want to help the Targaryens out of the goodness of their hearts (like in the TV show). Call me a cynic but I can't quite picture that. Obviously I can't rule it out but are we really to believe that the two are so loyal to the Mad King that they plot for 15 or so years after his death to get his heir back onto the throne?

Even if we believed they were this loyal there are loose ends which make their behaviour look strange in this context:

If they wanted to help the Targaryens in the first place, why did they not bring Rhaegar on the throne? That would seem like the obvious choice. But they did not. On the contrary: Varys seems to have undermined Rhaegar's position at court.

And why plunge Westeros into yet another civil war with all the death and desperation that entails (and with winter coming ontop of it) when there is nothing personal for them to gain in it? Why supplant Robert with Aegon or Tommen with Aegon through a heap of blood and death? How is that better for anybody? And the only motive being loyalty to a long-dead king who was mad and unfit to rule in the first place and who more than deserved to be gotten rid of? That sounds a little weird.

Ontop of that it does not really fit the backstory we get told about Varys and Illyrio. Supposedly they were rogues who specilialized on break-ins, first stealing valuables and later secrets and dealing in them. Are we to believe such persons are predisposed to enormously long-term loyalty coupled with no real gain for themselves?

Make Aegon a Blackfyre and Illyrio and/or Serra and/or Varys Blackfyres and all this suddenly ties up.

It gives them personal motivations. Gives them reason for long-term planning. Explains why they definitely would not have wanted to support Rhaegar. And why they risk causing enormous bloodshed all over the kingdoms to finally get what all the Blackfyres always wanted.

- Also the inclusion of Bloodraven in the story becomes more meaningful if the Blackfyres are still around.

In Bittersteel's place would be Varys and Illyrio. But unbeknownst to them their old antagonist would still be there. The old conflict would still be ongoing and it would tie in with Dunk and Egg.

Also it adds more possibilities for drama between the remaining Targs (I am including any possible Blackfyres in the term Targ here because really that's what they would be). I think an option that opens up more story possibilities (contrary to not opening up any) is more likely to be chosen by any author.

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

On 12.04.2017 at 0:51 PM, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I think the real question here is. For us to believe Aegon is a Blackfyre we'd have to dismiss every single sentence that Varys and Illiryio has spoken about him being a Targ.

Varys and... Illyrio? Illyrio spoke very little about Young Griff, and of him being a Targaryen - never. The reveal took place after leaving Illyrio's manse. So, for him, "every single sentence" is, literally, zero. Which isn't all that much.

As for "we'd have to assume Varys told a lie" - well, I'm at peace with the thought. He's a spymaster by trade, for gods' sake.

Quote

And even so, It'd be a stretch so big to make him a Blackfyre. He'd have to be son of Illiryo (and have the same age as a big convenience). Illiryo would have to marry a Blackfyre (since there's no more male blackfyres prior to aegon's birth) and so on.

Sorry, what would be in place of "and so on"? Because for me it looks like "and that's it". Illyrio marries a Blackfyre girl (why the hell did the text insist that House Blackfyre was extinguished in the male line? just a figure of speech?), they have a son, and here we are. Not all that convoluted.

Do you propose a simpler theory? I mean, one that doesn't involve Varys finding in the Flea Bottom a dead ringer for little Prince Aegon, someone so similar that the subterfuge was going to fool the entire court, including the royal family's personal physician?

Edited by Ferocious Veldt Roarer

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12 hours ago, Amris said:

The appeal of the Blackfyre theories - for me - is that they manage to explain Varys' and Illyrio's motivations.

I don't claim to really know whether Aegon is real or not or that there is watertight proof either way. There isn't in my opinion. Also I want to point out that I tended to think Aegon is real (and I am still not ruling that out). However there are enough hints in the story to at least let the one or other of the Backfyre theories seem possible.

Looking at the big picture (overall story) and asking myself which way (Aegon = real or Aegon = Blackfyre) would tie up the most loose ends I think it is plain that a Blackfyre Aegon would fill more holes:

- it neatly explains Varys' and Illyrio's behavior. Which a real Aegon does not as well.

Because if Aegon was real we would have to believe that Varys and Illyrio actually want to help the Targaryens out of the goodness of their hearts (like in the TV show). Call me a cynic but I can't quite picture that. Obviously I can't rule it out but are we really to believe that the two are so loyal to the Mad King that they plot for 15 or so years after his death to get his heir back onto the throne?

Even if we believed they were this loyal there are loose ends which make their behaviour look strange in this context:

If they wanted to help the Targaryens in the first place, why did they not bring Rhaegar on the throne? That would seem like the obvious choice. But they did not. On the contrary: Varys seems to have undermined Rhaegar's position at court.

And why plunge Westeros into yet another civil war with all the death and desperation that entails (and with winter coming ontop of it) when there is nothing personal for them to gain in it? Why supplant Robert with Aegon or Tommen with Aegon through a heap of blood and death? How is that better for anybody? And the only motive being loyalty to a long-dead king who was mad and unfit to rule in the first place and who more than deserved to be gotten rid of? That sounds a little weird.

Ontop of that it does not really fit the backstory we get told about Varys and Illyrio. Supposedly they were rogues who specilialized on break-ins, first stealing valuables and later secrets and dealing in them. Are we to believe such persons are predisposed to enormously long-term loyalty coupled with no real gain for themselves?

Make Aegon a Blackfyre and Illyrio and/or Serra and/or Varys Blackfyres and all this suddenly ties up.

It gives them personal motivations. Gives them reason for long-term planning. Explains why they definitely would not have wanted to support Rhaegar. And why they risk causing enormous bloodshed all over the kingdoms to finally get what all the Blackfyres always wanted.

- Also the inclusion of Bloodraven in the story becomes more meaningful if the Blackfyres are still around.

In Bittersteel's place would be Varys and Illyrio. But unbeknownst to them their old antagonist would still be there. The old conflict would still be ongoing and it would tie in with Dunk and Egg.

Also it adds more possibilities for drama between the remaining Targs (I am including any possible Blackfyres in the term Targ here because really that's what they would be). I think an option that opens up more story possibilities (contrary to not opening up any) is more likely to be chosen by any author.

This. It connects all those various hints and seemingly unnecessary infodumps on the Blackfyres, and provides explanation for Varys and Illyrio's game.

 

 

BTW, what is it with that Order of the Green Hand, some new fad? They even make Preston Jacobs look reasonable.

 

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