A question for the Forum: A mere hard drive stacked with data, or a gateway to another 'time'(as the Greenseer sees it).

[Macgregor of the North]

With new book readers and forum lurkers stepping forward from the shadows all the time to share their ideas I thought I'd pose a wee question. 

It's part of a broader topic which never fails to show such a divide between forum members and can generate pretty spirited discussions. It's also probably my most favourite topic in the whole series.

What I want to focus on though, is one particular angle. If the discussion takes off and we explore deeper, so be it and im all good with that, but first I'd like to see the forums view on this question. 

Do you view the Weirwood tree network as a mere Hard drive where memories can be accessed and played back in the same fashion that we would press play on a video stored on our computers hard drive.

Or

Do you view the Weirwood tree network as a gateway that lets the Greenseer who slips the skin of the trees and roots view events in "time" as they happened in front of a specific Heart tree. 

Anybody who fancies a bite please come with evidence, quotes, SSM's, and your own good reason for what side of the fence you sit on. Before Winds drops, which really shouldn't be that long in the grand scale of life I wanna gauge where people are at on this one. 

Thanks.

[Renly's Banana]

Is it not both? 
Bloodraven specifically warns Bran against trying to communicate with what he's seeing, as they cannot talk back. He sees it as futile. In that sense, it is like watching a recording, a memory.
Bit it is more than just being a detached spectator. What they experience and see and feel is "real" to them. More real than a mere memory; in that sense, they are traveling through time. 

I wonder if it's possible to see past events through other things besides weirwood trees. Obviously nothing will be as old or as permanent as a regular weirwood tree, but maybe a particularly old animal or person? Maybe it is possible to communicate with the past then. Whether possible or not, something tells me that's a power Bloodraven won't be teaching Bran any time soon. 

[Macgregor of the North]

40 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Is it not both? 
Bloodraven specifically warns Bran against trying to communicate with what he's seeing, as they cannot talk back. He sees it as futile. In that sense, it is like watching a recording, a memory.
Bit it is more than just being a detached spectator. What they experience and see and feel is "real" to them. More real than a mere memory; in that sense, they are traveling through time. 

I wonder if it's possible to see past events through other things besides weirwood trees. Obviously nothing will be as old or as permanent as a regular weirwood tree, but maybe a particularly old animal or person? Maybe it is possible to communicate with the past then. Whether possible or not, something tells me that's a power Bloodraven won't be teaching Bran any time soon. 

You are correct in my opinion that it is like watching a recording, but it is not. Bran slips the skin of the trees like he does with Summer, and he is transported there and feels he is home. Time is not something the Weirwood tree network understands, "time" is all one thing on the grand scale to the Weirwood and the past present and future are all the same to it, just a series of events that have happened. 

And take Bloodraven, he has tried on at least three occasions to talk with who he sees. He was a man well full grown by the time he tried this so would understand easier than Bran, and would have had the singers there to explain to him that he was watching a simple tree "memory" (if he was)so he wouldn't have continued trying had he known this. He only stopped trying because his siblings never reacted to the whispers on the wind and the rustling of the leaves that his words and actions became in their "time". 

As to your other point, we know Bran will be able to "see well beyond the trees" at some stage. When this happens, he will literally seem like he is slipping the skin of the very air, and simply "seeing" events whenever they happened and wherever they happened. That will come,but for now I'm focusing on the tree network so as not to confuse things.... yet haha. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

It isn't the same as a video playback but it is effectively like a security camera DVR. We see in chapter 34 of Dance that Bran tries and fails multiple times at talking to past ned. Bloodraven says it is impossible due to personal experience. I am sure to the greenseer it is more akin to reliving memories of the tree, but for practical purposes, time is set and can never be changed, as stated multiple times in the novel 

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It isn't the same as a video playback but it is effectively like a security camera DVR. We see in chapter 34 of Dance that Bran tries and fails multiple times at talking to past ned. Bloodraven says it is impossible due to personal experience. I am sure to the greenseer it is more akin to reliving memories of the tree, but for practical purposes, time is set and can never be changed, as stated multiple times in the novel 

Bran tries twice to talk to Ned and Ned responds both times to the whispering of the wind and the rustling of the leaves. Once clearly turning toward the tree and asking who's there, and the other time frowning long at the tree trying to figure out what's going on. 

Bloodraven clearly tells Bran that Ned heard the whispering of the wind and the rustling of the leaves. He never once says to Bran that Bran never caused the wind to carry a whisper and the leaves to rustle. So it's safe to assume that Bloodraven is meaning that yes, Bran caused these things to happen and Ned heard them and reacted the way he did, but try as Bran might, he cannot sit and converse with his father due to this. 

Wouldnt you agree?. Through the trees magical gateway to the past, Bran can actually see his father in "that time" (since the tree does not understand the concept of time) but his words and actions manifest at the other end as whisperings on the wind and the rustling of leaves so he can't actually talk with him. 

You agree on this?. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Do you view the Weirwood tree network as a mere Hard drive where memories can be accessed and played back in the same fashion that we would press play on a video stored on our computers hard drive.

Or

Do you view the Weirwood tree network as a gateway that lets the Greenseer who slips the skin of the trees and roots view events in "time" as they happened in front of a specific Heart tree.

What's the difference?

[Macgregor of the North]

@Dorian Martell's son

Quote

 Bloodraven says it is impossible due to personal experience

Let's touch on Bloodravens personal experience. That we know of, he has tried on three separate occasions to talk to his siblings but failed to reach them with his words. Bloodraven is a very very smart and wise man who had been alive a very long time before he would have became wed to the trees. 

If he was aware that he was simply accessing data from the trees memory and not actually seeing these people, why does he try again to talk with them, and again. Don't you think he would quit after the first attempt?. Especially since he has many old and wise singers around him that could explain that he is not actually gazing into the past to see these people, but he is simply accessing a memory of the trees. 

We never once hear this explained to Bran either. Infact Bloodraven says explicitly to Bran that through the gates of the Weirwood Bran can literally gaze into the past. If he wanted to deter Bran from trying to talk with people long dead or whatever then wouldn't it be so simple to just tell Bran he is accessing data from the trees memory?. Brans a smart enough boy, he would understand that. IF, it were true.

Its better to stay truthful to Bran. They can't lie to him and break his trust in them, they need him for the cause. They may as well tell him the truth: 

That through the magical gateway that is the Weirwood tree network, Bran can actually gaze deep into the past and see his father, even though he is dead in the present time, but no word of his will reach him when he talks, as Brans words and actions will manifest at the other end as whispers on the wind and rustling on leaves, just like Bloodravens did. 

Clearly we have saw twice that this will prompt a response from Ned, but he can't sit and hold a conversation with him. 

[Macgregor of the North]

10 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

What's the difference?

The difference being that, as Bloodraven tells Bran, through the gates of the magical Weirwood tree network, he can gaze into the past. Bran slips the skin of the tree and he's there, he feels it. He is literally watching that time from inside the Heart tree, but his teacher is telling him he can't talk with the people because his words will only manifest as windy whispers and rustling leaves. 

If Bran was simply just jacking in to the tree network and accessing a memory of the tree, I think everything Bloodraven is telling Bran about what he can do, would read completely different and it would effect Bran a different way as to what we read on page. 

(Adopts Morpheus voice). 'Is it really so hard to believe' that with all the magic involved in this story that once Bran has eaten the Weirwood paste, with blood mixed in IMO, can actually slip into the skin of this living thing, that does not comprehend the concept of "time" at all, and actually be transported to a "time" such as the past (in the Greenseers rules, not the trees) and see the events as they played out in front of the tree. To the tree, this is not the "past", it is simply Ned cleaning Ice, or whatever. 

It sounds like I'm trying to class the Weirwood tree network as a time machine. And of course I am in a sense, although calling it that is obviously not going to help people understand what I think is happening. 

[Macgregor of the North]

@Illyrio Mo'Parties

A better sum up of the difference perhaps, I sometimes struggle to put my point across on this matter even though I am quite sure what my point is haha. 

Accessing the trees memory:

Bran simply mingles his consciousness with the living tree and as he lays in the present, he then watches in his mind a re run of an event in the past such as his father cleaning Ice. 

Seeing the event in the past in front of the tree:

Bran slips his skin and transports his consciousness into the living tree that is a gateway to gaze into the past as per his teachers instruction. Due to the tree not understanding the concept of time as humans do and viewing the past present and future as all one and the same, Bran is transported to a certain place and time and is able to actually witness an event as it happened in the past, or what he would class as the past, but the tree just classes it as the event happening. 

I view the tree as this eternal living thing, rooted in one spot while life moves forward all around it in one direction. When a Greenseer mingles his own consciousness with the trees after eating the paste (and blood) mix, he is able to slip into the trees skin and literally view "time" as the tree sees it. Time will really mean nothing then. The Greenseer can look where he will and find himself at a point in time where an event happened in what the Greenseer would class in the past if he were still in his own body in the present. But while in the tree, looking where he will, he can actually see the event as it unfolded at that "time". To the tree, it is simply just the event happening in front of it. "When" it happened in "time" is not something the tree is concerned about and does not bother to comprehend I don't believe. 

In this fashion, I think Brans words and actions caused the wind to whisper and the leaves to rustle and these actions prompted Ned to turn around toward the tree and ask who was there. 

To mere humans, Ned Stark is dead at this point and Brans limp body is simply lying in a dark cave. But while in the trees skin playing by the trees rules in regards to "time", Ned Stark is alive and well cleaning his sword by the black pool with the Heart tree at his back. While in the trees skin, Brans voice is able to effect the "time" where Ned is, but all it comes across is is a whisper on the wind, and a rustling among the leaves. 

What Bloodraven is trying to make Bran understand though is that even though he has this unbelievable magical ability because his blood makes him a Greenseer and he is now officially "wed to the trees", the past always remains the past, he can never change what happened there. And he can not sit and have a conversation with his father or bring him back from the dead so it is useless to try. 

Bran will try though. He is a curious boy and I believe we will read of his attempts to try and they will become part of the bittersweet ending we are to expect. 

This is what I, in my own humble opinion, think may be happening in this story. 

[Leo of House Cartel]

Good question!

I see the Weirwood Net as a combination of both the gateway and hard drive proposals. As time is non-linear to the net, one would assume that Bran may eventually be able to jack in and bring up any past events he chooses, with adequite training of course. For instance, could Bran travel to a certain time and place by simply entering the WeirNet and imagining "take me to the God's Eye during the pact"? It certainly seems likely, judging by the way Bran's abilities have been hyped up. Then again, it certainly does seem Bloodraven is either holding information back, or misguiding Bran down a darker path.

28 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

If Bran was simply just jacking in to the tree network and accessing a memory of the tree, I think everything Bloodraven is telling Bran about what he can do, would read completely different and it would effect Bran a different way as to what we read on page. 

If Brynden is indeed feeding Bran dodgy information, could it be done as an insurance policy against Bran becoming too powerful and going into business for himself?

Something along the lines of "No doubt Bran will catch on eventually, but for now I'll tell the boy that he can't fully interact with people through the trees, lest he alters elements of my plans in the past, present or future" Who knows?

Perhaps Lord Rivers also worries that Bran may somehow becomes corrupted by some other force.

[ravenous reader]

There are two separate, yet related, questions here:

1.  Do the greenseers only access memories after the fact; or are they actually accessing the past in real time? Otherwise stated, the difference between experiencing the past after it's occurred vs. as it occurs.

2.  Can the greenseers interact with the past and potentially change it?

Let's look at that key passage again:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw."

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

"But," said Bran, "he heard me."

The phrase 'shadows of days past' -- 'shadows' conveying something insubstantial and secondary-- would seem to indicate that what the greenseers are seeing via the weirwood is nothing more than reflections or memories  -- in your parlance, accessing 'the hard drive' after the fact.  An impression, a trace:

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime VI

That is the last thing I mean to do. The moonlight glimmered pale upon the stump where Jaime had rested his head. The moss covered it so thickly he had not noticed before, but now he saw that the wood was white. It made him think of Winterfell, and Ned Stark's heart tree. It was not him, he thought. It was never him. But the stump was dead and so was Stark and so were all the others, Prince Rhaegar and Ser Arthur and the children. And Aerys. Aerys is most dead of all. "Do you believe in ghosts, Maester?" he asked Qyburn.

The man's face grew strange. "Once, at the Citadel, I came into an empty room and saw an empty chair. Yet I knew a woman had been there, only a moment before. The cushion was dented where she'd sat, the cloth was still warm, and her scent lingered in the air. If we leave our smells behind us when we leave a room, surely something of our souls must remain when we leave this life?" Qyburn spread his hands. "The archmaesters did not like my thinking, though. Well, Marwyn did, but he was the only one."

Jaime ran his fingers through his hair. "Walton," he said, "saddle the horses. I want to go back."

Elsewhere, we get the expression 'the trees remember,' implying that they are nothing more than sophisticated libraries, archives, memory banks, etc.  The following certainly sounds like memories being uploaded into a database, which makes greenseeing a kind of 'reading' of those captured memories of the dead:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood."

However, contradicting this, we then learn that time is different for a weirwood, as @Macgregor of the North has pointed out.  If past, present and future are all one moment, then there are no memories, just real time.  The concept of 'memories' implies linear time.  They represent the compensation of a creature stuck in the river of time, who dreams of transcending it.  In contrast, a tree who is not subject to the flow of the river has no need for memories, because nothing is behind it, nor ahead.  This would seem to imply that the greenseers might be 'time travelling' and actually viewing those events as they unfold, instead of perusing a facsimile thereof.  Strictly speaking, 'time travel' in the context of the weirwood is a mischaracterization, given the coexistence of past, present and future; meaning no 'travel' per se is necessary because one is already at the destination! 

Perhaps GRRM is alluding to the theory of relativity here, particularly the curious malleability of time, when he says 1000 human years is equivalent to 1 moment (is that a second?) for a weirwood.  Time is slowed down for a weirwood relative to human time.  That's why they are described 'thinking long slow thoughts' (although 'slow' seems a misnomer, as those thoughts are super-packed with information!):

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

Ned saw the dread on her face. "Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear."

"There are darker things beyond the Wall." She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts.

His smile was gentle. "You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one."

To the second question: can the greenseers interact with the past?  If what they're seeing is nothing more than recorded images of days gone by, then no.  If they're actually accessing the past, then potentially yes.  I tend to favor the latter, since as I explained above, those days have not 'gone by' from the tree's perspective.  Everything is constantly elapsing, yet nothing has elapsed, paradoxically.

From a certain perspective, @Dorian Martell's son's analogy of the livefeed 'DVR security camera' is pretty apt, conveying the idea of the tree watching events unfold in 'real time,' in addition to the sense of frustration the greenseer often feels at only being able to eavesdrop on events without being able to meaningfully interact with them.  Supporting this idea of being imprisoned in the tree is accumulating evidence that the greenseer is severely curtailed in his ability to express himself while in the 'greenseeing trip'; particularly, the greenseer appears to be struck mute by the interaction with the tree, hence the silently screaming faces from a symbolic perspective perhaps.

 In the following quote, Bran is described as 'despairing' and impotent (not in the sexual sense, please guys!).  He can't move; he can't touch; he can't speak through the tree.  Although his motor system seems to be impeded, his sensory system seems to be intact.  In other words, he can receive sensory impressions and process them, without however being able to act on them.  So, the senses of sight and hearing (and later we find out, taste...when he tastes the blood of the human sacrifice to the tree) are preserved.  It's unclear if the senses of touch and smell are intact from the text, but I'd expect them to be, since GRRM, to use a 'neurological' analogy, seems to be describing a kind of 'locked-in' state.  

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can't.

Eddard Stark resumed his prayer. Bran felt his eyes fill up with tears. But were they his own tears, or the weirwood's? If I cry, will the tree begin to weep?

Another example of Bran being 'locked' in the tree and unable apparently to exert his will on the past:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

Contradicting the idea of the greenseer being incapable of responding to what is happening around him, or impacting the course of events in any way, however, there is the suggestion that the reason Ned looked up and stared 'frowning' at the weirwood -- as if perplexed, perhaps -- might have been in response to the 'whisper in the wind' of Bran's voice.  Personally, as you may already know from reading my symbolically-weighted posts, I tend to favor this view, as developed by my fellow posters and me on Evita's 'Bran's growing powers' re-read thread.  However, objectively there's no solid evidence that Bran's voice was translated in any form to his father.  The attribution of causality is a leap of imagination made by the reader, identifying with Bran whose assertion 'but he heard me' might just be wishful thinking, as encouraged by the author's manipulations.

People tend to falsely attribute all kinds of intentions and signs to natural phenomena.  Perhaps a comet is just a comet, nothing further.  However, the irresistible human urge is to imbue the comet with personal meaning, as demonstrated by multiple characters in the text.  Likewise, perhaps the wind is just the wind, the rustle of the leaves just a rustle; and who knows why Ned looked up or why he frowned at just that moment.  Perhaps Ned's behavior is unrelated to Bran's presence in the tree, although many of us would like to believe for sentimental reasons that his father sensed him in some way.  

On my poetry thread we were recently discussing Coleridge's poem 'The Rime of the Ancient Mariner' in which Coleridge explores a similar phenomenon, whereby the ship's crew relate the fluctuations in the sea and weather conditions to the death of a particular bird.  If the subsequent conditions are favorable for sailing, they say it's good the evil bird was shot.  If however the conditions are unfavorable for them, the fickle crew says it's evil the good bird was shot.  It's human nature to want to interpret everything subjectively and attribute (fallaciously) human emotions to the elements.  

Another example from the ASOIAF text would be Bran's passage through the 'Black Gate' at which he feels a 'strangely warm' fluid which tastes 'salty as a tear' roll down his face.  A simile is used, but was it really a 'tear'?  Was someone really crying?  Why couldn't it be another kind of fluid?  'Niter' (saltpetre) crystals are seen on the wall of the well in the Nightfort, so there's a natural explanation for why the fluid might have been salty.  Those crystals have to precipitate out of solution from somewhere.  Part of the enjoyment of reading fantasy is the suspension of disbelief, so we like to imagine that there's some connection between the salty fluid, the face in the gate, and Bran's passage through it, and GRRM is certainly toying with suggesting as much; however, there's really no conclusive evidence these things are related to some emotion emanating from the weirwood.  

At the conclusion of the passage above, we are left with a similar interesting question when Bran asks,'If I cry, will the tree begin to weep?'  In poetic terms, the trees are often personified as solemn, mournful, weeping blood, screaming, etc., so one wonders if that might be the expression of the one looking out of the tree somehow translated to the outside.  

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII

Ahead he glimpsed a pale white trunk that could only be a weirwood, crowned with a head of dark red leaves. Jon Snow reached back and pulled Longclaw from his sheath. He looked to right and left, gave Satin and Horse a nod, watched them pass it on to the men beyond. They rushed the grove together, kicking through drifts of old snow with no sound but their breathing. Ghost ran with them, a white shadow at Jon's side.

The weirwoods rose in a circle around the edges of the clearing. There were nine, all roughly of the same age and size. Each one had a face carved into it, and no two faces were alike. Some were smiling, some were screaming, some were shouting at him. In the deepening glow their eyes looked black, but in daylight they would be blood-red, Jon knew. Eyes like Ghost's.

Incidentally, it occurs to me that the greenseer in the weirwood called the 'Black Gate' is the most advanced greenseer we've met, being able to articulate more than one word at a time, move its facial 'muscles', as it were (e.g. opening and closing its eyes, opening its mouth wide to admit Bran and co), and generate light (the 'glow' from the face) and heat (the 'warmth' of the 'tear'); so maybe that was really a 'tear' shed by the person trapped in the tree!

Unfortunately, we don't have many examples of greenseeing 'trips' to the past, so it's difficult to reach a conclusion regarding whether a greenseer 'locked in' to a tree is nevertheless able to influence the past.  If we don't confine ourselves to past 'trips', then the answer is clearer.  Notably, Bran is able to communicate with Theon via the Winterfell heart tree using the 'common tongue'.  It's strongly suggested by the text that Bran is the agent causing the leaves of the tree to rustle -- especially since GRRM highlights that the night was 'windless,' thereby eliminating the most probable natural explanation for the phenomenon of leaves rustling!

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A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

And in the heart of the wood the weirwood waited with its knowing red eyes. Theon stopped by the edge of the pool and bowed his head before its carved red face. Even here he could hear the drumming, boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM. Like distant thunder, the sound seemed to come from everywhere at once.

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands."

The question remains:  will the powers Bran developed late in ADWD transpose into the past, if he gets a chance to go there again?

[Macgregor of the North]

@ravenous reader I am reading through your post in full when I get time, in regards to the trees remembering though. 

I always thought this was simply in the sense that because countless spirits and souls of dead singers and their Greenseers have saw everything of themselves (bar their physical bodies) transport into the network of the trees upon their demise, then so has all their knowledge of spells, tales, songs etc., and this is what the trees remember and also what Bran can access. 

I have never thought it applied to the tree "remembering" a time that has past, which means Bran can access a playback of if it in his mind. 

I have always interpreted that when Bran is slipping the skin of the living tree network that does not comprehend the concept of time, and his heart yearns for a "place and time", Bran is literally there, he feels it and is actually viewing that event as it happened "in time". Do you agree with that line of thought?. 

When Bran slips the skin of the trees it's akin to what he does with Summer and we know how strong that bond is:

"I am him, and he is me. He feels what I feel."

The connection is very strong:

"Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood. Become the tree."

And again later:

"I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes".

So when Bran makes this connection, he feels what is happening very strongly and he literally tell us he is taken there:

"… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father."

Surely these choices of text from GRRM help with the point I'm trying to prove here, don't you think?. 

Wouldnt we read it differently if Bran was simply watching a stored memory?. 

[Macgregor of the North]

57 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Unfortunately, we don't have many examples of greenseeing 'trips' to the past, so it's difficult to reach a conclusion regarding whether a greenseer 'locked in' to a tree is nevertheless able to influence the past.  If we don't confine ourselves to past 'trips', then the answer is clearer.  Notably, Bran is able to communicate with Theon via the Winterfell heart tree using the 'common tongue'.  It's strongly suggested by the text that Bran is the agent causing the leaves of the tree to rustle -- especially since GRRM highlights that the night was 'windless,' thereby eliminating the most probable natural explanation for the phenomenon of leaves rustling!

But if we look at things from the most important angle here, the angle of the trees who do not comprehend the concept of time and treat the past, present and future as all one and the same, then to the tree, isn't the Theon scenario and the Ned cleaning Ice scenario exactly the same and it is only Bran, or Bloodraven, or us the readers who class this time as the past, so therefore doesn't that answer the question?.

If the tree simply views it as just an event occurring "in time" (whatever that is), then the greenseer who is locked ins actions and words should effectively manifest as whispering wind and rustly leaves at the other end, whether the greenseer or us readers class the event as happening in the "past" or the "present".

So from this angle, to the greenseers and us the readers, their actions and words are what prompted the response from those in front of the Heart tree, such as Ned "in the past", or Theon "in the present". To the tree, it is simply people in front of the tree no?.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

59 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The question remains:  will the powers Bran developed late in ADWD transpose into the past, if he gets a chance to go there again?

For the meantime, it seems his training will resume everyday for some time, so isn't the question that we should try and figure out which events of the past that we the reader class as having already happened that Bran may have had a subtle effect on? Such as the sound Jon heard when the wind was blowing that gave him pause and looked round to spy Ghost moving in the snow for example. Strange events like these are obviously not due to Bran watching through the eyes of the Weirwood tree because as far as we know their was no Weirwood present, but what if when Bran progresses and can see "well beyond the trees" as promised. Im jumping the gun but hey ho its my thread.

In this instance Bran could simply just be present "in time", seeming to be slipping the skin of the very air, which is strange for sure, but Bloodraven has laid the groundwork for this kind of thought when he teased Bran with that prospect did he not?.

[Macgregor of the North]

Anybody on this thread, anybody at all, tell me what you think of this here:

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

The bolded is obviously a GRRM insert into the text to tell us whats happening as we read Bran trying to talk to his father.

Note he tells us that in this situation that Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves.

From the mind of the author, is this not a confirmation that Brans voice was the action that caused the whispering wind and rustling leaves. Even though it is in a time that us and Bran would class as the past.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Good question!

I see the Weirwood Net as a combination of both the gateway and hard drive proposals. As time is non-linear to the net, one would assume that Bran may eventually be able to jack in and bring up any past events he chooses, with adequite training of course. For instance, could Bran travel to a certain time and place by simply entering the WeirNet and imagining "take me to the God's Eye during the pact"? It certainly seems likely, judging by the way Bran's abilities have been hyped up. Then again, it certainly does seem Bloodraven is either holding information back, or misguiding Bran down a darker path.

If Brynden is indeed feeding Bran dodgy information, could it be done as an insurance policy against Bran becoming too powerful and going into business for himself?

Something along the lines of "No doubt Bran will catch on eventually, but for now I'll tell the boy that he can't fully interact with people through the trees, lest he alters elements of my plans in the past, present or future" Who knows?

Perhaps Lord Rivers also worries that Bran may somehow becomes corrupted by some other force.

I don't necessarily think Bloodraven is feeding Bran dodgy information and deceiving him as such. I think he has to tell the truth to Bran. Bran is a greenseer and will find out the truth anyway. Plus they need him for the cause and need him to trust them fully so they cant be lying to him right off the bat.

Which is why I think that they are telling Bran the truth in that he can gaze through this magical tree gateway to the past, but he can not bring back his father or hold conversations with him as Bloodraven has tried multiple times himself and failed, because his words only materialised into windy whispers and rustly leaves which his siblings obviously paid no attention to. Why would they? They weren't praying like Ned and Theon, or cleaning their sword right in front of it while being an Old gods follower like Ned.

He likely glimpsed them from a distance perhaps and they just did not notice when he reached out to them.

Ned did though when Bran tried, twice. And Theon did too, in what we class as the present. But if the trees class the past and the present as the exact same thing, then Brans voice was what made the wind whisper and the leaves rustle in both scenarios and prompted responses in both the present and also in "the past". Even though the tree didn't view it as the past, only us and Bran do.

[ravenous reader]

39 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@ravenous reader I am reading through your post in full when I get time, in regards to the trees remembering though. 

I always thought this was simply in the sense that because countless spirits and souls of dead singers and their Greenseers have saw everything of themselves (bar their physical bodies) transport into the network of the trees upon their demise, then so has all their knowledge of spells, tales, songs etc., and this is what the trees remember and also what Bran can access. 

Yes, the tree absorbs all the consciousnesses of every greenseer that's ever looked through a tree's eyes.  Any tree -- since they're all connected in the so-called 'weirnet.'  In that way, it's like a vast living library.

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I have never thought it applied to the tree "remembering" a time that has past, which means Bran can access a playback of if it in his mind. 

OK, gotcha.  The whole concept of memory becomes problematic, though, once you start saying that all times are one, and therefore that there is no time for a tree.  Perhaps GRRM is making a comment about recording and preserving our stories in words, which then in a sense exists outside time and affords a measure of immortality.  

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I have always interpreted that when Bran is slipping the skin of the living tree network that does not comprehend the concept of time, and his heart yearns for a "place and time", Bran is literally there, he feels it and is actually viewing that event as it happened "in time". Do you agree with that line of thought?. 

My instinct is to agree with that, but I'm not sure we can prove it conclusively.  It could just be a good 'virtual reality' trick!  Remember, the seers are 'high' on their 'seeweed', so I'm not sure they can differentiate fantasy from reality anymore in terms of their perceptions!

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When Bran slips the skin of the trees it's akin to what he does with Summer and we know how strong that bond is:

"I am him, and he is me. He feels what I feel."

The connection is very strong:

"Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood. Become the tree."

And again later:

"I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes".

So when Bran makes this connection, he feels what is happening very strongly and he literally tell us he is taken there:

"… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father."

Surely these choices of text from GRRM help with the point I'm trying to prove here, don't you think?. 

Wouldnt we read it differently if Bran was simply watching a stored memory?. 

I think we need to draw a distinction between the present and past skinchanging.  What does it mean to skinchange the past?

The fact that he is 'looking out' of someone's eyes might indicate that he's accessing the vivid memories of a greenseer who once looked out of those eyes when he was observing Ned in the godswood many years ago.  The way the visual system works in 'real life' is in any case a trick of the brain.  We do not 'see' only with our eyes.  If any part of the visual pathway in the brain (it goes all the way to the back of the brain, ironically) is interrupted, your vision can be impaired.  So if I could somehow translate the image I'm currently seeing of the scene outside the window into the appropriate electrical signals and download it into your brain, you might be able to see what I'm seeing as if you were looking through my eyes -- although you're not.  In that hypothetical case (God forbid it never comes true; neither of us wants to be in each other's heads, I'm sure!  ), the transferred 'file' or 'program' would constitute a memory of sorts, so although it would seem real to you, it wouldn't be occurring in real time, having been exported from me, with a necessary delay.

[Macgregor of the North]

@ravenous reader

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My instinct is to agree with that, but I'm not sure we can prove it conclusively.

Agreement between us is always nice. I think we are coming close to proving this if I'm honest .

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  It could just be a good 'virtual reality' trick!  Remember, the seers are 'high' on their 'seeweed', so I'm not sure they can differentiate fantasy from reality anymore in terms of their perceptions!

Lol, I'm not so sure. I think you are more on my side of the fence with this topic than you are letting on. Commit RR! Take the jump and join me. 

The seers aren't really high on their seeweed though are they. They have simply ingested a magical potion of blood and Weirwood seeds paste that has wed them to the trees and allowed them to transfer their consciousness into the tree and effectively "become the tree" and look out through its eyes like Bran says. All that means really to me is that Bran can now access every song, language, spell... (whatever) that any dead singer or Greenseer knew, and also, more importantly, yearn for an actual place and time and literally "see" it as it happened in time. That to me is an elevation of the mind. Heightened clarity if you will. 

Seriously though. The "Gods", well, the magical higher powers that are worshipped as gods, grant visions of the future that if read correctly could alter the story and have already. 

Mels fire visions granted to her from the fire magic powers, and Jojen and the Ghost of High Hearts greendreams granted from the "Old Gods" magic are potential game changers that if read right can alter the story as it moves forward. 

Hell, Daenys the dreamer was granted a vision that she acted on that changed her destiny. 

Why cant it work the other way and the Old Gods magic can allow Bran to achieve what I think he is achieving in the story?. It's still game changing stuff with risks and danger involved. And there's  limits also that GRRM has placed on the power of it. The visions, of Jojen and TGOHH especially are very tricky to call with their symbolic content, the interpretation could be taken wrong etc etc. 

With Bran there is limits and risks too I believe. His voice can only materialise as windy whispers and rustling leaves which limits his conversation ability so he can't simply advise people to do something as he sees fit. 

And also, there is the fact that the past remains the past. Things only happen once and Bran can never change them, but what if through trying to change an event Bran finds he causes it. That results in Bran feeling disillusioned with his skill, possibly rejecting it. He will be broken hearted. I think Bran is heading this way and his only salvation may be a sacrifice, of himself. He will not want to go on when he fully grasps what he has done. 

If GRRM decides to go down that road of course. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

@ravenous reader

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I think we need to draw a distinction between the present and past skinchanging.  What does it mean to skinchange the past?

But Bran is not Skinchanging the past or the present, he is slipping in to the skin and becoming at one with a living thing that does not understand concepts such as "the past", or "the present". 

The tree and it's network is eternal is it not, neither past nor present, it just is. (I know what I'm trying to convey here, my wording may be a bit shit though).

Only what Bran himself perceives to be the past is actually the past then really. When he is looking through the eyes of the tree at an event, he is simply viewing an event happening when it happened I believe and because he is at one with the tree playing by its rules, it is not the past the present or the future, it is simply just something happening in time. 

Only when Bran slips back into his own skin would he truly be able to class the event he was witnessing as the past, but at the time he was the tree, it was simply just the event happening. We even see that when he sees his father, he genuinely felt as though he was there watching Ned from within the Heart tree, he felt he was at Winterfell, even though his limp body was in a dark cave in.... the future. 

Maybe I'm rambling now. 

[Macgregor of the North]

@ravenous reader

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The fact that he is 'looking out' of someone's eyes might indicate that he's accessing the vivid memories of a greenseer who once looked out of those eyes when he was observing Ned in the godswood many years ago.

Hmmmm. But wouldn't Bran pause and feel something, like he did when he was in the Raven and felt the presence of the dead singer? Then he would have indicated to Bloodraven perhaps that he felt he was tapping into the memory of a previous Greenseer.

In any event he is not looking out of "someone's eyes". He is looking out of the trees eyes. He had went into the roots and became the tree and is looking out of its eyes. He feels all this. 

"Close your eyes," said the three-eyed crow. "Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see."......

"Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood. Become the tree."....

"I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes".