How much contact did the North have with the other kingdoms before the Conquest?

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well it seems to me the major difference that the Andals brought was that their religion made them chop down the weirwood trees, while the First Men revered the trees, even when they pushed the Children from their lands. And it was the fate of the trees, and the spirits of the greenseers that live inside them, that was most important to the Children.

So while the First Men reigned, the weirwoods survived, even if the Children themselves dwindled. But that changed with the coming of the Andals, until only the North retained its weirwood trees outside of godswoods.

Durran Bronze-Axe bears that name for a reason. He warred against the Children in the Rainwood and permanently took it from them long after the Pact and long before the Andals came. Presumably there were weirwoods and weirwoods. Those you have in your own castle you worship. Those who stand on a hollow hill beneath which a greenseer enemies of yours hide you cut down.

In some regions there certainly were some holy weirwood groves where the Children and the First Men worshiped together (High Heart, for instance) and those holy places were destroyed by the Andals upon their arrival. But those were already pretty much Children reservations.

The First Men had begun the good work of eradicating the Children and the Andals just finished it.

The weirwoods in the ancient castles of the First Men were never touched by the Andals, and the Andal lords and kings even included godswoods and weirwoods in their great castles, all the way up to Harrenhal (a castle built by an Ironborn king with Andal ancestors). The only prominent castles which lack a weirwood are the Red Keep (due to its relative youth being raised at a place where there were no weirwoods) and the Eyrie (due to the fact that no weirwoods grow up there).

Could be that some castles in the Reach, the West, the Vale, and the Riverlands raised by Andal invaders also have no weirwoods. But if that's the case then we don't know anything about that.

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Durran Bronze-Axe bears that name for a reason. He warred against the Children in the Rainwood and permanently took it from them long after the Pact and long before the Andals came. Presumably there were weirwoods and weirwoods. Those you have in your own castle you worship. Those who stand on a hollow hill beneath which a greenseer enemies of yours hide you cut down.

In some regions there certainly were some holy weirwood groves where the Children and the First Men worshiped together (High Heart, for instance) and those holy places were destroyed by the Andals upon their arrival. But those were already pretty much Children reservations.

The First Men had begun the good work of eradicating the Children and the Andals just finished it.

The weirwoods in the ancient castles of the First Men were never touched by the Andals, and the Andal lords and kings even included godswoods and weirwoods in their great castles, all the way up to Harrenhal (a castle built by an Ironborn king with Andal ancestors). The only prominent castles which lack a weirwood are the Red Keep (due to its relative youth being raised at a place where there were no weirwoods) and the Eyrie (due to the fact that no weirwoods grow up there).

Could be that some castles in the Reach, the West, the Vale, and the Riverlands raised by Andal invaders also have no weirwoods. But if that's the case then we don't know anything about that.

I wasn't talking about the weirwoods in the castles. I'm talking about the wild weirwoods in the forests. Just like the Andals in general would not go around burning down random septs, similiarly the First Men, due to their religion would not have gone around chopping down wild weirwoods. Because they worship them.

Sure, you get unbelievers in all races, such as the Brave Companions and Gregor's evil bunch who have no problem burning down septs when it suits their agenda. But in general, septs are seen as holy among the Andals and largely left in peace. Similarly, the First Men worshipped the weirwoods, and would generally have left the weirwoods in the wild forests in peace.

Hence, when the Andals arrived, weirwoods would have been widespread across the southron forests, where today they are almost exclusively found in the North.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I wasn't talking about the weirwoods in the castles. I'm talking about the wild weirwoods in the forests.

Those aren't wild weirwoods, either. Wild weirwoods are faceless trees. What you are talking about are trees outside of castles that have carved faces and are part of the whole old gods religion thing.

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just like the Andals in general would not go around burning down random septs, similiarly the First Men, due to their religion would not have gone around chopping down wild weirwoods. Because they worship them.

Wild weirwood are likely treated just as any other tree. They are chopped down and used as firewood or building material. The only relevant weirwoods for the Children would be those with a face, those who were heart trees in some godswood. Castles have godswoods but presumably villages and settlements have those, too, or at least a weirwood with a carved face. That is the way north of the Wall still. Every wildling village seems to have its faced weirwood tree.

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Sure, you get unbelievers in all races, such as the Brave Companions and Gregor's evil bunch who have no problem burning down septs when it suits their agenda. But in general, septs are seen as holy among the Andals and largely left in peace. Similarly, the First Men worshipped the weirwoods, and would generally have left the weirwoods in the wild forests in peace.

Whenever the First Men were at war with the Children they would also target their weirwoods and other sacred places just as the Andals and First Men do today. Such is the way of warfare. Presumably any wars the First Men had with the Children were wars of eradication and theft, with the First Men taking more and more land from the Children. They might have kept some of weirwood trees for their own purposes but clearly not all of them. The Children once had entire groves and woods full of weirwoods with faces. South of the Wall none of those are left. Even Highgarden only has three weirwoods with carved faces, and Winterfell just one. Jon is very surprised about the grove beyond the Wall including nine weirwoods with faces.

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Hence, when the Andals arrived, weirwoods would have been widespread across the southron forests, where today they are almost exclusively found in the North.

Weirwoods seem to be scarce trees anyway, but yeah, there are still some wild weirwoods in the Wolfswood but there are also some in the Rainwood and most likely in the Kingswood, too.

[Dofs]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The weirwoods in the ancient castles of the First Men were never touched by the Andals, and the Andal lords and kings even included godswoods and weirwoods in their great castles, all the way up to Harrenhal (a castle built by an Ironborn king with Andal ancestors). The only prominent castles which lack a weirwood are the Red Keep (due to its relative youth being raised at a place where there were no weirwoods) and the Eyrie (due to the fact that no weirwoods grow up there).

They never were because First Men defeated the Andals everywhere except for the Vale and Riverlands and made them their bannermen which is what saved those weirwoods in so many ancient castles. At some point later (or, like in the Reach straight away), the First Men rulers took the Andal religion for theirs but it seems that their was no such zealotry between them to destroy the praying places of their ancestors and with time the weirwoods in the castles became a some sort of a tradition to keep, a point of prestige maybe which is why it was also planted in the Harrenhall.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

They never were because First Men defeated the Andals everywhere except for the Vale and Riverlands and made them their bannermen which is what saved those weirwoods in so many ancient castles.

Sure, that's what the case in the castles in the South that still have godswoods with weirwoods. But those include only Storm's End (until Stannis burned it), Casterly Rock, Riverrun, Raventree Hall, and Harrenhal. We have no idea what's the case in, say, the Gates of the Moon, Runestone, Seagard, Ashford, Crakehall Castle, etc. Some of those castles may have been (re-)built by Andals with the weirwoods there being cut down during some of the early wars between the First Men and the Andals.

In addition those castles and houses that were built and founded by Andals may not all have godswoods with weirwood heart trees.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

At some point later (or, like in the Reach straight away), the First Men rulers took the Andal religion for theirs but it seems that their was no such zealotry between them to destroy the praying places of their ancestors and with time the weirwoods in the castles became a some sort of a tradition to keep, a point of prestige maybe which is why it was also planted in the Harrenhall.

Yeah, there was no concentrated effort in many of the conquered lands to destroy the old faith and the weirwoods in those castles. But note that Casterly Rock, Storm's End, and Highgarden were never conquered by the Andals by force. Thus it makes sense to assume that nobody ever had the opportunity to actually try to destroy those godswoods. And later when Andals married into the ruling dynasties of those kingdoms they could never convince them to actually turn fully against the old gods.

But that is not the case everywhere. There seem to have been organized weirwood burnings and destruction in the Vale, the Riverlands, the Stormlands and some regions of the West.

[Jaak]

On 20.4.2017 at 1:09 PM, Lord Varys said:

The weirwoods in the ancient castles of the First Men were never touched by the Andals, and the Andal lords and kings even included godswoods and weirwoods in their great castles, all the way up to Harrenhal (a castle built by an Ironborn king with Andal ancestors). The only prominent castles which lack a weirwood are the Red Keep (due to its relative youth being raised at a place where there were no weirwoods) and the Eyrie (due to the fact that no weirwoods grow up there).

Could be that some castles in the Reach, the West, the Vale, and the Riverlands raised by Andal invaders also have no weirwoods. But if that's the case then we don't know anything about that.

And Eyrie made a serious attempt to plant a weirwood.

Harrenhal is just 40 years older than Red Keep.

Red Keep has a designated heart tree - which is an oak, not weirwood. By contrast, not only did Eyrie fail to make a weirwood thrive, but the godswood is depicted as an open garden, without a non-weirwood heart tree.

The point of the old religion is weirwoods with faces. And the faces are implied to be cut by intelligent beings - people or children. Not natural growth of weirwoods. There is one mention of a slender young weirwood at Whispers and no mention of face - presumably lacking a face.

An Andal who wanted to compromize about the old religion would have had the option to plant a weirwood but cut no face. Yet that´s not what Harren did - Harrenhal´s weirwood does have a face. Or when was that face cut? Is a slender young weirwood suitable to cut a face?

Do weirwood faces need recutting, lest they become healed and obliterated by tree growth? Could an Andal who wants to compromize about old religion obliterate the face of weirwood by allowing it to grow over?

 

[Orphalesion]

The way the Andals from the time of the invasion actually makes them seem like dirty, fanatic savages who mutilated their own bodies and had religion as the only unifying factor among them.

This, couple with the fact that at least two prominent Andal houses (Gardener/Tyrell and Lannister) were really just a continuation of original and that castles like Catserly Rock are believed to predate the invasion, I can actually see the Andal invasion taking not the form of a replacement of the  First Men population south of the Neck, but rather of an assimilation of the invading Andals into the already present First Men. 

Following that idea the Common Tongue might even be First Men in origin rather than Andal, which fits with the idea of it being older than the conquest.

The North (and technically the Iron Islands and the Sisters) were just the region(s) were the First Men elite/leadership wasn't replaced, they kept their religion(s) and didn't adopt Andal cultural trappings tied to the new religions (like knighthood) while south of the neck the Andal arrivals adopted quite a bit of First men culture, including their language.

By now of course all of it is one people genetically, as GRRM has stated.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Jaak said:

And Eyrie made a serious attempt to plant a weirwood.

Yeah, it seems by the time the Eyrie was finally completed the Arryns had made their peace with the old gods in their kingdom.

2 hours ago, Jaak said:

Harrenhal is just 40 years older than Red Keep.

Red Keep has a designated heart tree - which is an oak, not weirwood. By contrast, not only did Eyrie fail to make a weirwood thrive, but the godswood is depicted as an open garden, without a non-weirwood heart tree.

The point of the old religion is weirwoods with faces. And the faces are implied to be cut by intelligent beings - people or children. Not natural growth of weirwoods. There is one mention of a slender young weirwood at Whispers and no mention of face - presumably lacking a face.

An Andal who wanted to compromize about the old religion would have had the option to plant a weirwood but cut no face. Yet that´s not what Harren did - Harrenhal´s weirwood does have a face. Or when was that face cut? Is a slender young weirwood suitable to cut a face?

I expect that Harren included either some ancient godswood from a previous castle he tore down to build Harrenhal or some ancient surviving holy grove with a weirwood heart tree into his castle.

The tree Gyldayn and later Arya describe gives no indication to be a young weirwood. Weirwoods grow slowly. A weirwood being about 300 years old in ACoK would not be looking as old and thick as it does.

Nothing indicates that weirwood faces can be created by modern people or by the First Men in general. It might be that only Children or greenseers can do that. There clearly is difference between faceless trees and the trees with faces.

I'd say that on Aegon's High Hill no weirwood tree grew by the time Aegon commanded the building of the Red Keep, and the Targaryens then chose not to put a faceless weirwood into their castle godswood.

2 hours ago, Jaak said:

Do weirwood faces need recutting, lest they become healed and obliterated by tree growth? Could an Andal who wants to compromize about old religion obliterate the face of weirwood by allowing it to grow over?

One wonders how the Arryns intended to give their weirwood a face. It is not unlikely that some of the younger castles actually have faceless weirwoods if we assume there is something magical to those faces. If not, then it wouldn't be that hard to make such faces.

[KarlDanski]

Description

See also: Images of Weirwood Trees

The five-pointed leaves and the sap of weirwoods are blood-red, while the smooth bark on their wide trunks and wood are bone white. Most weirwoods have faces carved into their trunks. This was done by the children of the forest in ancient days, and is now done by the free folk as well as other descendants of the First Men, such as followers of the old gods in the Seven Kingdoms praying to heart trees in godswoods. In some cases sap has collected in the crevices of the carved faces, giving the trees red eyes which have been known to drip sap as if the trees were weeping. A weirwood will live forever if undisturbed.

 

The "bloody eyes" effect that Weirwood Trees give off is basically sap. From what it's being said, the Weirwood Trees are inherently magical, and not just the creation of a face. So any decent carver could make a Godswood with a face, and like I pasted above, the carving WAS done by COTF, but is now done by Free Folk/Northmen so it is possible for them to do so, and if you believe the idea that First Men/Andals interbreeded with the COTF like the Reeds are told to have did, they might have the magic in them to give the faceless weirwood tree the magical ability. The First Men only gained Greenseer/Warging ability after the move to Westeros from what the text implies, so we can imply that COTF gives First Men like Jojen or Bran the ability.