A question for the Forum: A mere hard drive stacked with data, or a gateway to another 'time'(as the Greenseer sees it).

[Darry Man]

Trees are portals, conduits of information or, more specifically, as conduits of the old-god souls which may inhabit the trees. So the trees themselves don't have memories, they are skins for old-god spirits, and simply allow for the consciousness of the souls to move through time and space.

And I don't think this is an exclusively weirwood trait. Souls inhabit ravens, in particular, but virtually every other beast. So why not every type of tree? In AGOT, Will the Ranger notes:

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"There's one woman up an ironwood, half-hid in the branches. A far-eyes." He smiled thinly. "I took care she never saw me. When I got closer, I saw that she wasn't moving neither." Despite himself, he shivered.

"Do you have a chill?" Royce asked.

"Some," Will muttered. "The wind, m'lord."

 

Weirwoods, with their unique ability to preserve and endure, are simply the best portals for this phenomenon, and through them, the talented greenseers can participate in events within proximity of the tree with ease. As it was mentioned several times, participation could include simple observation, but it could also manifest physically as a means of two-way communication (laughing faces, rustling leaves, etc.). 

What proof do we have that other wood is a conduit of this consciousness? Maester Aemon says, "Fire consumes, but cold preserves." Red priests view events and possibly the future through the flames, flames which are produced by consuming wood. This consumption connects these wizards to the souls of the old gods, but in the process, this act threatens the old-god souls and destroys the portal. Varamyr says as much:

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Even that had not been so agonizing as the fire in his guts, crackling along his wings, devouring him. When he tried to fly from it, his terror fanned the flames and made them burn hotter. One moment he had been soaring above the Wall, his eagle's eyes marking the movements of the men below. Then the flames had turned his heart into a blackened cinder and sent his spirit screaming back into his own skin, and for a little while he'd gone mad. Even the memory was enough to make him shudder.

That was when he noticed that his fire had gone out.

 

This could also be an explanation to why the CotF went to war with the First Men over the destruction of the weirwoods. The First Men weren't merely cutting down the weirwoods and disrupting communications networks; they were burning these trees, seeing visions in the flames and destroying souls, inadvertently or otherwise.

Of course, fire also consumes the substance as well as oil in the text, but these don't seem to be used to view the past or future. 

Fire from dragonglass candles, however, are used to transport consciousness through time and space. But glass candles do not consume, thus the flames do not destroy souls of the dead either.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Darry Man welcome! Unfortunately I am too busy to continue this now but your great post will get my attention tomorrow when I'm back on. Great thoughts.

[Darry Man]

3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Darry Man welcome! Unfortunately I am too busy to continue this now but your great post will get my attention tomorrow when I'm back on. Great thoughts.

That's definitely okay. This topic has really given me plenty to think about. Looking forward to where it will lead.

[Lord Lannister]

I always figured it was more akin to Bran being able to interact with the past, but only as the weirwood tree he's warged into. Hence the blowing of wind and rustling of leaves. Which would seem infinitely more frustrating than not being able to interact at all, but only watch. Still, I don't doubt for a moment Bran will find someway to screw things up.

[Dorian Martell's son]

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Bran tries twice to talk to Ned and Ned responds both times to the whispering of the wind and the rustling of the leaves. Once clearly turning toward the tree and asking who's there, and the other time frowning long at the tree trying to figure out what's going on. 

Bloodraven clearly tells Bran that Ned heard the whispering of the wind and the rustling of the leaves. He never once says to Bran that Bran never caused the wind to carry a whisper and the leaves to rustle. So it's safe to assume that Bloodraven is meaning that yes, Bran caused these things to happen and Ned heard them and reacted the way he did, but try as Bran might, he cannot sit and converse with his father due to this. 

Wouldnt you agree?. Through the trees magical gateway to the past, Bran can actually see his father in "that time" (since the tree does not understand the concept of time) but his words and actions manifest at the other end as whisperings on the wind and the rustling of leaves so he can't actually talk with him. 

You agree on this?. 

I don't agree. I think it is possible and it go either way but since neither bran nor bloodraven can affect the past, it is for all practical purposes like a video playback. Nothing will change, there is only viewing, as is stated twice in the books 

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I don't agree. I think it is possible and  go either way but since neither bran nor bloodraven can affect the past, it is for all practical purposes like a video playback. Nothing will change, there is only viewing, as is stated twice in the books 

You don't agree that it's Brans voice that makes the wind whisper and the leaves rustle in the past even though GRRM states in the novel that it is:

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

GRRMS own description of what's happening in the scene to help us readers along while he shows us Bran try to talk with his father in a time that we the readers and also Bran would class as the past. 

So if Brans voice was the whisper on the wind and the rustle of the leaves and that is what made Ned turn, as per Bloodraven telling us that is exactly what Ned heard, therefore Bran caused that event in what we class as the past, from inside the Weirwood tree then yes?. 

[Macgregor of the North]

@Dorian Martell's son

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 there is only viewing, as is stated twice in the books 

Can you show me the exact text that shows this please. The two instances that show Bran can only view what is happening and nothing else. 

In truth the Novels state that Brans voice becomes a whisper on the wind and a rustle on the leaves and that try as he might he can't talk with his father. That is quite different from telling Bran he can only watch. Bloodraven is basically saying that he will not understand you when you talk to him as it is only the leaves and wind he hears when you speak so you shouldn't try to bring him back from the dead or converse with him. He is telling Bran not to bother trying to bring back dead people or talk with the people he sees, not that all he is capable of doing is viewing. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Dorian Martell's son

Let's touch on Bloodravens personal experience. That we know of, he has tried on three separate occasions to talk to his siblings but failed to reach them with his words. Bloodraven is a very very smart and wise man who had been alive a very long time before he would have became wed to the trees. 

Agreed 

7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

If he was aware that he was simply accessing data from the trees memory and not actually seeing these people, why does he try again to talk with them, and again. Don't you think he would quit after the first attempt?. Especially since he has many old and wise singers around him that could explain that he is not actually gazing into the past to see these people, but he is simply accessing a memory of the trees. 

He tries because he is human, and now that he is old,  his family is all but gone, and he has regrets. As people age, their perspectives change. Since he has lived close to 2 human lifetimes, he has one hell of a perspective in life. Remember, he has been able to watch the whole life and death of everyone he cared for.
The desire to be able to change the past has been part of the human experience since we have been able to perceive the fourth dimension.  Also, people are rarely rational when dealing with love, family, hate and enemies. This is a man who loved his sister romantically and went to war with his brother who also loved the same sister. The rivalry with his brother brought great suffering to the kingdom, either directly in the fighting or because he let things like the IB rise to power while he kept his focus on the narrow sea. 

7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

We never once hear this explained to Bran either. Infact Bloodraven says explicitly to Bran that through the gates of the Weirwood Bran can literally gaze into the past. If he wanted to deter Bran from trying to talk with people long dead or whatever then wouldn't it be so simple to just tell Bran he is accessing data from the trees memory?. Brans a smart enough boy, he would understand that. IF, it were true.

It is true. Bloodraven does say it. He doesn't say "Accessing memory data" because those are computer terms and there are no computers in ASOIAF.  but Bloodraven says literally that try as he may, a greenseer cannot influence, interact with or change the past.  

8 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Its better to stay truthful to Bran. They can't lie to him and break his trust in them, they need him for the cause. They may as well tell him the truth: 

That through the magical gateway that is the Weirwood tree network, Bran can actually gaze deep into the past and see his father, even though he is dead in the present time, but no word of his will reach him when he talks, as Brans words and actions will manifest at the other end as whispers on the wind and rustling on leaves, just like Bloodravens did. 

Clearly we have saw twice that this will prompt a response from Ned, but he can't sit and hold a conversation with him. 

I guess this is what I don't get with this thread. Bloodraven literally says this to bran in chapter 34 and then bran repeats this to himself. Bran cannot influence or interact with the past and as bloodraven states, of all the effort to speak to the past, there is only the sound of wind and leaves.  Does this mean that speaking to the past made the wind and leaf sounds? Maybe, but most likely not. Either way, it doesn't mater, because it is stated unequivocally that the past is set. it can be viewed but not changed

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The question remains:  will the powers Bran developed late in ADWD transpose into the past, if he gets a chance to go there again?

We have two books left. If I was a betting man I would put money on no. 

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

I always figured it was more akin to Bran being able to interact with the past, but only as the weirwood tree he's warged into. Hence the blowing of wind and rustling of leaves. Which would seem infinitely more frustrating than not being able to interact at all, but only watch. Still, I don't doubt for a moment Bran will find someway to screw things up.

Yup, Bran has slipped the skin of the tree roots and effectively "became the tree" like he says and is looking through the trees eyes so his words materialise as windy whispers and rustly leaves which is heard and seen from whoever is in front of the Weirwood tree Bran finds himself at, regardless of if this person is in what a human would class as the past. The tree does not see it that way as time is not a concept the tree understands. 

There is actually nothing (IMO) to differentiate for the tree between Neds scenario and Theons scenario. They are simply just two different people in front of the Heart tree, even if we would class the scenarios as in "the past" or "the present". 

So Bran appearing as a face on the tree briefly to Theon, and Theon understanding the whisper as his own name is effectively possible in what we class as the "past". GRRM may well show us that soon, when he thinks we're ready.

Infact one of the coolest theories I've ever saw is the Knight of the laughing tree one where Lyanna is praying in front of the Heart tree at Harrenhal and is telling the Old Gods about how she beat the squires and how she plans to enter the lists as a Mystery Knight. 

Bran, who has heard the story of course, has slipped the skin of the roots and found himself viewing this event at Harrenhal and takes great delight that he has found out who the Mystery Knight was and it was his own aunt so he laughs and smiles. This shows on the tree briefly, as Brans face did with Theon, and is the reason Lyanna has her shield painted this way, believing she has received a sign from the Old Gods. 

We simply have to keep in mind that to the tree, Ned is simply cleaning Ice, and Theon is simply on his knees talking to the tree. Concepts such as "past" and "present" do not apply.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Dorian Martell's son

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He tries because he is human, and now that he is old,  his family is all but gone, and he has regrets

Sorry but you will have to do a lot better than that DM. This man was no old senile fool in his feelings. He was a competent LC before his disappearance and only became more wise after making contact with the singers.

If this man thought for a second he was only watching a memory of the trees he wouldn't have tried to talk, he would have simply enjoyed watching and reminiscing. The fact he continued to try to talk with them is due to the point I'm trying to get you to see. But you are digging your heels in as usual and showing true stubborn grit my old amigo. This is certainly are bogey topic. You won't budge, I know that, but I am noticing certain signs in your replies that show you actually think their is a high chance what I'm saying is all true. 

If I was to hazard a guess, I imagine that even though you begun to agree with me, you wouldn't admit it. I'll not try to convince you much longer DM as we know it's a tiresome charade. But, when you finally do realise and admit than Brans voice caused the wind to whisper and the leaves to rustle, and that caused Ned to turn and ask who was there, I do hope I am present at that moment. 

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Does this mean that speaking to the past made the wind and leaf sounds? Maybe, but most likely not.

Exactly my point. A year ago you were not even close to saying it was a maybe, now look where we're at. Give it a wee while longer and you will be saying it is so. I garauntee it. 

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 Either way, it doesn't mater, because it is stated unequivocally that the past is set. it can be viewed but not changed

We all know the past is set. Nobody has ever disputed that once. I actually shout that from the rooftops when I talk on this topic. And of course it matters. If Brans voice caused the windy whispers and the rustly leaves which in turn caused Ned to to frown at the tree and ask who's there, this means that Bran actually caused that to happen, when it happened, the only time it ever happened. 

Like it or not, that would mean that Bran would not be changing or altering the past, but he was always the cause of it in the first place, from..... the future.

[Dorian Martell's son]

37 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You don't agree that it's Brans voice that makes the wind whisper and the leaves rustle in the past even though GRRM states in the novel that it is:

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

GRRMS own description of what's happening in the scene to help us readers along while he shows us Bran try to talk with his father in a time that we the readers and also Bran would class as the past. 

So if Brans voice was the whisper on the wind and the rustle of the leaves and that is what made Ned turn, as per Bloodraven telling us that is exactly what Ned heard, therefore Bran caused that event in what we class as the past, from inside the Weirwood tree then yes?. 

Nope. Bran tries to speak to Ned. Ned hears wind and leaves, not his son's voice. No matter what bran says, he will never be able to change the past. for all we know, he speaks to ned just as a breeze blows by 

42 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Dorian Martell's son

Can you show me the exact text that shows this please. The two instances that show Bran can only view what is happening and nothing else. 

“Tell us what you saw.” From far away Leaf looked almost a girl, no older than Bran or one of his sisters, but close at hand she seemed far older. She claimed to have seen two hundred years.
Bran’s throat was very dry. He swallowed. “Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He’s not dead, he’s not, I saw him, he’s back at Winterfell, he’s still alive.”
“No,” said Leaf. “He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death.”
“I saw him.” Bran could feel rough wood pressing against one cheek. “He was cleaning Ice.”
“You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw.”
“A man must know how to look before he can hope to see,” said Lord Brynden. “Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past.”
“But,” said Bran, “he heard me.”
He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.”

That is the first quote that literally spells out to the readers and the characters that the past cannot be changed, influenced, affected or in any way interacted with. But there is more.:
“ … but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. “… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them,” he prayed, “and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …”
“Father.” Bran’s voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. “Father, it’s me. It’s Bran. Brandon.”
Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can’t.”

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

In truth the Novels state that Brans voice becomes a whisper on the wind and a rustle on the leaves and that try as he might he can't talk with his father. That is quite different from telling Bran he can only watch. 

It is actually. Since bran can literally only watch. Bran even says so himself in the above quote I have provided. 

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Bloodraven is basically saying that he will not understand you when you talk to him as it is only the leaves and wind he hears when you speak so you shouldn't try to bring him back from the dead or converse with him. He is telling Bran not to bother trying to bring back dead people or talk with the people he sees, not that all he is capable of doing is viewing.

What part of "The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it." is saying that it is possible to communicate with the past and bring people back from the dead? Really, I am honestly looking forward to how you will try to rationalize this one

[cgrav]

My notion is that the Weirnet and some other physical spots (under the sea, in the flames) are doors to a realm of non-linear time and action. That means being drowned or communing with the sea like Damphair is equivalent to going into the Weirwood.

What do we think about the idea of burning alive providing the same access? Albeit in a slightly more permanent fashion (or is it permanent? .... M = R)

Qhorin acts as an archetypal spirit guide for Jon, and I believe he says that fire is both life and death. 

I'll come back with more nuanced replies to other posts when I'm at an actual computer.

[ravenous reader]

49 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I guess this is what I don't get with this thread. Bloodraven literally says this to bran in chapter 34 and then bran repeats this to himself. Bran cannot influence or interact with the past and as bloodraven states, of all the effort to speak to the past, there is only the sound of wind and leaves.  Does this mean that speaking to the past made the wind and leaf sounds? Maybe, but most likely not. Either way, it doesn't mater, because it is stated unequivocally that the past is set. it can be viewed but not changed

Assuming we can trust what Bloodraven says in good faith, we should also recognise that Bloodraven can only report the parameters of greenseeing according to the limits of his own experience to date.  To his knowledge, making contact with those in the past is impossible-- which I understand in a very broad sense to mean, as I once discussed with you, that one human consciousness from the future makes itself known to another in the past.  However, just because it's true for Bloodraven doesn't mean it's necessarily going to be the same for his protege Bran, who is somewhat of a greenseeing prodigy.  Recall on Bran's first lesson -- let's call it 'Greenseeing 101 for promising naughty boys who like to climb higher than their parents want them to' -- Bloodraven gives Bran the instruction, with modest expectations, to follow the roots to the trees on the hill adjacent to the cave.  To his surprise, however, Bran ends up in a tree leagues away, at Winterfell; and moreover, in another timeframe entirely.  Actually, on his first greenseeing attempt he's landed up in a timeframe predating his own birth -- pretty impressive for a beginner!  That's like someone after just one surfing lesson surfing the Banzai Pipeline, or after just one skiing lesson whizzing straight down a 'black' piste without a problem.  I hope this argument pleases you and you will find it in your heart to comply... 

[Dorian Martell's son]

20 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Dorian Martell's son

Sorry but you will have to do a lot better than that DM. This man was no old senile fool in his feelings. He was a competent LC before his disappearance and only became more wise after making contact with the singers.

If this man thought for a second he was only watching a memory of the trees he wouldn't have tried to talk, he would have simply enjoyed watching and reminiscing. The fact he continued to try to talk with them is due to the point I'm trying to get you to see. But you are digging your heels in as usual and showing true stubborn grit my old amigo. This is certainly are bogey topic. You won't budge, I know that, but I am noticing certain signs in your replies that show you actually think their is a high chance what I'm saying is all true. 

If I was to hazard a guess, I imagine that even though you begun to agree with me, you wouldn't admit it. I'll not try to convince you much longer DM as we know it's a tiresome charade. But, when you finally do realise and admit than Brans voice caused the wind to whisper and the leaves to rustle, and that caused Ned to turn and ask who was there, I do hope I am present at that moment. 

I don't have to do shit. you however, do. You should spend some time with older people before you make the bold assumption that an old man has to be senile to have feelings like regret, or longing for a long lost family member, or the desire to change something about their past. 
And no, at this point, Bran's voice did not cause the wind and leaves to rustle. I have to leave open a shred of possibility because this is a fantasy novel with magic and dragons, but even if his voice can do such a thing, it doesn't matter, as you cannot change the past.

26 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

 We all know the past is set. Nobody has ever disputed that once. I actually shout that from the rooftops when I talk on this topic. And of course it matters. If Brans voice caused the windy whispers and the rustly leaves which in turn caused Ned to to frown at the tree and ask who's there, this means that Bran actually caused that to happen, when it happened, the only time it ever happened. 

you do it several times in this reply 

28 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 Like it or not, that would mean that Bran would not be changing or altering the past, but he was always the cause of it in the first place, from..... the future.

Causing a something in the past would inherently imply the ability to change it. Static time loops are a tired old sci fi trope. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

9 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Assuming we can trust what Bloodraven says in good faith, we should also recognise that Bloodraven can only report the parameters of greenseeing according to the limits of his own experience to date.  To his knowledge, making contact with those in the past is impossible-- which I understand in a very broad sense to mean, as I once discussed with you, that one human consciousness from the future makes itself known to another in the past.  However, just because it's true for Bloodraven doesn't mean it's necessarily going to be the same for his protege Bran, who is somewhat of a greenseeing prodigy.  Recall on Bran's first lesson -- let's call it 'Greenseeing 101 for promising naughty boys who like to climb higher than their parents want them to' -- Bloodraven gives Bran the instruction, with modest expectations, to follow the roots to the trees on the hill adjacent to the cave.  To his surprise, however, Bran ends up in a tree leagues away, at Winterfell; and moreover, in another timeframe entirely.  Actually, on his first greenseeing attempt he's landed up in a timeframe predating his own birth -- pretty impressive for a beginner!  That's like someone after just one surfing lesson surfing the Banzai Pipeline, or after just one skiing lesson whizzing straight down a 'black' piste without a problem. 

Well, there is the whole bit about both bran and bloodraven saying that it is impossible, but hey, when has that ever stopped a theory in this forum 

11 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 I hope this argument pleases you and you will find it in your heart to comply... 

you need to be more forceful and direct when using a whip 

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, cgrav said:

My notion is that the Weirnet and some other physical spots (under the sea, in the flames) are doors to a realm of non-linear time and action. That means being drowned or communing with the sea like Damphair is equivalent to going into the Weirwood.

As you know, I agree with the sea/see continuum!

I think the 'rumbling of the waves' or 'language of Leviathan' is the same thing as the 'rustling of the leaves' or 'True Tongue.'

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What do we think about the idea of burning alive providing the same access? Albeit in a slightly more permanent fashion (or is it permanent? .... M = R)

M=R?

Burning after death seems to provide the same access symbolically, for example when Dany sees Drogo mounting the smoky stallion to the stars.

As you once noted, however, fire seems to give access exclusively to the present and future; whereas the weirwood gives access to the past as well -- or have you changed your mind on that distinction?

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Yup, Bran has slipped the skin of the tree roots and effectively "became the tree" like he says and is looking through the trees eyes so his words materialise as windy whispers and rustly leaves which is heard and seen from whoever is in front of the Weirwood tree Bran finds himself at, regardless of if this person is in what a human would class as the past. The tree does not see it that way as time is not a concept the tree understands. 

There is actually nothing (IMO) to differentiate for the tree between Neds scenario and Theons scenario. They are simply just two different people in front of the Heart tree, even if we would class the scenarios as in "the past" or "the present". 

Logically, this makes sense.  If past, present and future are all equivalent for a tree, then a greenseer's powers as exerted via the tree correspondingly shouldn't be any different across the spectrum.

Regarding @Little Scribe from Naath's theory about the laughing weirwood, assuming this may have happened, it's possible that Bran may have already unwittingly precipitated a destructive train of events.  Had he not laughed in his carefree way, imprinting the tree with his laughing face for the future Knight of the Laughing Tree to see, then perhaps the KOTLT, for whom I believe Lyanna is still the likeliest candidate, may not have painted her shield in that fashion, and Aerys may not have interpreted the Knight as 'mocking' him, leading to the violent turn of events, possibly culminating in the deaths of Bran's aunt, uncle and grandfather (depending of course on your interpretation of the 'events leading to TOJ').

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Well, there is the whole bit about both bran and bloodraven saying that it is impossible, but hey, when has that ever stopped a theory in this forum 

you need to be more forceful and direct when using a whip 

When it comes to this topic, there's no pleasing you!

[cgrav]

33 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

As you know, I agree with the sea/see continuum!

I think the 'rumbling of the waves' or 'language of the Leviathan' is the same thing as the 'rustling of the leaves' or 'True Tongue.'

M=R?

Burning after death seems to provide the same access symbolically, for example when Dany sees Drogo mounting the smoky stallion to the stars.

As you once noted, however, fire seems to give access exclusively to the present and future; whereas the weirwood gives access to the past as well -- or have you changed your mind on that distinction?

Definitely kidding on M = R... unless it somehow turns out to be true.

As for which aspect of the timeless realm burning opens up, I haven't changed my mind (not that I'm attached to any of my tentative conclusions), but if I recall, that was more narrowly about thematic symbolism. Now that the bigger concept is more fleshed out, I could see it being more like Weirwood access. 

This idea of fire as a portal (is a red door fire or blood or both?) meshes well with Mel's doctrine that the light/fire is what makes shadows. People go into the fire, murderous shadow demons come out. To wit: The hinge that is Melisandre screamed when the shadow came back through her bloody, fiery, red door. And that was only possible because Stannis put part of himself through it first, causing him to literally die a little bit. And of course the whole purpose of that was to get through a gate/wall that would not open for living people. 

This would seem to be the fire counterpart to the Black Gate representing the vagina and birth. And this all ties into the overarching theme of trying to mess with the natural order - when you try to become undead or unborn, there are consequences. Birth and death are one way doors, hence why Dany can't look back.

[Darry Man]

57 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Assuming we can trust what Bloodraven says in good faith, we should also recognise that Bloodraven can only report the parameters of greenseeing according to the limits of his own experience to date.  To his knowledge, making contact with those in the past is impossible-- which I understand in a very broad sense to mean, as I once discussed with you, that one human consciousness from the future makes itself known to another in the past.  However, just because it's true for Bloodraven doesn't mean it's necessarily going to be the same for his protege Bran, who is somewhat of a greenseeing prodigy.  Recall on Bran's first lesson -- let's call it 'Greenseeing 101 for promising naughty boys who like to climb higher than their parents want them to' -- Bloodraven gives Bran the instruction, with modest expectations, to follow the roots to the trees on the hill adjacent to the cave.  To his surprise, however, Bran ends up in a tree leagues away, at Winterfell; and moreover, in another timeframe entirely.  Actually, on his first greenseeing attempt he's landed up in a timeframe predating his own birth -- pretty impressive for a beginner!  That's like someone after just one surfing lesson surfing the Banzai Pipeline, or after just one skiing lesson whizzing straight down a 'black' piste without a problem.  I hope this argument pleases you and you will find it in your heart to comply... 

Varamyr learned from and then exceeded his master Haggon. No reason why this couldn't also apply to Bran and Bloodraven.

[ravenous reader]

30 minutes ago, cgrav said:

This idea of fire as a portal (is a red door fire or blood or both?) meshes well with Mel's doctrine that the light/fire is what makes shadows. People go into the fire, murderous shadow demons come out. To wit: The hinge that is Melisandre screamed when the shadow came back through her bloody, fiery, red door. And that was only possible because Stannis put part of himself through it first, causing him to literally die a little bit. And of course the whole purpose of that was to get through a gate/wall that would not open for living people. 

This would seem to be the fire counterpart to the Black Gate representing the vagina and birth. And this all ties into the overarching theme of trying to mess with the natural order - when you try to become undead or unborn, there are consequences. Birth and death are one way doors, hence why Dany can't look back

Brilliant stuff!  @LmL check it out.  @YOVMO -- you are missing out on the continuation of your 'hymen' idea!  

I think the 'red' encompasses both fire and blood.  One might say fire and blood are equivalent currency.

One of the consequences alluded to in the 'deal with the devil' is that Stannis was symbolically castrated.  The door is a 'vagina dentata', as in the dream Theon experiences when sleeping in Ned's weirwood bed:

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A Clash of Kings - Theon V

All his dreams had been cold of late, and each more hideous than the one before. Last night he had dreamed himself back in the mill again, on his knees dressing the dead. Their limbs were already stiffening, so they seemed to resist sullenly as he fumbled at them with half-frozen fingers, tugging up breeches and knotting laces, yanking fur-trimmed boots over hard unbending feet, buckling a studded leather belt around a waist no bigger than the span of his hands. "This was never what I wanted," he told them as he worked. "They gave me no choice." The corpses made no answer, but only grew colder and heavier.

The night before, it had been the miller's wife. Theon had forgotten her name, but he remembered her body, soft pillowy breasts and stretch marks on her belly, the way she clawed his back when he fucked her. Last night in his dream he had been in bed with her once again, but this time she had teeth above and below, and she tore out his throat even as she was gnawing off his manhood. It was madness. He'd seen her die too. Gelmarr had cut her down with one blow of his axe as she cried to Theon for mercy. Leave me, woman. It was him who killed you, not me. And he's dead as well. At least Gelmarr did not haunt Theon's sleep.

The dream had receded by the time Wex returned with the water. Theon washed the sweat and sleep from his body and took his own good time dressing. Asha had let him wait long enough; now it was her turn. He chose a satin tunic striped black and gold and a fine leather jerkin with silver studs . . . and only then remembered that his wretched sister put more stock in blades than beauty. Cursing, he tore off the clothes and dressed again, in felted black wool and ringmail. Around his waist he buckled sword and dagger, remembering the night she had humiliated him at his own father's table. Her sweet suckling babe, yes. Well, I have a knife too, and know how to use it.

The sexual trope of the woman clawing and arching her back while screaming is frequently used to describe skinchanging and the Lightbringer mythos, etc., most notably in the archetypal case of Thistle as weirwood being skinchanged by Varamyr:

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A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

He summoned all the strength still in him, leapt out of his own skin, and forced himself inside her.

Thistle arched her back and screamed.

Abomination. Was that her, or him, or Haggon? He never knew. His old flesh fell back into the snowdrift as her fingers loosened. The spearwife twisted violently, shrieking. His shadowcat used to fight him wildly, and the snow bear had gone half-mad for a time, snapping at trees and rocks and empty air, but this was worse. "Get out, get out!" he heard her own mouth shouting. Her body staggered, fell, and rose again, her hands flailed, her legs jerked this way and that in some grotesque dance as his spirit and her own fought for the flesh. She sucked down a mouthful of the frigid air, and Varamyr had half a heartbeat to glory in the taste of it and the strength of this young body before her teeth snapped together and filled his mouth with blood. She raised her hands to his face. He tried to push them down again, but the hands would not obey, and she was clawing at his eyes. Abomination, he remembered, drowning in blood and pain and madness. When he tried to scream, she spat their tongue out.

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind.