Is the North suppose to be Ancient Germania?

[KarlDanski]

Hello.

I'm new to the forums, but my first post is about the North, Northerners, and the Old Gods. Is the North suppose to represent Ancient Germania during the Roman times, or at least loosely based off of them? The First Men, and Germanic People were both tribal, and nomadic people with the Germanic migrating everywhere from the Iberian Peninsula to Africa to Britain etc while the First Men migrated from Essos to Westeros. The first First Men kings have similarities to various Germanic tribes too like the Ryswells being comparable to the Batavi who were famed for their horsemanship, the Franks being comparable to the Gardeners, the Greyjoys being the Danes, the Starks being Saxons etc. There's even similarities with the Old Gods, because while the Old Gods are most likely based off of Druidry, the Germanic tribes too held trees sacred. A big example being Yggdrasil and Irminsul which were centers to Pagan belief. The use of Runes also lend credence to them with it being based off of Elder Futhark, at least that's what it looks like on the Royce coat of arms. The pagan Saxons in their wars with Charlemagne were the last pagans of Europe other than the Vikings, similar to how the North, before the unification was the last First Men kingdom other than the Ironborn, and had to fight religious wars with the Faith Militant. This is all opinionated, but does anyone else share the belief that the North is in large part based off of a mix of the Scots, Germans, and House York. The term used for the Teutones, "Furor Teutonicus", could even be used for the North as a whole like, "Fury of the Northerners", because the First Men were renowned for being ferocious. Anyways, this is the end of my post, but I seem to associate Germania with the North.

[Renly's Banana]

Yes and no. The North, like almost every part of Westeros and beyond, is taken from more than one source. I've always seen the North as northern parts of England throughout its history. Certain pagan parts of northern Europe, too.
It's like Dorne or the Ghiscari societies. They're a blend of different things from all over. 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

The series are based on the actual facts that happened between the 100 years war. (of course with some poetry license to make up dragons and insulied and etc). So it could be these people, but, in the context of the war.

[James Steller]

I thought the North is supposed to be part northern England, part Saxon, and part Scottish.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

5 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I thought the North is supposed to be part northern England, part Saxon, and part Scottish.

It's. But these people came from a lot of places haha

[Bael's Bastard]

I think they are certainly closest to Germanic peoples of different sorts, including Anglo-Saxons. Isn't Stark itself German?

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

The North is Scotland. The Wall is Hadrian`s Wall.

The 7 Kingdoms have a bit of everything. Andals - AngloSaxons. The Reach is similar to France. 

Dorne is a mix of Iberian + Moorish(rhoynar).

The Ironborn are just like Vikings and closer to Norse culture. raiding seasons. longboats etc.

[Lady White Wolf]

The Ironborn are a crappy version of Vikings though lol

[KarlDanski]

The Ironborn are basically Cthulhu, and his cult with long ships.

[Lion of the West]

Also the Norse were never the last pagans of Europe. That designation goes to the Lithuanians or more likely the Sami. The Norse were early late-term converts, but far from the last pagans. In fact as you probably know, the later Danes and Swedes were all to happy to go crusading on their eastern and pagan neighbors across the Baltic Sea, and I would think that the Norweigans also did some crusading.

[Ser Creep]

13 hours ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

The North is Scotland. The Wall is Hadrian`s Wall.

The 7 Kingdoms have a bit of everything. Andals - AngloSaxons. The Reach is similar to France. 

Dorne is a mix of Iberian + Moorish(rhoynar).

The Ironborn are just like Vikings and closer to Norse culture. raiding seasons. longboats etc.

Beyond The Wall would be Scotland. Not The North. 

[Canon Claude]

45 minutes ago, Ser Creep said:

Beyond The Wall would be Scotland. Not The North. 

That should be called half Scotland half northern Canada.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

Geographically, The North is the North of Engand and beyond the wall is Scotland. This is patently clear. Culturally.... It gets messy because there are families, events and customs all over Westeros inspired from all over Europe. For example, the Red Wedding takes place in the Riverlands, yet it was inspired by a piece of Scottish history. Even all the way South in Dorne, Ashara's 'suicide' is reminiscent of a legend from Scotland. I wish I could remember the name.... 

Both Tyrion's defense of KL and the invasion and then defense of Mereen borrow from real events in Constantinople. 
The 'others' are based on the Irish folklore of 'sidhe' (I might of spelled that wrong)
Stannis is based loosely on Edward I and Richard III....

There are literally hundreds of examples and by the end it becomes very clear that George wasn't carving up sections of his map and designating any location as an England or a France or wherever. 

ASOIAF is basically an amalgamation of historical events and legends.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

10 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

ASOIAF is basically an amalgamation of historical events and legends.

That.

[Lion of the West]

33 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

ASOIAF is basically an amalgamation of historical events and legends.

I agree entirely.

[Ydra Stark]

Ironborn = Vikings (Longboats, Raiding parties etc.) 

I'm from Holland, so the North kind of looks like the Frisians, they we're a kingdom North of the Saxon/Franks ! They we're eventually taken over by the Franks & later Holland but they kept there culture and beliefs, even to this day the people of Friesland (Frisia) still speak Frisian. 

[KarlDanski]

Even more so, I don't think that the North is based off of Scotland as much as it's suppose to be or at least Northumbria. A son of a high ranking house/tribe leads other houses/tribes in rebellion, and does successfully at first until he is killed by the political machinations of the people he is fighting / his own people. Arminius or Hermann the Cherusci is a famous Germanic folk hero who led his people in rebellion against the "southerners" who considered them "unwashed savages" in a "barren wasteland" of forests. He was killed by members of his own people even. Arminius had a brother who sided with the Romans, and married one which led to their kid leading the Cherusci tribe later. This was similar to what Tywin wanted to do with Sansa marrying Tyrion who's child would lead the House "Stark". Robert the Bruce succeeded in his rebellion where Arminius didn't. I don't know, I just see more Germanic/Germania in the North than Scottish.

[John Doe]

Not really- but in principle, yes, especially the Lands Beyond the Wall. They are inspired by pretty much every harsh, cold, poor and hostile backwater ever. Those are a reoccuring theme with old civilizations, not only in Europe, but also in China for example. 

 

[Orphalesion]

On 13/04/2017 at 1:03 AM, Renly's Banana said:

Yes and no. The North, like almost every part of Westeros and beyond, is taken from more than one source. I've always seen the North as northern parts of England throughout its history. Certain pagan parts of northern Europe, too.
It's like Dorne or the Ghiscari societies. They're a blend of different things from all over. 

^ This, Martin, like Tolkien copies a lot from history, but, like Tolkien he combines stuff together to creature unique cultures and peoples.

One reason why the North isn't "Ancient Germania" is that the North is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too technological advanced. They have sophisticated weapons, stone castles, lace, velvet, green houses, all sorts of stuff.

Another reason is that there wasn't really an "Ancient Germania", there were just the various Germanic and Proto-Germanic tribes living clustered in an area the Romans called "Germania" (basically "Land of the Germanic Tribes") at no point did they form any sort of Pan-Germanic union or anything that would have constituted an "Ancient Germania".

As others have written the North seem closer to Northern England and Scotland. The Celts held certain kinds of trees as holy as well, as did the Greeks, and the Slavs, and the Italics...a lot of pagan peoples thought certain kinds of trees were holy and the Old Gods are closer to Shamanistic Religions practiced by Uralic and Finnish people. As we know from the Romans the Germanic Tribes had fully personified gods.They weren't shamanistic or pantheistic.

There might be some parallels to some Germanic tribes because...well, the Anglo-Saxons were a Germanic Tribe and the Normans were basically an off-shot of the Vikings. So some cultural common ground would be expected.

16 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Also the Norse were never the last pagans of Europe. That designation goes to the Lithuanians or more likely the Sami. The Norse were early late-term converts, but far from the last pagans. In fact as you probably know, the later Danes and Swedes were all to happy to go crusading on their eastern and pagan neighbors across the Baltic Sea, and I would think that the Norweigans also did some crusading.

And this. and as I wrote both the believes of the Sami  resemble the Old Gods much, much more than the Ancient Germanic Beliefs with their boisterous, highly individual and definitely not nameless gods and goddesses. I sadly don't know enough about Lithuanian Paganism to tell what they believed in.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

Valaryia=Rome. A civilization that collapsed and reached heights that were not seen again for another 1000+ years.