Recurring phrasings in the books

[Philokles]

7 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

When did "much and more" rear it's ugly head for the first time?

Jon III in ACOK.

AGOT - 0
ACOK - 1
ASOS - 5
AFFC - 10
ADWD - 30

 

7 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

And Brianne's "highborn maid of three and ten" (though here I have the suspicion that it didn't happen half as much as I remember because I disliked it so much)

He seemingly changed his style of describing teenagers between ASOS and AFFC. That formula was only used once beforehand.

[Philokles]

16 minutes ago, Robert Baratheon's hammer said:

''Tyrion waddled'' was prominent in ADWD. 

Used pretty evenly in the four books Tyrion appears in. Most common is ASOS with 5 instances.

 

25 minutes ago, cgrav said:

And re: mashed neeps - neeps are turnips, a root vegetable, and most root veggies are harvested during the cold seasons. They appear in DWD because Winter is coming.

Good to know there is some explanation for that.

 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I think Asha is the only one to use this word, unless I'm mistaken.

It is mainly used by Asha, but is also spoken by a few other characters such as Jaime around the same time. The phrase probably just got stuck in his head from when he was deliberately using it for Asha.

[maudisdottir]

On 4/14/2017 at 6:12 AM, Adam Targaryen said:

 I could probably come up with fifty more 

Don't you mean "half a hundred"?

[cgrav]

26 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

Don't you mean "half a hundred"?

1 followed by more than a single zero actually has symbolic significance. 100, 1000, 10,000, "a thousand thousand"... are references to the hypothesized (proven I'd opine) moon meteor disaster.

[Joy Hill]

My least favorite has got to be "words are wind". But I do love "have you taken leave of your wits/senses".

[Therae]

"Mummers farce" is my least favorite.

There's also "sweet sister," which apparently only happens 80 times but feels like 800.

[Prof. Cecily]

20 hours ago, Seams said:

I also searched on "broom" yesterday and found that it is used rarely but it seems to be a key symbol for some major characters, representing who has power or ability and who doesn't. It was very telling to me that Daario shows flowers to Dany to teach her "about the land," and one of the flowers is called broom.

Broom is a plant of the gorse family

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genisteae

Sometimes a broom is just a broom

 

[Therae]

34 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Broom is a plant of the gorse family

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genisteae

Sometimes a broom is just a broom

 

Wasn't it a spring of broom that the future Henry II's dad wore in his cap that gave the family the name Plantagenet?

I am inclined to agree that many brooms are just brooms, but this one might have a tiny bit of allusion.

[Prof. Cecily]

38 minutes ago, Therae said:

Wasn't it a spring of broom that the future Henry II's dad wore in his cap that gave the family the name Plantagenet?

I am inclined to agree that many brooms are just brooms, but this one might have a tiny bit of allusion.

Good catch! So it was.

Cersei as Queen Eleanor corrupting her sons, or as the She-Wolf of France?

By the way, I love your avatar. I've seen that particular fresco and catching glimpses of it here just reminds me of ...that place.

[Therae]

14 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Good catch! So it was.

Cersei as Queen Eleanor corrupting her sons, or as the She-Wolf of France?

By the way, I love your avatar. I've seen that particular fresco and catching glimpses of it here just reminds me of ...that place.

I suppose the most obvious connection would have been Rhaenyra as Maude, but I don't recall if any of her gents wore broom in their caps.  Maybe it was Daario's way of telling Dany that he was descended from Geoffrey of Anjou?

And thank you! I have never been there, alas, but I would love to visit eventually (it being the source of my handle and all).

[Seams]

22 hours ago, Snowmelter said:

When Cercei is thinking in her POV she often uses the phrase "for half a groat..."  I found this jarring because she doesn't say it aloud and no one else seems to use it. 

Cersei becomes a POV after Tyrion leaves Westeros and I think this "half a groat" phrase symbolically reinforces the fact that Cersei has offered a reward for the person who kills Tyrion and brings his head to her. When Tyrion joins Penny's jousting act, he takes the place of Penny's brother, known as Groat. So wishing for "half a groat" is like Cersei's call for chopping Tyrion's head off. Since Tyrion is also known as "The Halfman," there may be another layer of meaning there as well. We could probably go back and re-read all of Cersei's "half a groat" thoughts and figure out how they relate to Tyrion: Is she doing the opposite of what he would do? Following in his footsteps? Secretly wishing she had his instincts as an administrator?

This may be a topic for another thread, since it's straying from the OP, but I wonder whether we should compare Tyrion's "Singer Stew" to Cersei's contributions to Qyburn's secret "Robert Strong" recipe? Maybe Cersei is more like Tyrion than she would like to admit.

Also, if Tyrion is like Penny's brother, is Penny like Tyrion's sister? Penny does try to kiss Tyrion, which is what Cersei does with her other brother. Circe and Penelope are both lovers of Odysseus in some versions of the ancient Greek legend.

I thought of another phrase that brings us back to the OP, though: "You know nothing, Jon Snow." That one gets repeated but no one gets tired of it (thanks to Rose Leslie and her chemistry with Kit Harrington). Is there a reason that repetition doesn't bother us, but other repeated phrases do?

[Therae]

15 minutes ago, Seams said:

I thought of another phrase that brings us back to the OP, though: "You know nothing, Jon Snow." That one gets repeated but no one gets tired of it (thanks to Rose Leslie and her chemistry with Kit Harrington). Is there a reason that repetition doesn't bother us, but other repeated phrases do?

Possibly because that one is so specific, and so tied up with with what Jon Snow doesn't know about himself, but we suspect, while many of the others are in-world idioms--a little bit of, say, rosemary, brings the dialogue to life, but too much and it's like you're eating PineSol?

[Prof. Cecily]

3 hours ago, Therae said:

 Maybe it was Daario's way of telling Dany that he was descended from Geoffrey of Anjou?

Nice!

[ravenous reader]

9 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Broom is a plant of the gorse family

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genisteae

Sometimes a broom is just a broom

 

I don't think so.  Not when 'broom' is one of the meanings of the name 'Bran', as well as being the plant referred to in the 'Plantagenet' name (specifically a 'sapling', a young scion), knowing how obsessed GRRM is with English history and royalty.  Significantly, GRRM has made explicit on more than one occasion that a broomstick is a weapon via all the mentions of Stark children throughout the ages fighting with wooden swords (Bran, Lyanna and Benjen, Arya, KOTLT, etc.).  Basically, (a) broom is one of the metaphors used for the weirwood.

Also, brooms are intimately associated with witches who use them to fly to the heavens and work their mischief -- which is exactly what our Bran is doing figuratively and perhaps will embody later more literally via means of the 'weirwood broomstick', the analogue of the slippery steed Sleipnir-Yggdrasil of Norse Mythology mounted by Odin when he hanged himself on the selfsame tree, thus journeying thereby to other worlds!  Straddling the broomstick is like straddling the divide between life and death.  There's also a sexual connotation with respect to witches which I won't go into in the interests of propriety, since last time I brought it up it was met by squeamish silence; however, the symbolism fits nicely with the idea of the 'feminized' greenseer (look up the word 'ergi', one of Odin's derogatory epithets) being wedded to those prodding, poking, penetrating, pinioning weirwood roots in GRRM's own reworking of Odin meets Japanese tentacular porn...

[Unchained]

21 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I don't think so.  Not when 'broom' is one of the meanings of the name 'Bran', as well as being the plant referred to in the 'Plantagenet' name (specifically a 'sapling', a young scion), knowing how obsessed GRRM is with English history and royalty.  Significantly, GRRM has made explicit on more than one occasion that a broomstick is a weapon via all the mentions of Stark children throughout the ages fighting with wooden swords (Bran, Lyanna and Benjen, Arya, KOTLT, etc.).  Basically, (a) broom is one of the metaphors used for the weirwood.

Also, brooms are intimately associated with witches who use them to fly to the heavens and work their mischief -- which is exactly what our Bran is doing figuratively and perhaps will embody later more literally via means of the 'weirwood broomstick', the analogue of the slippery steed Sleipnir-Yggdrasil of Norse Mythology mounted by Odin when he hanged himself on the selfsame tree, thus journeying thereby to other worlds!  Straddling the broomstick is like straddling the divide between life and death.  There's also a sexual connotation with respect to witches which I won't go into in the interests of propriety, since last time I brought it up it was met by squeamish silence; however, the symbolism fits nicely with the idea of the 'feminized' greenseer (look up the word 'ergi', one of Odin's derogatory epithets) being wedded to those prodding, poking, penetrating, pinioning weirwood roots in GRRM's own reworking of Odin meets Japanese tentacular porn...

YES!!, both Odin and Loki are gender-bending tricksters as pointed out in that weird argument Loki has with the gods.  I think this is the root of the abomination of mating with wolf as wolf which Six-skins does as the female wolf.  Dany and Jon are both gender benders in their first relationships at different times.  We are being shown two different greenseers who will do anything for power/knowledge I think.  Jon combined with Bran is the black, weirwood paste eating, last hero in the white weirwood of westros.  Dany (combined with Euron?) is the shade drinking white in the black tree is essos.  @Darry Man pointed out that ebony wood comes from trees in the family of the persimmon tree, so the persimmon tree in her garden in Mereen is like a godswood with a warlock tree in it.  I would like to point out that Dany seems to sacrifice her brother, spouse, and unborn son to birth three dragons and her fellow shade drinker Euron has his brother, salt wife, and unborn child strapped to the prow, or mouth as @Pain killer Jane would say, of his ship as an apparent sacrifice.  Dany is both the AE and the BSE depending on the moment just like Jon.  

 

I am not an expert on tentacle porn so I will take your word on that, but I did watch the beast with a billion backs futurama episode today where an octopus from another dimension connects everyone in a hive mind.  

 

 

[Prof. Cecily]

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I don't think so.  Not when 'broom' is one of the meanings of the name 'Bran', as well as being the plant referred to in the 'Plantagenet' name (specifically a 'sapling', a young scion), knowing how obsessed GRRM is with English history and royalty.  Significantly, GRRM has made explicit on more than one occasion that a broomstick is a weapon via all the mentions of Stark children throughout the ages fighting with wooden swords (Bran, Lyanna and Benjen, Arya, KOTLT, etc.).  Basically, (a) broom is one of the metaphors used for the weirwood.

Also, brooms are intimately associated with witches who use them to fly to the heavens and work their mischief -- which is exactly what our Bran is doing figuratively and perhaps will embody later more literally via means of the 'weirwood broomstick', the analogue of the slippery steed Sleipnir-Yggdrasil of Norse Mythology mounted by Odin when he hanged himself on the selfsame tree, thus journeying thereby to other worlds!  Straddling the broomstick is like straddling the divide between life and death.  There's also a sexual connotation with respect to witches which I won't go into in the interests of propriety, since last time I brought it up it was met by squeamish silence; however, the symbolism fits nicely with the idea of the 'feminized' greenseer (look up the word 'ergi', one of Odin's derogatory epithets) being wedded to those prodding, poking, penetrating, pinioning weirwood roots in GRRM's own reworking of Odin meets Japanese tentacular porn...

Oh, that's given me food for thought. The hill country, where I live, is abloom with broom at the moment. Later we'll have a fabulous broom honey from the local bee-keepers. Of course the royal connection had completely slipped my mind. Thanks to @Therae and you for bringing those people to my consideration. I tend to go Tudor with ASOIAF.

Broomsticks. 

There's something about the connection between witches and broomsticks that strikes me as propaganda from the burning times, rather than a true relation. I have nothing to back up this idea, it's just a feeling.

I relate more to seidth, and runes with crossing over those boundaries.

I relate the Bloodraven throne more to a reflection of the high standing chair used in seidth. Or the relation of shamans with larches.

Still, I'm always happy to see how other people see these things. It enriches my own vision!

 

 

[Prof. Cecily]

On 4/14/2017 at 0:28 AM, Seams said:

Repetition doesn't bother me, usually. I just assume these phrases are meaningful and the author is giving us a hint about something.

One of the ones I noticed is when a character is thinking about dragonglass and they throw in the gratuitous phrase, " What the maesters call obsidian," or "Obsidian." Maester Luwin insisted," and "The Maesters call it 'obsidian'."

GRRM clearly wants the words "maester" and "obsidian" to appear close to each other repeatedly. I suspect he has his reasons.

Well spotted. I reckon maesters, being bookish, prefer "obsidian" as the term for this naturally forming glass.

Dragonglass reminds me of the term "Apaches' Tears" used for obsidian.

[Darry Man]

On 4/15/2017 at 9:55 PM, Unchained said:

YES!!, both Odin and Loki are gender-bending tricksters as pointed out in that weird argument Loki has with the gods.  I think this is the root of the abomination of mating with wolf as wolf which Six-skins does as the female wolf.  Dany and Jon are both gender benders in their first relationships at different times.  We are being shown two different greenseers who will do anything for power/knowledge I think.  Jon combined with Bran is the black, weirwood paste eating, last hero in the white weirwood of westros.  Dany (combined with Euron?) is the shade drinking white in the black tree is essos.  @Darry Man pointed out that ebony wood comes from trees in the family of the persimmon tree, so the persimmon tree in her garden in Mereen is like a godswood with a warlock tree in it.  I would like to point out that Dany seems to sacrifice her brother, spouse, and unborn son to birth three dragons and her fellow shade drinker Euron has his brother, salt wife, and unborn child strapped to the prow, or mouth as @Pain killer Jane would say, of his ship as an apparent sacrifice.  Dany is both the AE and the BSE depending on the moment just like Jon.  

 

I am not an expert on tentacle porn so I will take your word on that, but I did watch the beast with a billion backs futurama episode today where an octopus from another dimension connects everyone in a hive mind.  

Thanks for the shout-out, and I agree with this. The more I read these books, the more convinced that there are few coincidences with the select terms used by GRRM and associated symbolism.