I want to read TWOW NOW !

[rotting sea cow]

We all do. There are times the feeling is almost unbearable, but I don't want it out and feel unsatisfied because of quick and cheap wrap ups. There is still anyway much to read about these books, as we see in this forum.

 

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I expect ADOS will be out in less time than people expect. Certain types of authors get stuck in the middle but once they resolve those middle-of-the-book issues, they get faster heading toward the end.

I think it's indeed possible. There are have been external distractions but also a very complicate plot to wrap up. Also characters like Bran post-enlightenment, Daenerys post-ascension and Jon post-resurrection may be more difficult to write. Once this is solved, things can become easier.

Anyway, the probabilities that GRRM will need more than two books to finish the series are in my opinion pretty high.

 

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

-if the truth of Aegon's identity is revealed at all, I think it will be in this book
-Aegon sitting the Iron Throne, however briefly that might be
-Margaery's death
-Tommen's death
-Myrcella's death
-Cersei's death and the identity of the valonqar
-the second Dance of Dragons
-the Wall falling, be it physically or metaphorically
-a Trial of Seven (more of a wishlist thing than an expectation really)
-quite a few more deaths
-Arya returning to Westeros
-Dany and Tyrion returning to Westeros
-Tyrion taking Casterly Rock by going through the sewers
-somebody--anybody at this point--being revealed as the final Blackfyre pretender
-an attempted FM hit on Dany

I doubt these things will happen in TWOW, at best the Wall will fall towards the end and Dany will set sail about the same time.

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

-Dolorous Edd being killed and turned into a Coldhands-like wight, thus fulfilling his accidental prophecy about having to keep working after he's dead

I like this

[rotting sea cow]

32 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

If there's a technical issue presenting GRRM difficulties, personally I think it's the lack of the 5-yr gap. He planned to age up those characters for a reason, and now he's running into the endgame with half the leads being 5 yrs younger than planned. What sort of problems does that cause? Who knows?

Well, much of what happened in Feast&Dance was supposed to occur during the gap. Among the problems

- Dragons still too small

- Certain characters still too young. Like pre-adolescent Arya in the somewhat creepy Mercy chapter.

- Overall character developments too fast. Bran requiring mere months to become a powerful greenseer, Arya becoming FM very quickly. Etc.

Anyway, the problems that killing the gap avoided were much bigger. Five years with Stannis at the Wall, doing nothing? Can you imagine that?  The northmen swallowing Bolton BS for five years? Cersei being able to hold the realm for five years? Etc.

 

Quote

And what sort of complications are there, tying the new material back into the clues left in books 1-3?

Biggest problem is how to bring Dany to Westeros in a timely fashion.  Not to late, not too soon. She is now in the Dothraki Sea and soon will be at Vaes Dothrak, but collecting the khalasars will take a lot of time. Wraping up the remaining Essos conflicts also a bit more. This is not only narrative space problem (certain things need to be described), it also causes problems for the other timelines which must meet  at certain points. 

BTW, I fairly convinced that an extended time line (where certain things take a bit longer) is probably very helpful for most characters.

Also characters like Bran post-enlightenment, Daenerys post-ascension and Jon post-resurrection may be more difficult to write.

 

 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Anyway, the problems that killing the gap avoided were much bigger.

Disagree. The problem wasn't that keeping the gap caused narrative difficulties: it was that the gap wasn't properly set up. Arya isn't even in Braavos at the end of ASOS, let alone has she made the decision to throw away all her shit (except the sword): that's the end of an arc, and the point at which her story could've paused.

There are a shit-ton of other examples, although one's mileage may vary for all of them. Either way, I am happy to debate the tits off it.

But my bigger point is that using book 4 to properly set up the time jump and letting it serve as a sort of transitional thing would have been a much better solution to his problem. Could've saved himself twenty years of agita. But instead he wanted each book to be a relatively self-contained affair with a beginning, middle and end, rather than a mere volume in a larger story. And for all that he talks about ASOIAF being one large story, it's clearly not: it's (so far) a series of 4 books.

(And yes, I am counting AFFC and ADWD as one book, because they are. Well, 95% of a book: there's some shit missing that got pushed to TWOW.)

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Biggest problem is how to bring Dany to Westeros in a timely fashion...

No, no, no, I said tying the new stuff into the old clues, i.e. making Gerold Dayne fit the shape that 5 yrs older Edric Dayne was supposed to fill, shit like that. (All speculative, of course.)

[Queen of Procrastination]

15 hours ago, zandru said:

Okay - so let's ponder this one. Once the Winds of Winter is out, how long before anybody can post anything about it here? I mean, SPOILERS!!!!!!  Must the rest of us wait months? Years?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think for the first six months after TWOW has been released we can only post about it in the General section if we use spoilertags. However, there is also the TWOW subforum and over there we should be able to to discuss it without using spoiler tags as soon as it's released. 

[KingMance]

18 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

-Dolorous Edd being killed and turned into a Coldhands-like wight, thus fulfilling his accidental prophecy about having to keep working after he's dead

If this is the only thing that happens in book 6 I'm totally fine with it.

[rotting sea cow]

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Disagree. The problem wasn't that keeping the gap caused narrative difficulties: it was that the gap wasn't properly set up.

It is almost equivalent. ASOS didn't prepare the gap, so making the gap happens caused narrative difficulties. But I also don't see - given any possible combinations of events - how the gap could possibly work.

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Arya isn't even in Braavos at the end of ASOS, let alone has she made the decision to throw away all her shit (except the sword): that's the end of an arc, and the point at which her story could've paused.

GRRM himself stated that the gap worked for character in isolation, Sansa, Arya, Bran. I'd guess Theon too. But those who are interacting are much complicated. It is not conceivable that "nothing" happens. 

 

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

But my bigger point is that using book 4 to properly set up the time jump and letting it serve as a sort of transitional thing would have been a much better solution to his problem.

Maybe, but still you get into troubles. Characters and situations have their own lives. Stannis wouldn't keep still, the northmen would not stand the Boltons, Dany's reforms will cause geopolitical problems, etc.  And this escalates. Cersei reasonably in power will not tolerate Stannis at the Wall. The rumors of Dany and her dragons will become certain in that timespan and KL will not sit idle. So, the problem was already there, probably from the very beginnings as the broad strokes were already painted. 

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Could've saved himself twenty years of agita. But instead he wanted each book to be a relatively self-contained affair with a beginning, middle and end, rather than a mere volume in a larger story. And for all that he talks about ASOIAF being one large story, it's clearly not: it's (so far) a series of 4 books.

There is clearly evolution in the books. ADWD is a very different book compared with AGOT, because the author has also evolved during this time. I'm actually quite happy with it.

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

(And yes, I am counting AFFC and ADWD as one book, because they are. Well, 95% of a book: there's some shit missing that got pushed to TWOW.)

People often put Feast&Dance together because they share the timeline. Somehow, I cannot see this. Thematically they are different. For me Feast looks more like an interim book until Dance was ready.

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

No, no, no, I said tying the new stuff into the old clues, i.e. making Gerold Dayne fit the shape that 5 yrs older Edric Dayne was supposed to fill, shit like that. (All speculative, of course.)

But this is minor stuff. Sure they are things from previous books we don't hear about in Feast&Dance, like the Black Gate or Robb's Will, but they are relatively unimportant in the larger context.  The problem is how make our heroes to interact in a way that contributes to the story. This was the point of the Meereenese knot (solved now).  Particularly important there is timing the arrival of Tyrion.

It is the same now, I'd guess. The arrival of Dany and her dragons must be timely. If she arrives too late, the Wall has already fallen and the Others are sweeping Westeros, whilst she still entangled in Essos.  Too soon and she doesn't let Aegon to take the IT and leaves chaos in her wake.

[Lion of the West]

I also want it, but I've come to resign myself to wait for this goodness for when it comes.

[Good Guy Garlan]

3 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

But my bigger point is that using book 4 to properly set up the time jump and letting it serve as a sort of transitional thing would have been a much better solution to his problem. Could've saved himself twenty years of agita. But instead he wanted each book to be a relatively self-contained affair with a beginning, middle and end, rather than a mere volume in a larger story. And for all that he talks about ASOIAF being one large story, it's clearly not: it's (so far) a series of 4 books.

(And yes, I am counting AFFC and ADWD as one book, because they are. Well, 95% of a book: there's some shit missing that got pushed to TWOW.)

Aww hell no, by no means are AFFC and ADWD a single book, even counting them together. They don't even have an ending, for crying out loud. They're barely a book, let alone a complete one. 

As for the gap, I think that's a convenient scapegoat, but the real problem runs deeper: after ASOS GRRM changed his pace completely, became self-indulgent and decided to include EVERY SINGLE DETAIL.The books became travelogs and the plot screeched to a halt. Also, he abandoned his own rule of only giving POVs to a handful of characters, which in previous books had worked nicely to limit the scope of the story. Suddenly everyone and their moms have a POV, so GRRM can expand the story in any direction he wants, economy of plot be damned.

So even with the gap, the story wouldn't have advanced if all we've got was filler. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

30 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Aww hell no, by no means are AFFC and ADWD a single book, even counting them together. They don't even have an ending, for crying out loud. They're barely a book, let alone a complete one. 

As for the gap, I think that's a convenient scapegoat, but the real problem runs deeper: after ASOS GRRM changed his pace completely, became self-indulgent and decided to include EVERY SINGLE DETAIL.The books became travelogs and the plot screeched to a halt. Also, he abandoned his own rule of only giving POVs to a handful of characters, which in previous books had worked nicely to limit the scope of the story. Suddenly everyone and their moms have a POV, so GRRM can expand the story in any direction he wants, economy of plot be damned.

So even with the gap, the story wouldn't have advanced if all we've got was filler. 

Fair point. (Although to be fair the pace of the story notably picked up in ASOS, when he suddenly figured out how to advance the plot and reveal character at the same time, something that was absent from the first two books.)

I actually think the indulgence is partially a lack of editing, and I think that stems, definitely in ADWD's case, from the publisher putting their foot down and saying enough is enough, we're going to press whether it's finished or not.

As for why all this happened... I love the rumour I once saw where some Anonymous Andy pretending to be an author with inside knowledge explained that GRRM had thrown a hissy fit circa the late 90's after someone online guessed his ending perfectly, and so ever since then he's been trying to change it up while still fitting it to the original clues and foreshadowing etc. Now, I know logically that that story is bullshit - but I can't help but hope that Anonymous Andy will reemerge and put a name to his story. Wouldn't that be great, to know for sure? GRRM would probably have a heart attack from the pressure, though

ETA: sidebar: just had a good chuckle reading his blog:

Quote

The bookshop at the Jean Cocteau Cinema is having a special for the rest of the month on autographed copies of HIGH STAKES, the latest volume in the Wild Cards series.

HIGH STAKES normally retails for $27.99, but for the rest of the month we're cutting five dollars off and offering it for $22.99... while the supply lasts.

http://combiboilersleeds.com/image.php?pic=/images/laughing/laughing-0.jpg

Yeah George, I'm sure they're flying out the door. Especially with that red hot 18% discount!

[Good Guy Garlan]

6 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Fair point. (Although to be fair the pace of the story notably picked up in ASOS, when he suddenly figured out how to advance the plot and reveal character at the same time, something that was absent from the first two books.)

I actually think the indulgence is partially a lack of editing, and I think that stems, definitely in ADWD's case, from the publisher putting their foot down and saying enough is enough, we're going to press whether it's finished or not.

As for why all this happened... I love the rumour I once saw where some Anonymous Andy pretending to be an author with inside knowledge explained that GRRM had thrown a hissy fit circa the late 90's after someone online guessed his ending perfectly, and so ever since then he's been trying to change it up while still fitting it to the original clues and foreshadowing etc. Now, I know logically that that story is bullshit - but I can't help but hope that Anonymous Andy will reemerge and put a name to his story. Wouldn't that be great, to know for sure? GRRM would probably have a heart attack from the pressure, though

Yeah, it seems to be the classic problem of an author getting too big to edit. Plus, and this is just a feeling I get (obviously I know jackshit about GRRM's personal life) but I think he surrounds himself with, let's say enablers, for lack of a better word, who don't provide honest feedback on the books and say everything's just great the way it is. I remember that Winter guy (from the former Winter is Coming site) at least giving his refreshingly honest take on ADWD, even though he was one of the people GRRM dedicated the book to. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

2 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I remember that Winter guy (from the former Winter is Coming site) at least giving his refreshingly honest take on ADWD, even though he was one of the people GRRM dedicated the book to. 

Linkypoo?

[Good Guy Garlan]

7 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Linkypoo?

Ugh, I can't find it. (I don't even know how to look for it, I'm such a sad failure).

29 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

ETA: sidebar: just had a good chuckle reading his blog:

http://combiboilersleeds.com/image.php?pic=/images/laughing/laughing-0.jpg

Yeah George, I'm sure they're flying out the door. Especially with that red hot 18% discount!

Omg, this is the most precious thing I've ever seen. 

[Good Guy Garlan]

Found it! I'm a rockstar!

http://winteriscoming.net/2011/07/12/a-dance-with-dragons-has-released/#

Quote

I would argue that if it takes nearly 1,000 pages to “move the chess pieces into place” than you have lost control of your story.

I was disappointed in ADWD as well. Overall there was just too much filler and not enough plot progression. Too many overused phrases and overused plot devices (another fakeout death? really George?). It probably didn’t help that many of the twists (Bloodraven= 3EC, baby Aegon is alive, Tyrion getting captured by slavers, Jon is “killed”) were spoiled ahead of time either through fan speculation, advance reviews or jerkwads on the internet.

But even those big moments were surrounded by so much filler that if they had been surprises I don’t think my overall impression of the book would change. George really, really needs a strong editor. I think Anne Groell has become too much a fan and not enough of an editor. I would wager that someone could take the crucial plot developments of AFFC and ADWD and combine them into one book just by cutting much of the filler and meandering plotlines. In fact, I really hope someone does that. Now THAT would be an awesome fourth book.

But the letdown that is ADWD hasn’t killed my enthusiasm for the show. Just the opposite in fact. I think I am now a bigger GoT fan than ASOIAF fan. The show is my chance to relive the days when A Song of Ice and Fire was great.

Mad respect for that dude. Takes balls to be this honest about a book dedicated to you, but it shows the difference between the true admirers and the fanboys. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

1 minute ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Found it! I'm a rockstar!

http://winteriscoming.net/2011/07/12/a-dance-with-dragons-has-released/#

Mad respect for that dude. Takes balls to be this honest about a book dedicated to you, but it shows the difference between the true admirers and the fanboys. 

Hear hear

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Right now, i want some icecream... in 2018 i'll start thinking about WOW, i prefer a great book in a couple of years than being sorry for the rest of my life

[Ser Kinslayer]

20 hours ago, zandru said:

I think you're right. George RR has recently mentioned that, the closer he comes to the end, the easier it is to write and bring things together. Lately, he's been initiating more and more stuff - a studio to assist movie makers (Stagecoach Productions), a studio incubator thingy for aspiring artists (Dragonstone Studios), a scholarship for up and coming sf writers...  I keep telling myself, he's kicking back for the moment, because the whole text is in the hands of the editors.

For the gods' sake, don't wake me up.

I would love for you to be correct, but George has mentioned several times that he's still working on WoW. In fact, he emphasized that he's "always" working on it. Let's hope it comes out sooner rather than later 

 

My honest prediction is this upcoming December, during the heart of Winter.

[PCK]

6 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Well, much of what happened in Feast&Dance was supposed to occur during the gap. Among the problems

- Dragons still too small

- Certain characters still too young. Like pre-adolescent Arya in the somewhat creepy Mercy chapter.

- Overall character developments too fast. Bran requiring mere months to become a powerful greenseer, Arya becoming FM very quickly. Etc.

Anyway, the problems that killing the gap avoided were much bigger. Five years with Stannis at the Wall, doing nothing? Can you imagine that?  The northmen swallowing Bolton BS for five years? Cersei being able to hold the realm for five years? Etc.

 

Biggest problem is how to bring Dany to Westeros in a timely fashion.  Not to late, not too soon. She is now in the Dothraki Sea and soon will be at Vaes Dothrak, but collecting the khalasars will take a lot of time. Wraping up the remaining Essos conflicts also a bit more. This is not only narrative space problem (certain things need to be described), it also causes problems for the other timelines which must meet  at certain points. 

BTW, I fairly convinced that an extended time line (where certain things take a bit longer) is probably very helpful for most characters.

Also characters like Bran post-enlightenment, Daenerys post-ascension and Jon post-resurrection may be more difficult to write.

 

 

 

Stannis could have gone to the Free Cities or elsewhere to rebuild his armies. The Boltons holding WF for 5 years isn't that unrealistic, especially without any Starks to rally around. England survived 20 years of Edward II, Westeros probably, maybe could have done 5 with Cersei. I wonder how different that part of the story would look.

[ftheking]

I'm very grateful there is no 5 year gap. That's just depressing to have the characters float around for 5 years and mostly achieve nothing or if they achieve something not be there to witness it. I don't think it would have ever felt the same afterwards.Time jumps almost always suck.  I do wish the kids would have been a little older from the start, though. 

I also really want ot read WoW RIGHT NOW.

[rotting sea cow]

1 hour ago, PCK said:

Stannis could have gone to the Free Cities or elsewhere to rebuild his armies.

"Did you turn into an utter fool when Tyrion shaved your beard? This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some. If he is gone, it can only mean he intends to resume the war. Most likely he will land at Storm's End and try and rouse the storm lords. If so, he's finished. But a bolder man might roll the dice for Dorne. If he should win Sunspear to his cause, he might prolong this war for years."

- Tywin Lannister

 

 

[rotting sea cow]

2 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

As for the gap, I think that's a convenient scapegoat, but the real problem runs deeper: after ASOS GRRM changed his pace completely, became self-indulgent and decided to include EVERY SINGLE DETAIL.The books became travelogs and the plot screeched to a halt. Also, he abandoned his own rule of only giving POVs to a handful of characters, which in previous books had worked nicely to limit the scope of the story. Suddenly everyone and their moms have a POV, so GRRM can expand the story in any direction he wants, economy of plot be damned.

So even with the gap, the story wouldn't have advanced if all we've got was filler. 

No, no, no, no, no!

If you are plot-addicted, I may understand you dislike ADWD, however that book (and also partially AFFC) set up such a strong groundwork for TWOW, that I'd wager we will be barely able to breath until the middle of the book, when things will slow a bit.

Feast&Dance describe the aftermath of tWo5K, the unstable and unjust peace, the actions of the "crows" that feed on battle carrion, the efforts of some to bring reforms and the failure of them, the inner travels of the characters.  Could have been all combined in a single book without losing its richness? Maybe, but it wasn't and although I'm somewhat critical of Feast (, I love Dance, because it is the most complex of the books.