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Are the Ironborn really Vikings?


KarlDanski

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I'm a real big fan of the Northerners, Free Folk, and Ironborn as you could probably guess from my profile name, and picture. The reason is that I like the savageness in the Northerners, Ironborn, and Free Folk, their basically the barbarians of ASOIAF minus the Dothraki. My question is about the Ironborn specifically though, and about their beliefs, and connection to the Vikings. The Ironborn don't seem to be that similar to the Vikings, and I've always associated Skagos more with Vikings than the Ironborn. Sure the Ironborn are all about Rape, Pillage, Burning, and they have the Longships to go with it, but they have a lot more things going against them. They have a monotheistic religion, they're completely against trade, at least for the reavers who find it wrong, as I've read the Quick Defense of the Ironborn about how the Iron Price to an extreme is stupid. But yeah, they're against trade in which the Vikings were famous for, and they don't explore like Leif Erikson or Erik the Red except for maybe the Farwynd's and Alton Greyjoy. They're more inline with Cthulhu with a viking aesthetic. The TV show Ironborn might as well have been pirates though, they don't even have the luxury of using longships or book armor, they all have leather coats, and armor on. 

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They are the generic, common, tropish side of the Vikings. They are not the "real" Vikings with their rich culture, women warriors, devout animistic beliefs which leans more to the free folk.

The Ironborn are a branch of first men like the Starks and other northern houses, and the free folk, are.

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To me they most closely resemble the European views on the Vikings. They don't see the beautiful mysticism, booming trade, naval innovation, amazing and bountiful countries etc. They come from a harsh place, are savage people and slavers. 

 

So beside their raiding ways and excellent shipbuilding and naval power, no, they're not Vikings. They are however very alike to exaggerated Vikings. 

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No the Vikings were actually smart and used the wealth (and occasionally land) they acquired to improve their way of life and build realms that eventually became modern Scandinavia, well and England, if you count the Normans. I'm serious about this, the Viking age ended through a combination of resettlement in areas that were more pleasant and fertile than the frozen hell they came from, Christianization and the Vikings acquiring the knowledge (or knowledgeable thralls) equipment and wealth needed to farm their inhospitable homelands. They weren't maritime hicks who "Do not sow". The Vikings also were great and prolific traders and acquired a lot of wealth that way as well as artists who thought bards were so important that they had a whole god just for them.

Compare that with the Ironborn who, after having previously owned the rich and fertile Riverlands still live in their own shit in the second worst place in Westeros. And that's not because Aegon kicked Harren out of Harrenhall, that's because the Ironborn refuse any sort of innovation, refuse any sort of trade and refuse any other way of life than raiding.

The Vikings also had great personal hygiene by Medieval standrds. They bathed regularly at a time when it wasn't common and took care to look after their beards, hair and teeth. There's reports from the Viking Age that are basically men complaining that some of the local village maidens didn't even try to hide or fight back when the Vikings carried them off because they had taken liking to the tall, handsome and clean invaders.

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Thats what I'm saying. That's also why I support Asha / Rodrik. They would be the innovation and change the Ironborn need to prosper. I know some Hoares and Greyjoys were more civil and more for trade like Quellon or the Hoare Great Grandfather of Harren the Black who said war was bad for trade.

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57 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Compare that with the Ironborn who, after having previously owned the rich and fertile Riverlands still live in their own shit in the second worst place in Westeros. And that's not because Aegon kicked Harren out of Harrenhall, that's because the Ironborn refuse any sort of innovation, refuse any sort of trade and refuse any other way of life than raiding.

Well.. to be fair, it is because Aegon and the Tullys kicked them out of the Riverlands. At least they did try to conquer other lands and expand themselves in a way that wasn't raiding. If Harren had been more like Torrhen and bent the knee, I'm sure the Riverlands would still belong to them and they would have a real chance at bettering themselves. 

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I think you could say that they are vikings, but not medieval norse people. I mean, viking basically was the term for their pirates, so yeah. The difference is that the Ironborn are pretty much defined by that, while it was just a part of norse culture. 

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3 hours ago, KarlDanski said:

I'm a real big fan of the Northerners, Free Folk, and Ironborn as you could probably guess from my profile name, and picture. The reason is that I like the savageness in the Northerners, Ironborn, and Free Folk, their basically the barbarians of ASOIAF minus the Dothraki. My question is about the Ironborn specifically though, and about their beliefs, and connection to the Vikings. The Ironborn don't seem to be that similar to the Vikings, and I've always associated Skagos more with Vikings than the Ironborn. Sure the Ironborn are all about Rape, Pillage, Burning, and they have the Longships to go with it, but they have a lot more things going against them. They have a monotheistic religion, they're completely against trade, at least for the reavers who find it wrong, as I've read the Quick Defense of the Ironborn about how the Iron Price to an extreme is stupid. But yeah, they're against trade in which the Vikings were famous for, and they don't explore like Leif Erikson or Erik the Red except for maybe the Farwynd's and Alton Greyjoy. They're more inline with Cthulhu with a viking aesthetic. The TV show Ironborn might as well have been pirates though, they don't even have the luxury of using longships or book armor, they all have leather coats, and armor on. 

they have some similar traits to Vikings and pirates, they have a lot in common with the independent island nations in ancient Greece, they were organized cultures that had a wide varity of religious belief that were blends of ancient Greek mythos, the were navel people that never adopted the norms of the mainland Greeks. Some Islands had city-state other had their own kings and councils, however these islands were Mediterranean paradises that had resources in abundance compared to the bleak Iron Islands. But the Vikings were also settled in self sustaining areas of northern Europe.

Thats why GRRM's world was so amazing, because he is able to take some many real life qualities and create and blend cultures to create a unique faction, landscape, political and religious make up. Dorne is the greatest example of this. Don't even try to get the debate started about the Dothraki; are they Mongolian? are they Native American? no one can agree but the truth is they are mix of both, as well as other cultures that didn't even ride horses. 

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4 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

No the Vikings were actually smart and used the wealth (and occasionally land) they acquired to improve their way of life and build realms that eventually became modern Scandinavia, well and England, if you count the Normans. I'm serious about this, the Viking age ended through a combination of resettlement in areas that were more pleasant and fertile than the frozen hell they came from, Christianization and the Vikings acquiring the knowledge (or knowledgeable thralls) equipment and wealth needed to farm their inhospitable homelands. They weren't maritime hicks who "Do not sow". The Vikings also were great and prolific traders and acquired a lot of wealth that way as well as artists who thought bards were so important that they had a whole god just for them.

Compare that with the Ironborn who, after having previously owned the rich and fertile Riverlands still live in their own shit in the second worst place in Westeros. And that's not because Aegon kicked Harren out of Harrenhall, that's because the Ironborn refuse any sort of innovation, refuse any sort of trade and refuse any other way of life than raiding.

The Vikings also had great personal hygiene by Medieval standrds. They bathed regularly at a time when it wasn't common and took care to look after their beards, hair and teeth. There's reports from the Viking Age that are basically men complaining that some of the local village maidens didn't even try to hide or fight back when the Vikings carried them off because they had taken liking to the tall, handsome and clean invaders.

Really thorough and helpful breakdown here, thanks!  Your thoughts are aligned with mine.  It is one of the reasons I found the Iron Born chapters in ACOK and AFFC so difficult - it wasn't because they were boring per se, but because they seem like such a backwards culture to me with values that I cannot understand.  The drowned god belief is fine, but the adherence and respect for the "old way" which got them nothing is frustrating.  Balon, Damphair, and ACOK Theon are among my least favorite characters because of this.  Asha's Kingsmoot speech was great, it's ashame these assholes fell for Euron's riches and far fetched promises.

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22 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Really thorough and helpful breakdown here, thanks!  Your thoughts are aligned with mine.  It is one of the reasons I found the Iron Born chapters in ACOK and AFFC so difficult - it wasn't because they were boring per se, but because they seem like such a backwards culture to me with values that I cannot understand.  The drowned god belief is fine, but the adherence and respect for the "old way" which got them nothing is frustrating.  Balon, Damphair, and ACOK Theon are among my least favorite characters because of this.  Asha's Kingsmoot speech was great, it's ashame these assholes fell for Euron's riches and far fetched promises.

I have a feeling that one of the reasons they were written as being so backwards and maniacal is they are due for an extensive reboot, and everyone loves a good comeback story ;)

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The Iron Islands have the potential to be great, but the fanatic warriors with their obsession with the Old Way is what hurts the Ironborn. What made the Iron Islands great were the activities of some of the Hoare Kings who kept Septons/Septas, Maesters, who traded, who had a policy of isolationism, had a policy of stocking up on war materials to give aggressors second thoughts, who banned reaving, and thralldom etc. The Iron Islands have an abundance of iron, tin, and lead. They have a great area for fishing, and their land is better for grazing sheep rather than crops. Asha had a great plan had they done it in the beginning of the WOT5K. Had they access to the Stony Shore and Sea Dragon Point, they would of had a good area for fishing, and shipbuilding. The Iron Islands like many people have said above are loosely based Vikings, based more on the boogy-man stories rather than the traders, explorers, and raiders.

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Certainly a mixture of the Viking tropes infused with a spriknle of the Cthullu mythos and some other elements. As @Orphalesion said, the real Vikings had a more progressive culture, aswell as a stronger sence of personal pride and hygeine.

Many elements of Viking lore are also represented by The Andals, another physically large, fair haired, seafaring race of axe weilding warriors. During the Andal invasion, the Warriors from the Axe would have represented a highly progressive change of guard, bringing with them iron weaponry, strong naval tradition, literature and a powerful new Faith. Fair enough they had face painted, horned helmeted madmen aplenty, but they did reshape Westeros in a highly prolific way.

The naming structure amongst the Free Folk seems to take on a very Norse vibe, with the likes of Tormund, Ygritte, and Magnar Styr all standing out. The Old Gods also have parallels to many Norse Mythologic traditions, with both belief systems having a strong emphasis on a connection to nature. Animals take a strong place in both the Sagas and the First Men fables, such as Odin's wolves Geri and Freki, aswell as his raven buddies Huginn and Muninn, all would feed information to the ruler of Valhalla, which certainly evokes the current situation with The Last Greenseer, House Stark and the COTF. 

In the North, we also have Weirwood trees, mythical white relics which "connect the world of Westeros" in several ways. The Heart Trees certainly evoke the cosmic Tree Yggdrasil, which "connects the nine worlds" in Norse Cosmology. Mighty Odin famously hung himself from Yggdrasil, which again, has similiarities to BR, Bran and the Singers bonding with Weirwoods.

The Freefolk also have their famous Spearwives, showing certain women are allowed to become warriors, another Viking similarity.

With the current Euron situation, the tides are certainly changing for the Iron Born culture. One could look at Euron and his hangers-on as taking the culture in a direction more based on Seventeenth century Piracy, as The Crow's Eye seems more focused on personal gain than the tropes of his peoples beliefs. Euron and some members of his crew certainly dress and act more like tropish pirates after the events of The Shields.

Plus, if The Iron Born do indeed take the Arbor, the amount of booze flowing could certainly result in some drunken Iron Man being "put in the brig untill he's sober"...

With Euron's men visiting locations such as The Shields and possibly The Arbor, The Hightower and King's Landing, it would only be natural for at least a few of his crew to have a change of mindset after being exposed to all "the green lands" have to offer. The same could be said for The Iron fleet, off in sunny Slaver's Bay. Victarion and his men have seen wonderous sights of crystal blue waters, fertile green islands and sun Scorched pyramids, would it not be likely that some of these men have looked at the grandiose nature of the Lands of Always Summer and thought to themselves "does all that Iron Born BS matter?"

Looking at it, it seems that Erik Ironmaker and whoever remains on the Iron Islands may be stuck in the old Iron Born mentality, and unlike the gallant explorers of Euron and Victarions crews, Erik and the remaining men in The Islands have little to expose them to new ideas and lifestyles.

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  • 2 months later...

I'd say the inspiration for the Ironborn was a mash-up of the vikings of Scandinavia  and the pirates of the Caribbean. The vikings may have been savages but they were noble savages. They were warriors (not thugs) and conquerors who often settled in the lands they invaded and became kings. Nobility of character is something decidedly lacking in the Ironborn.  They resemble the buccaneers  of Caribbean fame more. The scum of the seas, thugs, hit-and-run bandits, medieval gangsters. Bloody losers. 

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1 hour ago, The Kurgan said:

 They resemble the buccaneers  of Caribbean fame more. The scum of the seas, thugs, hit-and-run bandits, medieval gangsters.

Not to go too far off topic, but the buccaneers of the Caribbean are just as mysticised as the Vikings in many ways. They weren't the arch-criminal scum depicted in cinema. 

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I've always thought it's strange that for all the Viking stereotypes the Ironborn pull from, their role as explorers didn't translate. If I was a Targaryan I would have hired them more or less as an exploration fleet. Not necessarily the best first impression of Westeros, but their some of the best sailors in the world and the ends of maps are annoying. 

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indeed, if i was forming a small council, i would have put an ironborn, a moderately pleasant, if such a thing exists, as my master of ships, rather tahn handing to a redwynne or a lannister, just because they have the biggest fleets with actual wealth. id rather take true seamen of blue water, not coast skimmers that never sail out of sight of land.

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3 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Not to go too far off topic, but the buccaneers of the Caribbean are just as mysticised as the Vikings in many ways. They weren't the arch-criminal scum depicted in cinema. 

Well, it seems to me that novels and movies like Captain Blood and Treasure Island did a pretty good job of romanticizing the pirate way of life in a positive way. The reality was far less attractive, I'm sure. The pirates life was short, nasty and brutish. Even my favourite real-life pirate Samuel Bellamy "The Prince of Pirates", by all accounts a real gentleman known for his mercy and generosity and quick-wit,  career lasted little more than a year. 

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