A question for the Forum: A mere hard drive stacked with data, or a gateway to another 'time'(as the Greenseer sees it).

[Dorian Martell's son]

20 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Oh dear, this really is ASOIAF forum flirting unfolding before my eyes isn't it?. 

One day a man (or maybe a woman?)  will flirt with you too. Just be patient. 

20 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Seriously though, Dorian, please keep that shit to yourself, my mind is not prepared to read your sordid thoughts, even if they are accompanied by cute wee faces. I'm sure our Ravenous reader feels the same. 

When puberty hits you will understand this sort of thing and it won't seem so scary and overwhelming. Again, patience.  Also, part of adulthood is learning to not speak for someone else. What goes on between Ravenous Reader and I is just that. Between us. If RR does not like the conversation, I will be made aware. 

20 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Perhaps if you were a more amiable fella and respected everyone's angle on the topic, you would come across sweet in this particular scenario, but alas, you have totally freaked me out with your talk of whips with accompanying heart emojis 
Weird.

you should learn the definition os words before you use them. Besides, plenty of folks find me amiable. Just not you. I mean, someone who calls me difficult is still flirting with me. Also, as time goes on and you start having adult relationships, things like talk of whips and heart emojis wont seem foreign and scary. Especially when you finally hit college

OK. Brass Tacks time 

17 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Right @Dorian Martell's son

Lets get right down to the bare bones of the matter and find some sort of resolve on this topic. 

I say this. GRRM is clearly telling us here that Brans voice materialises on Neds end as whispers on the wind and rustling leaves. To me, it's as clear as Rhaegar being dead, or Sandor being the gravedigger. Which is basically saying it is true but some will no doubt contest it for their own strange reasons. Here's the passage, again (sigh).

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

To me, GGRM is not telling us that Ned hears his sons voice, but he hears the sounds and actions of what his sons voice materialises as. You completely deny this? Is this your stance yes?.

You are free to think this. What I get out of that is that sentence is that Bran tries to speak via the tree and the only sound on Ned's end is rustling and wind.

“… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them,” he prayed, “and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …”

“Father.” Bran’s voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. “Father, it’s me. It’s Bran. Brandon.”
Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can’t."

The second time bran tries to speak to his dad, ned does not hear any wind noise or leaf rustling even though bran's voice is described in the exact same way. IF there was noise made, why did ned not react? The answer is that there was no noise. Ned didn't hear anything and the wind noise he heard the first time was a fluke

17 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Heres Bloodraven to back up GRRM:

"But," said Bran, "he heard me."

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves."

Bloodraven does not tell Bran that his voice never caused the whispering wind and the rustling leaves. If that was so, why wouldn't he tell him? Isn't that the perfect deterrent to stop Bran trying to talk with his father?. 

Brynden literally told Bran in no uncertain terms that Ned did not hear him. He then explained why Ned reacted in a way that appeared like he did. Notice ned does not react in any way the second time. As for why bloodraven does not say, "Bran, your voice did not cause the wind noise" to him? Well, The book was written long before we argued about this, It isn't a verse in keeping with how tree brynden talks and  exact explanations are rarely part of the series. when you combine this with the pair of quotes about how it is impossible to change the past, it means that bran speaking in the present cannot make the wind blow in the past because that would be affecting/influencing/changing the past. 

18 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

No, Bloodraven simply goes along with what GRRM confirms. Brans voice materialises at Neds end as whispering winds and rustling leaves but Ned can not understand what Brans saying, regardless of that, Brans words materialising as whispering winds and rustling leaves provoke a response from Ned.

You think differently yes?. 

Since the highlighted/underlined/bolded part directly contradicts what Bran and Bloodraven say about influencing the past, I can say without a doubt that you are incorrect

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 4/13/2017 at 4:43 PM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Hey MacGregor, I didn't read the whole three pages of shit here but to answer your question, I twigged (pun intended) what you're on about when you said "memory" - Bran is looking thru the eyes of the tree in an eternal present, since time works differently for a tree that's been alive for untold thousands of years. Trees don't have memory.

However, whether there's a practical difference between that and viewing the tree's memories, I don't think so. Unless Bran can influence events in the past, which opens up a paradoxical can of worms.

(And yes, he speaks to Theon, maybe, but that's in the present.)

This is pretty much it. We can nerd-argue until the next book comes out, but time travel, stable time loops, whatever you want to call it leaves way too many easy outs plot wise to be a part of the story. I am not sure why people want such a cheap story after 5 books but here we are 

[ravenous reader]

50 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

What goes on between Ravenous Reader and I is just that. Between us

Really?  Pray tell, what goes on between you and that ravenous?

In response, let me channel some Voice, who would reprimand you on your grammar:

Quote

Between you and me, the phrase "between you and I" grates on my ears like nails on a chalkboard. I hear the wrong version about 3 times as often as I hear it said the right way, so let’s get this straightened out once and for all.

Between is a preposition, and in English, a preposition must be followed by an indirect object pronoun. Me is an indirect object pronoun, while I is a subject pronoun . Therefore, between has to be followed by me, not I.

From:  http://www.elearnenglishlanguage.com/blog/english-mistakes/between-you-and-me-or-i/

 

50 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I mean, someone who calls me difficult is still flirting with me.

You presume too much sir, so get in line...:

And anyway, who needs to flirt with either you or Macgregor?   You are like an old married couple, an impregnable force unto yourselves!  

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

17 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Really?  Pray tell, what goes on between you and that ravenous?

In response, let me channel some Voice, who would reprimand you on your grammar:

 

You presume too much sir, so get in line...:

And anyway, who needs to flirt with either you or Macgregor?   You are like an old married couple, an impregnable force unto yourselves!  

What in god's name has been going on here

[ravenous reader]

1 minute ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

What in god's name has been going on here

Let's just stick to the deconstruction of the 'rustling', OK?

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

7 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Let's just stick to the deconstruction of the 'rustling', OK?

Are you rustling my jimmies?

[ravenous reader]

 

Just now, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Are you rustling my jimmies?

Nothing so profound (to be honest, I don't know what that means -- something dirty, like something you'd do in a remote Southern bar at 3 in the morning?)

All I care about is the leaves.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Just now, ravenous reader said:

 

Nothing so profound (to be honest, I don't know what that means -- something dirty, like something you'd do in a remote Southern bar at 3 in the morning?)

All I care about is the leaves.

Phew. For a minute there I thought my jimmies might have been rustled.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/that-really-rustled-my-jimmies

[Dorian Martell's son]

22 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Really?  Pray tell, what goes on between you and that ravenous?

Something that made Mr. Of the north really uncomfortable. Evidently, he was quite upset by the whole whips thing

24 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

In response, let me channel some Voice, who would reprimand you on your grammar:

I'm American. Grammar is as fluid as gender, sexuality, the value of the euro or the government of Ukraine. 

27 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

You presume too much sir, so get in line...:

I don't presume anything other than your repeated use of the whip emoji.  

29 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

And anyway, who needs to flirt with either you or Macgregor?   You are like an old married couple, an impregnable force unto yourselves!  

 He is quite attached to our back and forth. You are far more enjoyable to interact with, even in the face of how difficult I am 

[ravenous reader]

9 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

You are far more enjoyable to interact with, even in the face of how difficult I am 

Sometimes you are sweet.

Sometimes you even tell the truth.

10 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I'm American. Grammar is as fluid as gender, sexuality, the value of the euro or the government of Ukraine. 

Walt Whitman would be proud!

11 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Phew. For a minute there I thought my jimmies might have been rustled.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/that-really-rustled-my-jimmies

Poor gorilla!  I loved the meme 'We control the jimmies...we control the rustling...'

Are those greenseers?

[Dorian Martell's son]

5 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Sometimes you are sweet.

  

[Macgregor of the North]

@ravenous reader @Dorian Martell's son

Sorry about wait, the weekend is full of lots more rewarding activities than the forum. Let's clear this up right now though.

DM, in regards to the second time you say that Ned does not hear the whisper on the wind or the rustling of the leaves even though GRRM clearly tells us that Brans voice was a whisper on the wind and the rustling of the leaves, and you also say that Ned does not react in any way the second time. 

Ok, here's the first attempt by Bran. 

"Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.
"Winterfell," Bran whispered.

His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked, turning …...

....."But," said Bran, "he heard me." 

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

And here's the second.

… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak......"

Both times we see it confirmed by the authorities on the matter,  the author himself and Brans teacher in the story, that there was a whisper on the wind and a rustling of the leaves aren't we?.

The first time we see Bran tried to talk with his father and Bloodraven kindly tells us that all Ned heard was a whisper on the wind and a rustling of the leaves doesn't he?. Well we can't really deny that when the text shows as so:

"But," said Bran, "he heard me." 

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves."

Thanks for that Bloodraven.

The second time, even better for us, the author of the story very kindly tells us that Brans voice actually was the whisper on the wind and the rustling of the leaves. Not something we can really deny in the face of such straight to the point text like this:

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

So, both times we see that Neds reactions, turning to the tree the first time to actually ask "who's there". And then the second time to actually break from what he's saying mid sentence and frown long at the tree, are due to Ned hearing a whisper on the wind and a rustling of the leaves yes?. If Ned heard nothing the second time, like you say, he wouldn't have broke off mid sentence to frown long at the tree. 

Bloodraven basically spells it out for the stubborn non believers among us that Ned turned to ask who was there due to hearing the windy whispers and the rustling leaves and the author spells it out for us that Brans voice literally was the windy whispers and the rustling leaves, so therefore the only true take away from this is that Bran slips into the skin of the tree, talks at who he sees when he "gazes in to the past through such gates" as the magical Weirwood tree gateway as per his teachers words, but he can't talk with who he sees, try as he might because all that materialised from Brans voice at the other end both times was a whisper on the wind and a rustling of the leaves. 

Simple really yeah. And I'm sure you still think this conversation is about changing the past @Dorian Martell's son, It's not, and the sooner you get over that hurdle you will see what's going on here. The past remains the past, Bran cannot change it. 

So please, stop acting like this is what we are trying to prove to you. 

 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

@Dorian Martell's son

Ok take the stand please. And swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth and all that shit so help you.

Isn't it true that you have a personal hatred for the use of a time travel like trope in the ASOIAF saga. In your own words you would "detest" it if GRRM used this tired old trope in this story?. 

And is it not also true that it is GRRMS story he is writing, and he is not on this planet to please you and only you because you are so special?. 

You also keep harping on about how this trope is so old and tired and boring but if we step back and look at this, GRRM has had Brans arc thought out for over 20 years now so the only reason it feels such an old and tired trope is that there has been so much time between when he first conceived the idea for Brans arc, back in 91' (IIRC) when he was in the process of writing a Sci-Fi novel, and now.

There have been countless time travel type stories, books and films out since the early 1990's so yes, I guess the idea would seem overused and a little tired and boring to some but if GRRM had that idea from the start, he's certainly not gonna change it for you is he?. He will keep his main character plots because that's what a determined writer does. 

Do you think he will change Jon being Rhaegars son because that is now old and tired and been talked about probably millions of times now. 

I think not.

[ravenous reader]

@Macgregor of the North  I don't think it's possible to resolve this.  It's implied but not confirmed that Bran caused the rustling in the past.  Leaves also rustle without greenseer intervention.  How are you going to differentiate the 'two types of rustling'?  Or do you think all rustling is sent by the old gods, as Osha claims?  Dorian asserts that Ned raising his head at exactly that time to turn around and stare at a tree trunk may have an unrelated explanation -- a 'fluke' he calls it -- and how can we really disprove that?

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves.

 

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

It occurs to me that another reading of these lines might be that the greenseer's voice is so faint that it becomes lost amongst the leaves, drowned out by the sound of the wind.  Perhaps that's why Theon can only hear Bran clearly when the 'night was windless' -- without any competing sounds to muffle the message.  Think of it with reference to skinchanging Hodor.  In order to command Hodor's body, including his mind and voice, Bran must subdue Hodor, effectively silencing him in order to take over his voice.  Perhaps something analogous is involved in subduing nature and silencing the wind.  The greenseer then takes over, creating his own 'wind' with his own breath, speaking in lieu of the wind or as the wind.  How do we tell the two apart -- the 'natural' vs. the 'artificial' greenseer-created wind?  How would Bran's companions suspect Bran is skinchanging Hodor, if all he says is 'Hodor'..?  I would be very interested in future to read a scene of Bran attempting to communicate with someone in the past on a day/night without wind!

That said, what we can prove beyond a reasonable doubt is that Bran clearly communicated with Theon on that windless night in what we call the 'present'.  Theon confirms as much in TWOW:

Spoiler

The Winds of Winter - Theon I

"Don't you call him that." Then the words came spilling out of Theon in a rush. He tried to tell her all of it, about Reek and the Dreadfort and Kyra and the keys, how Lord Ramsay never took anything but skin unless you begged for it. He told her how he'd saved the girl, leaping from the castle wall into the snow. "We flew. Let Abel make a song of that, we flew." Then he had to say who Abel was, and talk about the washerwomen who weren't truly washerwomen. By then Theon knew how strange and incoherent all this sounded, yet somehow the words would not stop. He was cold and sick and tired... and weak, so weak, so very weak.

She has to understand. She is my sister. He never wanted to do any harm to Bran or Rickon. Reek made him kill those boys, not him Reek but the other one. "I am no kinslayer," he insisted. He told her how he bedded down with Ramsay's bitches, warned her that Winterfell was full of ghosts. "The swords were gone. Four, I think, or five. I don't recall. The stone kings are angry." He was shaking by then, trembling like an autumn leaf. "The heart tree knew my name. The old gods. Theon, I heard them whisper. There was no wind but the leaves were moving. Theon, they said. My name is Theon." It was good to say the name. The more he said it, the less like he was to forget. "You have to know your name," he'd told his sister. "You... you told me you were Esgred, but that was a lie. Your name is Asha."

 

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Do you think he will change Jon being Rhaegars son because that is now old and tired and been talked about probably millions of times now.

For the record, I don't think it's clear that Jon is Rhaegar's son -- another example of something strongly implied but never confirmed.  The reason it's talked about 'millions of times' is because GRRM has couched it in ample obfuscation and evasion so that there's still sufficient wriggle room for alternative theories.  Perhaps Rhaegar's even a red herring.

[Macgregor of the North]

9 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

@Macgregor of the North  I don't think it's possible to resolve this.  It's implied but not confirmed that Bran caused the rustling in the past.  Leaves also rustle without greenseer intervention.  How are you going to differentiate the 'two types of rustling'?  Or do you think all rustling is sent by the old gods, as Osha claims?  Dorian asserts that Ned raising his head at exactly that time to turn around and stare at a tree trunk may have an unrelated explanation -- a 'fluke' he calls it -- and how can we really disprove that?

 

It occurs to me that another reading of these lines might be that the greenseer's voice is so faint that it becomes lost amongst the leaves, drowned out by the sound of the wind.  Perhaps that's why Theon can only hear Bran clearly when the 'night was windless' -- without any competing sounds to muffle the message.  Think of it with reference to skinchanging Hodor.  In order to command Hodor's body, including his mind and voice, Bran must subdue Hodor, effectively silencing him in order to take over his voice.  Perhaps something analogous is involved in subduing nature and silencing the wind.  The greenseer then takes over, creating his own 'wind' with his own breath, speaking in lieu of the wind or as the wind.  How do we tell the two apart -- the 'natural' vs. the 'artificial' greenseer-created wind?  How would Bran's companions suspect Bran is skinchanging Hodor, if all he says is 'Hodor'..?  I would be very interested in future to read a scene of Bran attempting to communicate with someone in the past on a day/night without wind!

That said, what we can prove beyond a reasonable doubt is that Bran clearly communicated with Theon on that windless night in what we call the 'present'.  Theon confirms as much in TWOW:

  Hide contents

The Winds of Winter - Theon I

"Don't you call him that." Then the words came spilling out of Theon in a rush. He tried to tell her all of it, about Reek and the Dreadfort and Kyra and the keys, how Lord Ramsay never took anything but skin unless you begged for it. He told her how he'd saved the girl, leaping from the castle wall into the snow. "We flew. Let Abel make a song of that, we flew." Then he had to say who Abel was, and talk about the washerwomen who weren't truly washerwomen. By then Theon knew how strange and incoherent all this sounded, yet somehow the words would not stop. He was cold and sick and tired... and weak, so weak, so very weak.

She has to understand. She is my sister. He never wanted to do any harm to Bran or Rickon. Reek made him kill those boys, not him Reek but the other one. "I am no kinslayer," he insisted. He told her how he bedded down with Ramsay's bitches, warned her that Winterfell was full of ghosts. "The swords were gone. Four, I think, or five. I don't recall. The stone kings are angry." He was shaking by then, trembling like an autumn leaf. "The heart tree knew my name. The old gods. Theon, I heard them whisper. There was no wind but the leaves were moving. Theon, they said. My name is Theon." It was good to say the name. The more he said it, the less like he was to forget. "You have to know your name," he'd told his sister. "You... you told me you were Esgred, but that was a lie. Your name is Asha."

 

For the record, I don't think it's clear that Jon is Rhaegar's son -- another example of something strongly implied but never confirmed.  The reason it's talked about 'millions of times' is because GRRM has couched it in sufficient obfuscation and evasion so that there's still sufficient wriggle room for alternative theories.  Perhaps Rhaegar's even a red herring.

I believe it's more like it's spelled out rather than strongly implied. We're told Ned hears a whisper on the wind and a rustling of the leaves and we're told by the author that Brans voice was a whisper on the wind and a rustling of the leaves. To me that's pretty clear anyway. I think DM is letting his own hatred for a particular trope being used in this story cloud his judgement on this matter. It's pretty set in stone for me and I envision returning to this topic to discuss this with you guys after Winds and Dream comes out if you guys are still on the forum and we will say, you know what Mac, you were right man. Well you might, DM likely won't haha because he would dispute that the sky is blue during the day. 

On Osha, GRRM has described book Osha as simply a plot device and he uses her there to clue us readers into the fact that whispering winds and rustling leaves from a Weirwood tree is what she classes as the Gods talking. In Brans case, he is at one with the Godhood of the Old Gods having become wed to the trees, so he can become present in a certain "time" if he chooses, since to the trees there is no distinction in "time", there is no "past" or "present", and his words can carry through and become rustling leaves and whispering winds. It's quite simple to me but we all interpret the books how we want.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

@ravenous reader I want to make clear I don't think that every time the leaves rustle that is a Greenseer attempting to contact someone. I do believe though that this is what GRRM wants us to associate Greenseers trying to talk people with. The rustling of the leaves and that whispery wind sound is something I believe he very clearly wants us to connect with Greenseers talking through the trees, and Osha explaining that to Bran early in the story is using her as the plot device she is to set some kind of foundation for Brans plot later on. And lo and behold we later see him able to gaze into the past through the magical Weirwood tree gateway and his voice materialises as whispering winds and rustling leaves. 

On Rhaegar being Jon's father, whether you believe that or not my point is that say there is a fact such as that and it's a very very big part of GRRMS plan right from the start, I don't think he's gonna change something like that because it becomes a tired old idea. You see my point? 

So if GRRM has decided to make a time travel type trope part of Brans arc in the very early 90s. I don't think he's going to change that just because certain book readers think that a certain time travel trope has become an old and tired idea because there have been so many time travel stories and films came out in the past twenty something years. He will stick with it I believe and anybody who doesn't like it, well that's tough isn't it really. That seems like GRRMS character to me going by interviews I've read. He does things his way and that's that. You see where I'm coming from.

[Macgregor of the North]

@ravenous reader

On Theon seeing the leaves rustle and hearing the whisper clearly while there was no wind, I started a thread about that a while back. 

I always wondered if it was a way to show us that Brans greenseeing powers had progressed possibly?. If we remember Brans three ADWD chapters are early on in the book and as the story progresses past the timeline of AFFC, we hear no more from Bran in the cave, well except for his time with Theon, which is pretty much 'Winds' territory now isn't it?. 

Its safe to assume Bran is stronger with his gift by this time I think. Maybe that was GRRMS way of showing us that?. 

[ravenous reader]

@Macgregor of the North  I definitely don't think GRRM is swayed by what others find cheesy or not.  I find the idea of Tyrion Targaryen the little latent dragonrider-in-hiding terribly trite, yet that doesn't appear to have dissuaded him much from again 'strongly implying' A+J=T!

Regarding the 'time travel trope', there's this interesting account of the conception of non-linear time according to Norse mythology, centred around the world tree Yggdrasil upon which GRRM has based his weirwood concept, with Odin being a greenseer analogue.  Herewith an excerpt:

Quote

A Model of Time and Destiny

It’s important to keep in mind that the image of Yggdrasil and the Well of Urd is a myth, and therefore portrays the perceived meaning or essence of something rather than merely describing the thing’s physical characteristics. Yggdrasil and the Well of Urd weren’t thought of as existing in a single physical location, but rather dwell within the invisible heart of anything and everything.

Fundamentally, this image expresses the indigenous Germanic perspective on the concepts of time and destiny.

As Paul Bauschatz points out in his landmark study The Well and the Tree: World and Time in Early Germanic Culture, Yggdrasil and the Well of Urd correspond to the two tenses of Germanic languages. Even modern English, a Germanic language, still has only two tenses: 1) the past tense, which includes events that are now over (“It rained”) as well as those that began in the past and are still happening (“It has been raining”), and 2) the present tense, which describes events that are currently happening (“It is raining”). Unlike Romance languages such as Spanish or French, for example, Germanic languages have no true future tense. Instead, they use certain verbs in the present tense to express something similar to futurity, such as “will” or “shall” (“I will go to the party” or “It shall rain”). Rather than “futurity,” however, what these verbs express could more accurately be called “intention” or “necessity.”

The Well of Urd corresponds to the past tense. It is the reservoir of completed or ongoing actions that nourish the tree and influence its growth. Yggdrasil, in turn, corresponds to the present tense, that which is being actualized here and now.

What of intention and necessity, then? This is the water that permeates the image, flowing up from the well into the tree, dripping from the leaves of the tree as dew, and returning to the well, where it then seeps back up into the tree.[5]

Here, time is cyclical rather than linear. The present returns to the past, where it retroactively changes the past. The new past, in turn, is reabsorbed into a new present, whose originality is an outgrowth of the give-and-take between the waters of the well and the the waters of the tree.

This provides a framework within which we can understand the Germanic view of destiny. The residents of the Well of Urd, the Norns, design the earliest form of the destinies of all of the beings who live in the Nine Worlds of Yggdrasil, from humans to slugs to gods to giants. In contrast to the Greek concept of fate, however, all beings who are subject to destiny have some degree of agency in shaping their own destiny and the destinies of others – this is the dew that falls back into the well from the branches of the tree, accordingly reshaping the past and its influence upon the present. All beings do this passively; those who practice magic do it actively. (In fact, one could accurately say that, in the surviving accounts of the practice of magic in ancient Germanic societies, magic is viewed as being precisely the process of gaining a greater degree of control over destiny.) There is no absolutely free will, just as there is no absolutely unalterable fate; instead, life is lived somewhere between these two extremes. A fuller discussion of the ancient Germanic view of destiny can be found here.

From:  http://norse-mythology.org/cosmology/yggdrasil-and-the-well-of-urd/

P.S.  You don't have to persuade me that GRRM is using words like 'rustling', 'whispering,' 'stirring,' 'plucking,' etc. as 'code' for greenseers.  Please refer to my contributions on 'Bran's growing powers' re-read thread started by @evita mgfs, whom I still consider to be the foremost expert on Bran's chapters, despite her absence from the forum of late.  And you have only to visit my poetry thread to understand that I enjoy drawing conclusions from highly figurative language.  However, we should also acknowledge that others may have less stomach for relying on these symbolic leaps of faith.  

[Macgregor of the North]

25 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

@Macgregor of the North  I definitely don't think GRRM is swayed by what others find cheesy or not.  I find the idea of Tyrion Targaryen the little latent dragonrider-in-hiding terribly trite, yet that doesn't appeared to have dissuaded him much from again 'strongly implying' A+J=T!

Regarding the 'time travel trope', there's this interesting account of the conception of non-linear time according to Norse mythology, centred around the world tree Yggdrasil upon which GRRM has based his weirwood concept, with Odin being a greenseer analogue.  Herewith an excerpt:

P.S.  You don't have to persuade me that GRRM is using words like 'rustling', 'whispering,' 'stirring,' 'plucking,' etc. as 'code' for greenseers.  Please refer to my contributions on 'Bran's growing powers' re-read thread started by @evita mgfs, whom I still consider to be the foremost expert on Bran's chapters, despite her absence from the forum of late.  And you have only to visit my poetry thread to understand that I enjoy drawing conclusions from highly figurative language.  However, we should also acknowledge that others may have less stomach for relying on these symbolic leaps of faith.  

Is this to say that me and you are almost at some sort of harmony on this topic, perhaps not full agreement on every single detail, but at least on the same page, while others, well, Dorian to be straight to the point, are not. 

Simply put RR, do you believe that through the magical gateway such as the Weirwood trees that lets Greenseers literally gaze into what we the readers class as the past and does not view "time" as "time" like we do and treats past and present with no distinction, Bran is able to be the cause of an action due to an action of his own while he is at one with the tree and has slipped into its roots, effectively "becoming the tree" as he says. 

Do you think this is what's happening in the story we love?. It certainly seems you do but are reluctant to just say the words. 

[cgrav]

On 4/14/2017 at 11:34 PM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Phew. For a minute there I thought my jimmies might have been rustled.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/that-really-rustled-my-jimmies

We need a sub forum for ASOIF memes. And a separate one for lame show memes.