Red wedding and Red viper

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Oberyn Martell was guest of Lannisters during Joffrey's wedding. But it didn't stop him from poisoning Tywin Lannister. It is like reverse "Red Wedding". And just Gods of Westeros punished him with meaningless death.

Some can say that he revenged Elia's death so it is different from Walder Frey. But reason is that Oberyn is fun and we want to see him like that. Let's imagine that before killing Robb Stark Walder Frey tells him: You promised me. You lied to me. You dishonored me.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

Proof that he poisoned Tywin, please.

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

Much more likely it was Varys.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

20 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Proof that he poisoned Tywin, please.

 

 

There are many indications in the book.

Quote

Lord Tywin’s face was so dark that for half a heartbeat Tyrion wondered if he’d drunk some poisoned wine as well.

 

What did you think will happen after Mountain's confession? No one could arrest Tywin Lannister. Oberyn's only chance was poison.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

14 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Much more likely it was Varys.

 

Varys can be Doran's friend in King's Landing since both support Targaryens. Oberyn did it himself or with little birds does not matter.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

You provided one quote from the book and even so, Tywin was taking a very deep shit. It could be anything. And other thing, why Oberyn? It could be anyone. LF, Varys, a FM hired from someone, etc.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

13 minutes ago, Brandon Baratheon said:

 

What did you think will happen after Mountain's confession? No one could arrest Tywin Lannister. Oberyn's only chance was poison.

Why would anyone think to arrest Tywin after The Mountain's confession? The Mountain confessed to killing Elia and Aegon himself, he never implied Tywin or anyone else was complicit in his actions.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

Just now, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Why would anyone think to arrest Tywin after The Mountain's confession? The Mountain confessed to killing Elia and Aegon himself, he never implied Tywin or anyone else was complicit in his actions.

That as well. @Brandon Baratheon I try to defend you when you come here and make this types of thread. But it's getting very tiring. You have all the rights to speak your mind, but AT LEAST provide us with some insights, not just your opinion. You can make a "crackpot" thread and talk about all the shit you want. But keep in mind that people don't seem to like it very much when you're doing this LITERALLY every single thread. It's not the first time I've seen a thread of yours who has no quotes, no thought, no insights, no purpose, no nothing. Sorry if I'm being rude, but you're here to add value not decrease it.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

8 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

That as well. @Brandon Baratheon I try to defend you when you come here and make this types of thread. But it's getting very tiring. You have all the rights to speak your mind, but AT LEAST provide us with some insights, not just your opinion. You can make a "crackpot" thread and talk about all the shit you want. But keep in mind that people don't seem to like it very much when you're doing this LITERALLY every single thread. It's not the first time I've seen a thread of yours who has no quotes, no thought, no insights, no purpose, no nothing. Sorry if I'm being rude, but you're here to add value not decrease it.

Well said. You should take these words to heart Brandon Stark. You don't want to keep going off half cocked like your namesake.
 

[aryagonnakill#2]

59 minutes ago, Brandon Baratheon said:

 

Varys can be Doran's friend in King's Landing since both support Targaryens. Oberyn did it himself or with little birds does not matter.

It's possible, but since varys and Ilyrio don't know about the marriage pact between Viserys and Arianne it seems unlikely.

We know Varys has the access, we also know he profited from Tywins death, and his statement to Kevan that someone somewhere would find a way to blame the Dornish suggests to me at least that framing the Dornish is something he has already tried to do. 

Oberyn is known for poisoning, it is inconceivable to me that Tywin would have accepted any food or beverage from Oberyn, especially since Tywin was the host and thus the one providing them.

[Adam Yozza]

1 hour ago, Brandon Baratheon said:

Oberyn Martell was guest of Lannisters during Joffrey's wedding. But it didn't stop him from poisoning Tywin Lannister. It is like reverse "Red Wedding". And just Gods of Westeros punished him with meaningless death.

Some can say that he revenged Elia's death so it is different from Walder Frey. But reason is that Oberyn is fun and we want to see him like that. Let's imagine that before killing Robb Stark Walder Frey tells him: You promised me. You lied to me. You dishonored me.

Murdering someone because of a broken promise is a little different than seeking revenge for the brutal murder of your sister and her two infant children.

Also, though I personally suspect he did too, there is no evidence from the text that would allow us to say that Oberyn poisoned Tywin as a statement of fact.

[Maxxine]

4 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Proof that he poisoned Tywin, please.

 

Fwiw, Oberyn poisoning Tywin is a pretty well-known theory that a lot of people believe. Unfortunately, there's not anything in the book that directly confirms it, but there are a lot of hints that lead to it being a  plausible theory. I don't have the books with me so I can't give exact quotes, but from memory the theory goes something like this: Oberyn is seeking revenge against everyone involved in Elia and her children's death including Tywin. He would never be able to fight Tywin like he did the Mountain so he went another route to get revenge on Tywin, so he somehow poisoned him. Tyrion finds Tywin on the toilet and when he kills the smell is seemingly very bad (as in worse than usually shit). Of course that could just be regular diarrhea or just because his bowels loosed when he died. But then the fact that his corpse smelled so bad and the smile that corpse makes is another indication that there may have been something wrong other than the fact that Tyrion killed. Even though we know corpses begin to smell and rigamortis can make things happen with a body, judging from everyone's reaction to the smell it indicates it's not normal. Also, in real life if you've ever been to a funeral, the body doesn't smell because steps are taken to prevent decay, which I think we can safely assume these steps are also taken in Westeros. We had Joffrey die prior and there was no indication that there was a smell and I believe Joffrey's was on display for a while too since he was a king. I think with all this, it's very plausible. It can't be stated as a fact and I don't think we'll ever get a confirmation in the books. But I actually believe it.

In regards to the OP, depending on you interpret guest right there would be no difference between Walder and Oberyn. As Bran says when he tells the Rat Cook story a man has every right to revenge, but not to break guest  right. So regardless of what the revenge was for, they both broke guest right. The only question I have is if Oberyn actually owed guest right to Tywin. Idk. 

[acwill07]

1 hour ago, Maxxine said:

Fwiw, Oberyn poisoning Tywin is a pretty well-known theory that a lot of people believe. Unfortunately, there's not anything in the book that directly confirms it, but there are a lot of hints that lead to it being a  plausible theory. I don't have the books with me so I can't give exact quotes, but from memory the theory goes something like this: Oberyn is seeking revenge against everyone involved in Elia and her children's death including Tywin. He would never be able to fight Tywin like he did the Mountain so he went another route to get revenge on Tywin, so he somehow poisoned him. Tyrion finds Tywin on the toilet and when he kills the smell is seemingly very bad (as in worse than usually shit). Of course that could just be regular diarrhea or just because his bowels loosed when he died. But then the fact that his corpse smelled so bad and the smile that corpse makes is another indication that there may have been something wrong other than the fact that Tyrion killed. Even though we know corpses begin to smell and rigamortis can make things happen with a body, judging from everyone's reaction to the smell it indicates it's not normal. Also, in real life if you've ever been to a funeral, the body doesn't smell because steps are taken to prevent decay, which I think we can safely assume these steps are also taken in Westeros. We had Joffrey die prior and there was no indication that there was a smell and I believe Joffrey's was on display for a while too since he was a king. I think with all this, it's very plausible. It can't be stated as a fact and I don't think we'll ever get a confirmation in the books. But I actually believe it.

In regards to the OP, depending on you interpret guest right there would be no difference between Walder and Oberyn. As Bran says when he tells the Rat Cook story a man has every right to revenge, but not to break guest  right. So regardless of what the revenge was for, they both broke guest right. The only question I have is if Oberyn actually owed guest right to Tywin. Idk. 

All of that is circumstantial.  It's possible that it's true but @Ser Loras The Gayis right, it can not be stated as fact, not by any stretch of the imagination.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

@Maxxine I'm not saying it's impossible. I was asking for proof because it's not the first time the OP comes here, spill a bunch of bullshit and leave his own post with half-baked crackpots. And I'm one of those people who believes Oberyn has poisoned Tywin. He didn't make any point with his statment, and when confronted he just never awsered. That's not the first time he did that.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

The gods of Westeros did not punish Oberyn with a meaningless death. He got a confession and he made certain that Gregor Clegane suffered in absolute agony while he died.

True he didn't get Tywin implicated as he wanted, but what Gregor did say was enough to prove that what happened to Elia and her children (possibly excepting Aegon) was not just some rumor from the war but an actual fact. That was the whole point of Oberyn's going to King's Landing. He wanted justice, and he got it. And he was quite willing to risk his own life to get it.

The Red Wedding was nothing like Oberyn's quest for justice. Robb didn't rape or murder anyone, or order his men to do that. Breaking a promise is not the same as brutally murdering women and children. War or no war, what Gregor and Lorch did was beyond unnecessary and was downright evil. You're essentially comparing apples to wildebeests here.

Also, Oberyn was not there just for Joffrey's wedding, so he was not a guest in the traditional sense. He was there to take up the place on the Small Council which had been offered to his brother, which gives him resident status. Any poisoning he did (aside from in Tyrion's TBC) would have been either before the wedding, or rather well after it, so he would not have had guest status while poisoning Tywin, if he did so. It's not apparent on the surface but thinking it through makes it pretty clear.

[Dorian Martell's son]

18 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

@Maxxine I'm not saying it's impossible. I was asking for proof because it's not the first time the OP comes here, spill a bunch of bullshit and leave his own post with half-baked crackpots. And I'm one of those people who believes Oberyn has poisoned Tywin. He didn't make any point with his statment, and when confronted he just never awsered. That's not the first time he did that.

the theory comes out of the time Tywin broke bread with Oberyn. It also would fit for Varys to use said poison to drive a wedge between the dornish and the other houses. 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

25 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

the theory comes out of the time Tywin broke bread with Oberyn. It also would fit for Varys to use said poison to drive a wedge between the dornish and the other houses. 

That would be a cool scheme

[Maxxine]

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The gods of Westeros did not punish Oberyn with a meaningless death. He got a confession and he made certain that Gregor Clegane suffered in absolute agony while he died.

True he didn't get Tywin implicated as he wanted, but what Gregor did say was enough to prove that what happened to Elia and her children (possibly excepting Aegon) was not just some rumor from the war but an actual fact. That was the whole point of Oberyn's going to King's Landing. He wanted justice, and he got it. And he was quite willing to risk his own life to get it.

The Red Wedding was nothing like Oberyn's quest for justice. Robb didn't rape or murder anyone, or order his men to do that. Breaking a promise is not the same as brutally murdering women and children. War or no war, what Gregor and Lorch did was beyond unnecessary and was downright evil. You're essentially comparing apples to wildebeests here.

Also, Oberyn was not there just for Joffrey's wedding, so he was not a guest in the traditional sense. He was there to take up the place on the Small Council which had been offered to his brother, which gives him resident status. Any poisoning he did (aside from in Tyrion's TBC) would have been either before the wedding, or rather well after it, so he would not have had guest status while poisoning Tywin, if he did so. It's not apparent on the surface but thinking it through makes it pretty clear.

I think this is the important part for the OP and the most unclear part. Was Oberyn a guest thus invoking guest right and, if so, would Tywin be protected by that guest right? Even though he was there under small council I would argue he was still a guest and protected by guest right because of the invitation. For instance, even though Myrcella technically lives in Dorne now I think she is still protected by guest right. I don't know if everyone who lives in a location is protected by guest right though or or just the lord or just the family. I would think it would at least be the family of the lord so Tywin would be protected.

I don't think the OP is comparing "apples to wildebeests" when it  comes to guest rights. From what we know in the story the reason for breaking guest right doesn't matter to the gods. Justified or not, breaking guest rights means being cursed. I think the OP makes a good point that we as readers gloss over Oberyn (assuming he did have guest right) because we like him more and he had was more justified in what he did (assuming he killed Tywin).

[Maxxine]

19 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

@Maxxine I'm not saying it's impossible. I was asking for proof because it's not the first time the OP comes here, spill a bunch of bullshit and leave his own post with half-baked crackpots. And I'm one of those people who believes Oberyn has poisoned Tywin. He didn't make any point with his statment, and when confronted he just never awsered. That's not the first time he did that.

I get it. I've seen a few of his threads and I agree, but I kinda felt like this one brought up a decent point. And Oberyn poisoning Tywin is such a well know theory, I don't fault him for not going into detail about it since it's been hashed out probably hundreds of times and most  people are aware it. Maybe he screwed up by presenting it as fact, but I thought the criticism on this thread was a bit harsh considering the context.  Plus I think the question of whether Oberyn broke guest right if he did poison Tywin is reasonable one that should illicit decent discussion. 

19 hours ago, acwill07 said:

All of that is circumstantial.  It's possible that it's true but @Ser Loras The Gayis right, it can not be stated as fact, not by any stretch of the imagination.

This is exactly what I said at the beginning and end of the first paragraph.

[Lord Wraith]

On 4/12/2017 at 4:47 PM, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Proof that he poisoned Tywin, please.

 

There are literally dozens of people who have written theories on this. With varying degrees of plausibility. Just google it.

I for one am pretty sure it happened.