How much contact did the North have with the other kingdoms before the Conquest?

[leonardof]

The North is known for its heritage from the First Men, which shows in their preservation of the Old Gods. However, they were cut from their own history by adopting the Common Tongue and its writing system instead of the Old Tongue and its runes. It doesn't make much sense, because they were not conquered by the Andals, or by any of the other six kingdoms, until Torrhen Stark bent the knee to Aegon Targaryen.

To me, the adoption of the Common Tongue is as implausible as the existence of a Common Tongue, the eternal arrest in the Middle Ages and the mere existence of kingdoms so large considering the available technology. In other words, it is a device George Martin used to make the story more manageable and avoiding changing it from high fantasy to an extreme historical fantasy. I don't believe in laziness or inaptitude to create languages: the story shows a lot of contact between people with different languages in Essos, and Tolkien himself created a Common Tongue for Middle Earth.

Although maesters can't be plausibly credited for converting the whole North to the Common Tongue, I can see them having taught it as a second language to the noble houses, like they teach High Valyrian nowadays. That is, provided maesters served Northern noble houses before the Conquest... And septons, did they ever act as missinaries in the North? Septons have put to writing tales from the Age of Heroes, but did they travel North for that? There must have been some amount of trade between the North and the other kingdoms, specially after the Manderlys took place at White Harbor (10 to 6 hundred years before the Conquest). But how did the Manderlys arranged their migration to White Harbor, in the first place?

Which leads to my actual question... How much contact did the North have with the other kingdoms before Torrhen Stark bent the knee to Aegon Targaryen?

[Universal Sword Donor]

Lots of contact

[Jaak]

15 hours ago, leonardof said:

The North is known for its heritage from the First Men, which shows in their preservation of the Old Gods. However, they were cut from their own history by adopting the Common Tongue and its writing system instead of the Old Tongue and its runes. It doesn't make much sense, because they were not conquered by the Andals, or by any of the other six kingdoms, until Torrhen Stark bent the knee to Aegon Targaryen.

To me, the adoption of the Common Tongue is as implausible as the existence of a Common Tongue,

What would make sense is if replacement of Old Tongue by Common Tongue predated Andal invasion.

[leonardof]

On 14/04/2017 at 7:58 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Lots of contact

Would you care to elaborate?

[KarlDanski]

A decent amount. The North had to deal with religious wars declared against them, killing countless on Moat Cailin's walls, they fought a "1000" year war with the Vale, they threw back the Andal invaders, they had to deal with Ironborn raids on the coast, and Bear Island. They accepted the souther Manderly's into their realm, and fought against pirates in the Wolf's Den. 

[The Golden Wolf]

56 minutes ago, KarlDanski said:

A decent amount. The North had to deal with religious wars declared against them, killing countless on Moat Cailin's walls, they fought a "1000" year war with the Vale, they threw back the Andal invaders, they had to deal with Ironborn raids on the coast, and Bear Island. They accepted the souther Manderly's into their realm, and fought against pirates in the Wolf's Den. 

Still even with all that they were never conquered. The fact that the Old Tongue dead in the North is weird. 

For me I believe it is the work of the Maesters and the Citadel but even then that seems strange. Why would the Northern lords who even before the Andal Invasion were always at war with their southern neighbors allow a southern institution within their courts? was the knowledge of the Maesters that valuable to the Northern Lords that they were willing to allow these southern grey rats to teach their children and supplant Northern Customs, Knowledge, and lore?  

I would like to know when the first maesters came to the North.

[KarlDanski]

Despite the religious, and cultural differences, the North still most likely traded with the Southern kingdoms like their closest neighbor, the Riverlands, the Stormlands which they are closely connected etc. It probably became more of an accommodation than anything, your closest trading partners speak a different language, like English, best to learn it to make diplomacy easier.

[Universal Sword Donor]

11 hours ago, leonardof said:

Would you care to elaborate?

A cursory glimpse at the history section in the North wiki entry should suffice, but the Manderlys felt comfortable fleeing a thousand leagues from the Reach to the North. Ironborn raided and invaded, then lost Cape Kraken, Bear Island, and Sea Dragon Point, and most likely traded at some point with the North. The Vale and North fought for a thousand years. Trade is clearly coming into White Harbor from the free cities, the sisters, and elsewhere. The neck has suffered conflict with the Freys (at a minimum) for hundreds of years. Moat Cailin has defended against lots of invaders since it was built. 

I don't know if you've read the WOIAF but it makes it pretty clear that each region has had plenty of contact with outside regions, if not every region. That the Iron Islands are known for their blacksmiths and weaponsmiths speaks volumes.

[rmanoj]

I posted my thoughts on the Common Tongue and its adoption in the North in another thread not too long ago:

Quote

I do think this is a problem. Even revisionist maesters place the Andal invasion as having occurred at least 2000 years ago, if I recall correctly. That is more than enough time for a language to evolve into several mutually unintelligible languages. Educated people might have had a "Latin" equivalent, and sailors etc. would have had their own "Lingua Franca", but it should be nigh impossible for most people to have a conversation with smallfolk from a distant region.

Another issue is the relationship between the Old Tongue and the Common Tongue.  There are two possible scenarios that I can envision:

1) The "straightforward" account: The First Men spoke the Old Tongue, and the Andals brought over their own language. The Andal language evolved into the Common Tongue with an unknown degree of influence from the Old Tongue substratum. 

If this is the case, you would expect the Common Tongue to be learned in the North as a useful second language for lords, merchants, sailors etc. But it appears to be the native tongue of pretty much everyone, even though you would expect the smallfolk to continue speaking some descendant of the Old Tongue. Perhaps there has been a great deal of Andal migration to the North, despite all attempts at outright conquest apparently failing, and that is how their language became dominant there?

2) The "Norman French" account. The Andal language heavily influenced the Old Tongue spoken by the First Men in the South, resulting in the latter evolving into the ancestor of the Common Tongue. The Andals eventually stopped speaking their original language and adopted the Common Tongue for all purposes. The wildlings speak a much more conservative descendant of the Old Tongue with little Andal influence (which is why everyone still calls it the Old Tongue). The North would also have had a more conservative variety to begin with, but this may have converged over time due to the influence of the Southern Common Tongue. 

This account makes a bit more sense to me.

This is still very weak. How and why would such a thorough convergence have taken place? Nobody ever hints at "Northern Common Tongue" being different but mutually intelligible to a limited degree with "Southern Common Tongue" - at most they mention accents. There should be a more plausible in-universe explanation, but I have no idea what it could be. 

[Jaak]

My in-universe explanation would be that Common Tongue predated Andal Conquest.

Andal invasion did not affect the whole Westeros. Long Night did.

[leonardof]

On 17/04/2017 at 11:30 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

A cursory glimpse at the history section in the North wiki entry should suffice, but the Manderlys felt comfortable fleeing a thousand leagues from the Reach to the North. Ironborn raided and invaded, then lost Cape Kraken, Bear Island, and Sea Dragon Point, and most likely traded at some point with the North. The Vale and North fought for a thousand years. Trade is clearly coming into White Harbor from the free cities, the sisters, and elsewhere. The neck has suffered conflict with the Freys (at a minimum) for hundreds of years. Moat Cailin has defended against lots of invaders since it was built. 

I don't know if you've read the WOIAF but it makes it pretty clear that each region has had plenty of contact with outside regions, if not every region. That the Iron Islands are known for their blacksmiths and weaponsmiths speaks volumes.

Yes, I forgot WOIAF; the wiki doesn't cover much this part. Although nothing could explain such a thorough convergence, as @rmanojpointed out (unless we believe in the Common Tongue predating the Andals, like @Jaak does), war with the Vale suggests a lot of contact before the Conquest.

[rmanoj]

13 hours ago, Jaak said:

My in-universe explanation would be that Common Tongue predated Andal Conquest.

Andal invasion did not affect the whole Westeros. Long Night did.

Do you mean that it is descended from a language spoken by all or most of the First Men? Then what is the Old Tongue and how are the two related (or not related)?

I suppose the Common Tongue could have evolved from a dialect of the Old Tongue before the Andal invasion (with the wildlings retaining a much more conservative dialect that evolved into a language that is completely unintelligible to Common Tongue speakers) or perhaps a completely different language that was spoken by some First Men tribes while others spoke the Old Tongue. The Andals could have adopted it without their own language having a massive influence. But if that was the case, then why would it have evolved in such a uniform manner throughout the whole continent of Westeros, without even the existence of a written standard (this being before the Andals brought writing) to promote any degree of uniformity? How has it stayed uniform for thousands of years, from Dorne to the North?

[Jaak]

7 hours ago, rmanoj said:

Do you mean that it is descended from a language spoken by all or most of the First Men? Then what is the Old Tongue and how are the two related (or not related)?

I suppose the Common Tongue could have evolved from a dialect of the Old Tongue before the Andal invasion (with the wildlings retaining a much more conservative dialect that evolved into a language that is completely unintelligible to Common Tongue speakers) or perhaps a completely different language that was spoken by some First Men tribes while others spoke the Old Tongue. The Andals could have adopted it without their own language having a massive influence. But if that was the case, then why would it have evolved in such a uniform manner throughout the whole continent of Westeros, without even the existence of a written standard (this being before the Andals brought writing) to promote any degree of uniformity? How has it stayed uniform for thousands of years, from Dorne to the North?

Staying uniform is the bigger problem, yes - but that equally applies to anything since Andal conquest.

North was affected by Long Night. Note how Winterfell was built by Brandon the Builder. First Men of Westeros had 4000 years of history before Long Night, but that was not history of Starks of Winterfell. That Brandon the Builder, in his youth before Long Night, counselled Durran about building Storm´s End - in South, not North.

We hear how kings shivered and died on their thrones in Long Night. Meaning that in the aftermath of Long Night, there would have been lands and kingdoms to resettle.

Some people settling in the North after Long Night would have been Southrons - like Brandon Stark. Others could have been people who fled North during Long Night, and spent the Night in South.

If there was a substantial congregation of fugitives in South, then considering the duration of Long Night, they may well have adopted a dialect of their hosts, and carried it back North when returning, alongside the new Southron settlers of North.

So, if a lot of North was resettled by Southrons who spoke or long-term refugees who had adopted Common Speech, but some groups also survived in North itself and held to Old Tongue... some of them may have adopted Common Tongue as that of their Stark kings and most neighbours later over time, some may have held out.

[l2 0 5 5]

Good question, I'll go over this by region.

Dorne: I'd imagine little to no contact at all. Certainly no contact in regards to martial alliances, or even betrothals. I'd imagine that the only contact they'd have would be regarding trade. No more than that.

Reach: Very similar to Dorne. Due to geography, and a lack of common enemies, I don't see where they would have much contact besides trading. The Reach does have Oldtown and The Arbor, so I think it more plausible for trade than Dorne. 

Westerlands: I actually see potential contact here regarding martial alliances. There's actually history on this, even though it was after conquest. I believe it was the Red Kraken that prompted the North and West to ally to protect their shores from the ironmen. So, for that reason, I can see the North and West having contact for any potential reavers, pre or post conquest.

Stormlands: Not sure what the storm region has to offer the North. Possible betrothal to ally Storm/North to crush an enemy in the middle (Riverlands). That actually makes sense. The North and Stormlands would destroy the Riverlands if they allied against them.

Vale: Pretty close in proximity. I could see a betrothal to ally the two regions against any southern enemies. The North and Vale are next door neighbors, and could be good partners if any invaders form the South thought to attack. They both have 2 impenetrable keeps, too: Moat Cailin and the Bloody Gate. Could be a good duo.

Riverlands: Seems to be the most logical kingdom to be in contact with for the North. Their direct southern neighbor, the Riverlands would most likely take the brunt of any first attack if a southern invader tried to march North. A great deal for the northern lords... Also a good deal for the River lords since they would have an ally to come to their call if ever attacked; considering they are absolutely fucked since they're the only region that has another kingdom on every side of them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but besides Dorne and Stormlands, every other region in the 7 kingdoms touches a perimeter of the Riverlands?

Ironborn: Would be a good ally for naval reasons, but considering the IB never ally with anyone but themselves, seems like a waste of a letter and raven.

[Lord Varys]

There are actually quite a few hints that the Northmen (and even the wildlings, to a lesser degree) are much farther removed from the First Men of the days of the Pact than we should believe if we only are crediting the Andal invasion for that development.

- There are no greenseers being used by either the free folk or the Northmen. Why is that?

- Skinchangers are seen as evil and twisted creatures both by the Northmen and (to a lesser degree) by the wildlings (Varamyr has to leave his family and home after his gift is discovered). Why is that?

- There are no Children of the Forest left in the North despite the fact that the Pact originally granted the deep forests to the Children.

- The wildlings also have essentially no contact with the Children in the cave. Mance and the others show no sign whatsoever of being in contact with either Bloodraven or the Children.

The best way to reconcile this is to assume that a (slow) cultural change happened much earlier than the Andal invasion, affecting all the First Men and leading them away from their magical past to a more enlightened era. Perhaps the root of this is at the Long Night and the events leading up to it.

TWoIaF gave us hints (with the early Durrandon kings taking the Rainwood from the Children through war and a Stark king warring against the Warg King on Sea Dragon Point and the Children of the Forest who were allied with him) that things weren't all that fine between the Children and the First Men even before the Andals arrived. The Andals certainly completed the holocaust but there are strong hints that the First Men all across Westeros, even in the North, also drove the Children further and further back throughout the centuries. If this hadn't been the case there would still be Children in the Wolfswood - the largest forest south of the Wall - to this day. And even beyond the Wall the Children seem to be confined to s single hollow hill in the middle of the haunted forest. If the wildlings were still true to the Pact the entire haunted forest should be land of the Children.

It would make sense to assume that the Common Tongue also goes back to the cultural change that led the First Men further and further away from the Children.

[Jasta11]

The Common Tongue makes little sense. A continent the size of South America, with very varied regions in terms of history and culture, having one monolithic language? So much so that a Wildling raider, a Dornish noble, a Vale tradesman and an Ironborn sailor could all understand each other perfectly and even use some of the same idioms? 

I understand that GRRM did it for the sake of convenience. But it makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever. It's one area where Essos is actually more believable than Westeros, different peoples have different languages.

[Fire Eater]

Not much given the Neck; the North wasn't involved in the Great Game all the Southron kingdoms were engaged in. They only shared a border withe the riverlands, and the only kingdoms they are recorded fighting are the Vale over the Sisters and the Iron Isles over their depredations. Their foreign policy tended to be pretty isolationist for the most part with only a small group of merchants providing contact with other kingdoms. 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There are actually quite a few hints that the Northmen (and even the wildlings, to a lesser degree) are much farther removed from the First Men of the days of the Pact than we should believe if we only are crediting the Andal invasion for that development.

- There are no greenseers being used by either the free folk or the Northmen. Why is that?

- Skinchangers are seen as evil and twisted creatures both by the Northmen and (to a lesser degree) by the wildlings (Varamyr has to leave his family and home after his gift is discovered). Why is that?

- There are no Children of the Forest left in the North despite the fact that the Pact originally granted the deep forests to the Children.

- The wildlings also have essentially no contact with the Children in the cave. Mance and the others show no sign whatsoever of being in contact with either Bloodraven or the Children.

The best way to reconcile this is to assume that a (slow) cultural change happened much earlier than the Andal invasion, affecting all the First Men and leading them away from their magical past to a more enlightened era. Perhaps the root of this is at the Long Night and the events leading up to it.

TWoIaF gave us hints (with the early Durrandon kings taking the Rainwood from the Children through war and a Stark king warring against the Warg King on Sea Dragon Point and the Children of the Forest who were allied with him) that things weren't all that fine between the Children and the First Men even before the Andals arrived. The Andals certainly completed the holocaust but there are strong hints that the First Men all across Westeros, even in the North, also drove the Children further and further back throughout the centuries. If this hadn't been the case there would still be Children in the Wolfswood - the largest forest south of the Wall - to this day. And even beyond the Wall the Children seem to be confined to s single hollow hill in the middle of the haunted forest. If the wildlings were still true to the Pact the entire haunted forest should be land of the Children.

It would make sense to assume that the Common Tongue also goes back to the cultural change that led the First Men further and further away from the Children.

  WOAIF mentions that in the Starks' conquest of Sea Dragon Point, they fought the CotF who were allied with their foe the Warg King. That suggests the CotF did get involved with First Men politics, and likely paid a price for picking the wrong side. 

[PrinceHenryris]

I think that Lord Varys might be on to something.

I'd say that the "Old Tongue" was the language of the Children and the Giants, not the First Men.  Some of the First Men may have learned it, but it's not the mother tongue.

My guess would be that "Common Tongue" is not derived from the "Old Tongue", but rather the language the First Men brought across the arm.  The Andals who also came to Westeroos from across the Narrow Sea might have spoken a dialect of the same language.  Since there were marriages between the Andal invaders and notable First Men families, it's conceivable that a somewhat common language developed over the millennia.

Also, it's entirely possible that a continent the size of South America could all speak the same language, because with the exception of Brazil, the continent pretty much speaks Spanish.  Now are there differences in dialects, accents and slang among the Spanish speakers?  Absolutely, but they can still eventually get to an understanding.  I've personally witnessed Brazilians and Argentinians have conversations in a language other than English.

So in my opinion, it's not entirely impossible that Westeroos could have a common language, but I'm sure there are regional differences in pronunciations and the like.

Finally, we have to remember that we almost exclusively read the stories from the POV's of the Highborn. 

I'm still trying to figure out the Ironborn.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

WOAIF mentions that in the Starks' conquest of Sea Dragon Point, they fought the CotF who were allied with their foe the Warg King. That suggests the CotF did get involved with First Men politics, and likely paid a price for picking the wrong side. 

If that was the only hint that the First Men continued to crush the Children beneath their feet after the Pact I might agree with you. But we have Durran Godsgrief himself taking the Rainwood from the Children, his son Durran the Devout restoring it to them and Durran Bronze-Axe eventually taking it for good (his moniker suggests said taking involved cutting quite a few weirwoods down).

All that happened long before the Andals came, long after the Pact, and even after the Long Night.

We know by the time the Andals arrived the Children were very much diminished in the Stormlands, the Reach, and the Riverlands in spite of the Pact.

And up North the First Men seem to have been in the possession of the deep forests since before the Long Night, too. The Starks took the Wolfswood from other First Men (the Glovers and Blackwoods, allegedly), not the Children.

When the Andals came the Durrandons and Gardeners searched for and made some alliances with the Children against them but all we know about the Starks is that they butchered those Children (and their greenseers) who supported the Warg King. That indicates that those ancient Kings of Winter, those hard and cruel men whose faces we see in the crypts of Winterfell, didn't give a damn about a Pact their distant ancestors may or may not have made. They wanted to conquer and subdue all the lands around Winterfell and that's what they did over the course of centuries. And just as they had to eradicate and put down many First Men (houses) to do so they would also have butchered and driven away the Children of the Forest. Else they would still live in the places the Pact granted them.

If the Starks had been on good footing with the Children, ever upholding the Pact, then we should actually expect see still Children settlements of considerable size in the North. After all, the Children fleeing from the Andals could then have settled in the North, swelling the numbers of the Children there. Instead, the only place where there might be some Children (or remnants/descendants of the Children) left is the Neck, not the North.

And it doesn't seem to be much different in the lands beyond the Wall. The haunted forest is full of wildling villages and settlements despite the fact that this forest should still be the sole domain of the Children. It is still the largest and deepest forest in all of Westeros, after all. Nothing indicates that Mance and the other wildlings even know that the Children still exist. There sure as hell is no indication that any of them ever searched out and met with Bloodraven. And I'm pretty sure Bloodraven did not exactly like Mance's policy of trying to breach the Wall.

If the Children created the Others then it is actually very likely that this was in done in reaction to the First Men breaking the Pact. We know that not all Children nor all First Men were in favor of the Pact and while the Children are long-lived and thus able to remember stuff they agreed to in their youth (or what their parents and grandparents did) the First Men are not. There can only be small doubt that the distant descendants of the First Men involved in the Pact living 500 or 1,000 years after the Pact couldn't care less about some old contract. They would have treated the Children as fairly as the European settlers treated the natives in the Americas, Australia, and elsewhere.

This is even more evident by the fact that the First Men apparently continued to dispossess and war against the Children very shortly after the Long Night. Durran Godsgrief lived either through or shortly after the Long Night, after all.

It makes sense that they would not have remembered that part of their own history. It is nothing to be proud of. But the Children and the Others most likely still remember all that.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Well it seems to me the major difference that the Andals brought was that their religion made them chop down the weirwood trees, while the First Men revered the trees, even when they pushed the Children from their lands. And it was the fate of the trees, and the spirits of the greenseers that live inside them, that was most important to the Children.

So while the First Men reigned, the weirwoods survived, even if the Children themselves dwindled. But that changed with the coming of the Andals, until only the North retained its weirwood trees outside of godswoods.