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Rhaegar wasn't polygamous, he was dumping Elia for Lyanna


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2 minutes ago, Jasta11 said:

What proof does Rhaegar have? That Aerys acted unhinged a few times? That's hardly enough to make the great Lords reach for their swords. If the apparent extent of Aerys's madness is being unkempt and having an attitude, no one is going to lift a finger to stop him. They were spurred into action because the King killed a Lord and called for the heads of two others; no one is going to care if he has odd habits. 

So Rhaegar's only argument becomes ''I want to bang this girl''. Which is not going to impress anyone but (maybe, possibly, not even sure) Rickard. And casts serious doubts as to how reliable an ally and how good of a King Rhaegar will be, if he's willing to toss aside his marriage and plunge the realm into civil war for little apparent reasons beyond lust for a 15 years old.

The more I think about it, the more I think this is a Cercei-tier bad plan.

Seriously? "Odd habits"? You are enormously understating the extent to which Aerys' madness was known. Here is a quote from before Harrenhal:

His Grace's growing madness had become unmistakable by that time. From Dorne to the Wall, men had begun to refer to Aerys II as the Mad King. In King's Landing, he was called King Scab, for the many times he had cut himself upon the Iron Throne.

So even before Harrenhal he was already called the Mad King. And here is after Harrenhal:

If indeed this was the purpose behind the tourney, it was a perilous game that Rhaegar Targaryen was playing. Though few doubted that Aerys had taken leave of his senses, many still had good reason to oppose his removal from the Iron Throne, for certain courtiers and councillors had gained great wealth and power through the king's caprice and knew that they stood to lose all should Prince Rhaegar come to power.

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He was dumping Elia for Lyanna, okay. But the real question is why? I didn't have the time to read all the 5 pages but, some may say he was trying to find a woman to have the 3 headed dragon, or, so he could make the PTWP. And even then, he didn't have to choose Lyanna Stark to do so. So why her specifically. He could bang a fisherwoman for all he knew at the time, why picking up the daughter of one of the most powerful lords in the kingdom?

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8 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Seriously? "Odd habits"? You are enormously understating the extent to which Aerys' madness was known. Here is a quote from before Harrenhal:

His Grace's growing madness had become unmistakable by that time. From Dorne to the Wall, men had begun to refer to Aerys II as the Mad King. In King's Landing, he was called King Scab, for the many times he had cut himself upon the Iron Throne.

So even before Harrenhal he was already called the Mad King. And here is after Harrenhal:

If indeed this was the purpose behind the tourney, it was a perilous game that Rhaegar Targaryen was playing. Though few doubted that Aerys had taken leave of his senses, many still had good reason to oppose his removal from the Iron Throne, for certain courtiers and councillors had gained great wealth and power through the king's caprice and knew that they stood to lose all should Prince Rhaegar come to power.

The rest of your second paragraph makes your quotes a bit moot, I find, Yeah, people knew Aerys was off his rocker. And they couldn't care less so long as they profited from it, or weren't harmed by it. Aerys is a (mostly) known quantity, he's capricious and unhinged but his actual actions haven't harmed the power and interests of many important people. Aerys's madness only started being a serious problem (and even then, not to everyone) when he started to kill his vassals without reason. Rhaegar would be the one trying to up-end this broadly beneficial status quo in favor of a guy who's willing to throw his marriage, father and liege lord to the dogs if it gets him the hot chick he wants. 

And I can only imagine the reaction from the Lords if Rhaegar ever tries to explain the real reason why he wants Lyanna. Think most people would still prefer King Scab to King Bangs-Teens-For-Prophecy.

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6 minutes ago, Jasta11 said:

And I can only imagine the reaction from the Lords if Rhaegar ever tries to explain the real reason why he wants Lyanna. Think most people would still prefer King Scab to King Bangs-Teens-For-Prophecy.

I lol'd but that's true. 
But even so, maybe more people than you think could join up forces with Rhaegar to usurp the Throne. People adored Rhaegar, but that kidnapp just to get a prophecy baby was hard to explain to the other lords.

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8 minutes ago, Jasta11 said:

The rest of your second paragraph makes your quotes a bit moot, I find, Yeah, people knew Aerys was off his rocker. And they couldn't care less so long as they profited from it, or weren't harmed by it. Aerys is a (mostly) known quantity, he's capricious and unhinged but his actual actions haven't harmed the power and interests of many important people. Aerys's madness only started being a serious problem (and even then, not to everyone) when he started to kill his vassals without reason. Rhaegar would be the one trying to up-end this broadly beneficial status quo in favor of a guy who's willing to throw his marriage, father and liege lord to the dogs if it gets him the hot chick he wants. 

And I can only imagine the reaction from the Lords if Rhaegar ever tries to explain the real reason why he wants Lyanna. Think most people would still prefer King Scab to King Bangs-Teens-For-Prophecy.

LOL I don't think Rhaegar would have tried to sell them on the prophecy but I love that nickname. :D 

You have mischaracterized that paragraph. It doesn't "they couldn't care less" about his madness. It says that many lords still had good reason to support Aerys despite his madness. But that's still not even all the lords, and that doesn't mean no one cares about the fact that Aerys is mad.

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13 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL I don't think Rhaegar would have tried to sell them on the prophecy but I love that nickname. :D 

You have mischaracterized that paragraph. It doesn't "they couldn't care less" about his madness. It says that many lords still had good reason to support Aerys despite his madness. But that's still not even all the lords, and that doesn't mean no one cares about the fact that Aerys is mad.

I may have worded it hastily, but my point is that despite his well-known mental state, Aerys's actions up to this moment are not enough to trigger any serious armed uprising against him, not until he starts killing Lords. So it's not a solid argument Rhaegar can make in favor of overthrowing his father. Especially since his own behavior in this whole affair is suspect at best from any observer's eye.

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Just now, Jasta11 said:

I may have worded it hastily, but my point is that despite his well-known mental state, Aerys's actions up to this moment are not enough to trigger any serious armed uprising against him, not until he starts killing Lords. So it's not a solid argument Rhaegar can make in favor of overthrowing his father. Especially since his own behavior in this whole affair is suspect at best from any observer's eye.

This is where your logic breaks down. Aerys' actions hadn't yet triggered rebellion, this is true. But that doesn't mean his madness is not a solid argument to overthrow him. We basically know Rhaegar was attempting to use the Harrenhal tournament to overthrow his father, and madness was the likely pretext for the coup, so you are basically arguing against that commonly accepted narrative.

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34 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

This is where your logic breaks down. Aerys' actions hadn't yet triggered rebellion, this is true. But that doesn't mean his madness is not a solid argument to overthrow him. We basically know Rhaegar was attempting to use the Harrenhal tournament to overthrow his father, and madness was the likely pretext for the coup, so you are basically arguing against that commonly accepted narrative.

We don't actually know that this is what happened at Harrenhall, nor do we know this was the argument advanced even if it was. Nor does it mean that people would actually rise up against Aerys just for that, because in the end nobody did. The Starks rose up because their Lord and his heir were murdered and then their current Lord was threatened. The Stormlands rose up because their Lord was threatened. The Vale rose up because Jon had ties to the two above families and disobeyed a direct order from his king and so was backed into a corner, and the Riverlands only rose up later on when Hoster got good marriages out of the deal. And Tywin only moved in for the kill when the game was already over and done. The madness alone was not a trigger, Aerys's actions and the political overtures of the rebels were.

If Aerys stays in his keep to cut himself on the IT and rape his wife on the occasion, no one is going to form an armed rebellion to stop him, because none of the powerful Lords have a reason to care so long as they're left to their own devices.

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1 minute ago, Jasta11 said:

We don't actually know that this is what happened at Harrenhall, nor do we know this was the argument advanced even if it was. Nor does it mean that people would actually rise up against Aerys just for that, because in the end nobody did. The Starks rose up because their Lord and his heir were murdered and then their current Lord was threatened. The Stormlands rose up because their Lord was threatened. The Vale rose up because Jon had ties to the two above families and disobeyed a direct order from his king and so was backed into a corner, and the Riverlands only rose up later on when Hoster got good marriages out of the deal. And Tywin only moved in for the kill when the game was already over and done. The madness alone was not a trigger, Aerys's actions and the political overtures of the rebels were.

If Aerys stays in his keep to cut himself on the IT and rape his wife on the occasion, no one is going to form an armed rebellion to stop him, because none of the powerful Lords have a reason to care so long as they're left to their own devices.

The prince, it is said, had no interest in the tourney as a tourney; his intent was to gather the great lords of the realm together in what amounted to an informal Great Council, in order to discuss ways and means of dealing with the madness of his father, King Aerys II, possibly by means of a regency or a forced abdication.

This is obviously not 100% trustworthy, but I really see no reason to disbelieve this explanation.

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5 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The prince, it is said, had no interest in the tourney as a tourney; his intent was to gather the great lords of the realm together in what amounted to an informal Great Council, in order to discuss ways and means of dealing with the madness of his father, King Aerys II, possibly by means of a regency or a forced abdication.

This is obviously not 100% trustworthy, but I really see no reason to disbelieve this explanation.

Right then, let's assume this is actually what happened. Still doesn't tell me why it's a good plan or how Rhaegar is supposed to drum up the overwhelming support he needs to force an abdication on the reigning King when few Lords have any interest in seeing Aerys forcibly removed (quite the contrary).

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5 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Actually, I'm pretty sure Jon is not Ned's kid ;). I don't actually subscribe to R+L=J, but assuming you do, do you really think it is such a big leap in logic to think that because Jon is warg, his mother may have had the same power? Lyanna and Brandon are extremely closely related to the Stark kids, so we should consider the possibility that they had similar genetic abilities.

Ned and Benjen, and even Lyanna and Brandon themselves, were likely not aware of their siblings' magical animal powers. Jon, for example, denies his own powers for a long time after they start to affect him.

I'm pretty sure Ned and Benjen are also closely related to Lyanna and Brandon. Like, exactly as much related as L and B to each other. I'm not going speculate they were latent skinchangers because of that. If I did, I'd have to consider every other member of the Stark family, and everyone else with Stark blood, like the Karstarks, as possibly being skinchangers.

If no one was aware of of L and B's abilities, then what's the point of even including such a detail in the story? You could make an argument for L being Jon's real mother, I suppose, but then what's the literary significance of B also being a skinchanger? It holds no value wrt plot, themes or characterisation.

8 hours ago, JNR said:

Ah, well, you'll never get that explanation.  :thumbsup: 

You see, the important thing for some folks is to prop up Lyanna as the magical eighth-grade skinchanging horseriding wonder, who was also a devastating master-at-arms, who was also obviously the KotLT (combining the skinchanging horseriding aspect and the weapons mastery, you see).  

She was not into Ser Justin of House Bieber, like other girls her age.  She leaped tall buildings in a single bound and ate broken glass for fun, and skinchanging horses was but a trifle.

I don't mind the KotLT theory so much. I have my doubts about it (the deep voice is rather suspect) but at least there's more to back it up than a couple of words.

The way people try to change tomboy-ish female characters into cliche "badass chicks" who are, like, sooo different from other girls, is pretty annoying, though. To bring it back to the topic of this thread (sort of), I suspect the reason some people insist that L and R weren't in love, is because they can't fathom the notion that Lyanna might have some girly traits. Some, I think, also hate the idea that the series might have some feminine storylines (Rhaegar can't just be a fool in love - he must be doing all this wacky shit for political reasons/to save the world!)

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1 hour ago, Jasta11 said:

Right then, let's assume this is actually what happened. Still doesn't tell me why it's a good plan or how Rhaegar is supposed to drum up the overwhelming support he needs to force an abdication on the reigning King when few Lords have any interest in seeing Aerys forcibly removed (quite the contrary).

I didn't say it was a good plan, and I also argued that Rhaegar was trying to force a Stark alliance through Lyanna. So that's how.

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On 4/18/2017 at 1:42 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

1. He wouldn't technically need the High Septon if he married Lyanna via Old Gods instead of the Seven. And he doesn't need permission from Aerys if he is claiming the throne for himself. And yes, the Dornish certainly may push the claims of Rhaenys and Aegon, but they lack a large army to back up said claims.

2. Dorne does not have a large army. If Dorne rebels and secedes, who cares? Especially if Rhaegar thinks the Long Night 2.0 is coming. It's not like the Dornish have enough soldiers to actively invade the other kingdoms. That would be very different from defending their own desert with guerilla warfare.

3. Yes, Aerys coming to KL threw a wrench into Rhaegar's plan. But he did make a blatant political move in front of his paranoid father. He crowned Lyanna.

4. Again, my point is that this move should not have necessarily alienated House Stark. If anything, it looks like Rhaegar was trying to form an alliance through Lyanna.

5. Yes I think Rhaegar was primarily concerned with fulfilling prophecy, but fulfilling the prophecy likely required having a child/children with a woman with the right genes, that is some form of dragon-riding or skinchanging genes. There are not a lot of fertile ladies with such genes running around Westeros, so the realization that Lyanna was a skinchanger basically forced Rhaegar to try to have children with her. But at the same time, I think he was also trying to maintain the stability of the kingdom and take power from his father. Rhaegar may have correctly anticipated that the end of the Targaryen dynasty would also involve the deaths of Rhaegar's children. And Aerys staying in power was basically a ticking time bomb.

"Dorne's true military numbers have not yet been revealed, though George R. R. Martin has previously stated that Dorne is roughly equal in military strength to the north and Vale.[1]" http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Military_strength

The above dismantles many of the assumptions you've made about the North's relative military strength and Rhaegar's need for it, which poke even more holes into an already tenuous theory. So, at best, Rhaegar was, in your opinion, using Lyanna for her northern genes (Ice in the Ice and Fire). It's not impossible and I think it has crossed many people's minds. The skinchanger bit is a huge stretch to me and my guess is that since it appears to be a Northern (First Men) phenomena you connect it to Ice.

I do believe that Rhaegar was intending to force his father to abdicate and that there is something odd about his abduction/elopement/whatever of Lyanna. He singehandedly ruined his plans to ascend to the throne in so many ways that it isn't funny. However, for me, Occam's Razor insists that he was not thinking clearly because of some degree of love/infatuation.

Why would he be so far south (tower of love) if he intended to "parlay" with a Northern lord? He was even south of King's Landing, which makes no sense if he was trying to make allies north of it. They naturally sought for Lyanna at King's Landing. Any other family whose daughter/sister was taken without their permission would have reacted the same as Brandon Stark, so either Rhaegar's plan was not very good or he had no plan.

Also note that your argument that he could just marry under the Old Gods would make him polygamist, which the title claims he is not. He would need the help of the High Septon as his marriage to Elia, like all other members of the royal family, is annointed by the High Septon. The same High Septon that annoints a king during the process of his coronation... The same High Septon whose very seat is in King's Landing since Aegon's Conquest. Alienating the Faith is not a good way to gain the support of anyone, high or lowborn, south of the neck.

To be fair, the Dornish would probably not be terribly upset if he just kept Lyanna as a paramour. One of the Targaryen kings (Aegon the Unworthy?) kept a ridiculous number of paramours/mistresses from the nobility, so it wouldn't be unprecedented. The same king legitimized his bastards from some of them on his deathbed, but that's a shitstorm for another discussion. Elia was said to have loved beautiful Rhaegar, so of course the Martells would be unhappy about it, but it's a common practice among the Dornish. Just to throw you a bone, no one says that Lyanna's child had to be legitimate to fulfill a prophecy.

 

While GRRM does not always go for the direct, obvious plot twists, you can always look back and say "Ohhhhhh why didn't I see that before?" The argument you've laid out doesn't have that kind of clarity.

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Aerys II's public image was pretty much destroyed by his very public erratic behavior at Harrenhal.

However, Rhaegar became very likely a mad prince in the wake of the entire Lyanna affair (regardless whether he publicly married or just abducted Lyanna). Nobody would have understood that kind of behavior in a grown-up and married man who already had children of his own.

You can take a mistress, of course, but not by means of abduction and forced marriage, and certainly not the daughter of a great lord who has long been betrothed to another great lord, your own cousin. Being married to a Princess of Dorne at the same time makes this even worse. Rhaegar was not only slapping the Martells, the Starks, and the Baratheons in the face with this whole thing, he was also acting in a way that was very likely to provoke the war of his royal father, the Faith, and cause a lot of irritation, confusion, and resentment amongst many Targaryen loyalists as well as lords and knights who were neutral on the entire issue.

A man in his twenties who cannot resist the urge to abduct a 14-15-year-old girl who isn't even considered a classical beauty is not very likely the kind of guy you want for a king. It is erratic and irrational behavior, the kind of thing you would expect in a madman. This is not a man who is passionately in love. Rhaegar is not Duncan the Small or Jaehaerys II, defying convention and breaking his betrothal to marry his true love. He is already married, taking a woman he simply has no right to take.

He is much more like Prince Daemon during the Dance who abandoned his royal wife, his son, and the quest for power (which allegedly had dominated his entire life up to this point) in exchange for the passing pleasures some 14-year-old bastard girl could give him. That was insane, too.

Rhaegar is exactly in the same category. He was as much a problem for the Targaryen cause as Mad Aerys. Robert did not hate Aerys all that much. He hated Rhaegar.

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aerys II's public image was pretty much destroyed by his very public erratic behavior at Harrenhal.

However, Rhaegar became very likely a mad prince in the wake of the entire Lyanna affair (regardless whether he publicly married or just abducted Lyanna). Nobody would have understood that kind of behavior in a grown-up and married man who already had children of his own.

You can take a mistress, of course, but not by means of abduction and forced marriage, and certainly not the daughter of a great lord who has long been betrothed to another great lord, your own cousin. Being married to a Princess of Dorne at the same time makes this even worse. Rhaegar was not only slapping the Martells, the Starks, and the Baratheons in the face with this whole thing, he was also acting in a way that was very likely to provoke the war of his royal father, the Faith, and cause a lot of irritation, confusion, and resentment amongst many Targaryen loyalists as well as lords and knights who were neutral on the entire issue.

A man in his twenties who cannot resist the urge to abduct a 14-15-year-old girl who isn't even considered a classical beauty is not very likely the kind of guy you want for a king. It is erratic and irrational behavior, the kind of thing you would expect in a madman. This is not a man who is passionately in love. Rhaegar is not Duncan the Small or Jaehaerys II, defying convention and breaking his betrothal to marry his true love. He is already married, taking a woman he simply has no right to take.

He is much more like Prince Daemon during the Dance who abandoned his royal wife, his son, and the quest for power (which allegedly had dominated his entire life up to this point) in exchange for the passing pleasures some 14-year-old bastard girl could give him. That was insane, too.

Rhaegar is exactly in the same category. He was as much a problem for the Targaryen cause as Mad Aerys. Robert did not hate Aerys all that much. He hated Rhaegar.

Couldn't have put it better in regards to Rhaegar acting so oddly with the "abduction" (depending on your bias/view). His actions are so systematically destructive to his cause it's jarring. And certainly in discordance with the "perfect prince" portrait that others always seem to paint of him.

I'm fairly convinced there is a missing piece to the story, for good or ill, regarding our perception of his character. In the end, we have to admit that there is conflict between the experiences of people like Selmy and Rhaegar's behavior after winning the tourney. Perhaps he heard a new prophecy, perhaps he reached a snapping point mentally, perhaps he finally just gave up and decided to do what he felt like for a change, or perhaps he was charming and manipulative and just had people fooled. Perhaps there's still a chance (Bran? Howland Reed?) for us to learn the truth. But until such a tidbit is ever revealed, I'm with you that he acted with the irrationality of a madman. 

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11 minutes ago, Traverys said:

Couldn't have put it better in regards to Rhaegar acting so oddly with the "abduction" (depending on your bias/view). His actions are so systematically destructive to his cause it's jarring. And certainly in discordance with the "perfect prince" portrait that others always seem to paint of him.

I expect Rhaegar to have been a man who was tired of being the dutiful son by the time he met and felt a very strong passion and desire for Lyanna. You don't really know the power of love until it hits you. And this kind of thing certainly can drive you 'mad', causing you to make very bad choices. Prince Duncan certainly can also be seen as a 'mad prince' because the average man in Westeros certainly would consider it insane to give up a crown for a woman, and a commoner at that.

How Rhaegar was perceived by the general public of Westeros as well as his father's court, in Dorne, the rebels, etc. is completely unclear. All we know is that Robert hated him, that's it. There is a lot of information missing there. I'm pretty sure Aerys II declared his son a traitor and forced him and Lyanna to go underground, interpreting the abduction (and subsequent marriage, if it took place) as confirmation that the Starks and Rhaegar were preparing to rebel against him.

11 minutes ago, Traverys said:

I'm fairly convinced there is a missing piece to the story, for good or ill, regarding our perception of his character. In the end, we have to admit that there is conflict between the experiences of people like Selmy and Rhaegar's behavior after winning the tourney. Perhaps he heard a new prophecy, perhaps he reached a snapping point mentally, perhaps he finally just gave up and decided to do what he felt like for a change, or perhaps he was charming and manipulative and just had people fooled. Perhaps there's still a chance (Bran? Howland Reed?) for us to learn the truth. But until such a tidbit is ever revealed, I'm with you that he acted with the irrationality of a madman. 

I'm pretty sure we'll get a pretty complete picture on Rhaegar and Lyanna in subsequent books. And prophecy certainly is likely to figure into that to some degree. But that would be Rhaegar's personal motivation, not something the general public would be aware of. His public image still be that of a madman or a lovestruck fool.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I expect Rhaegar to have been a man who was tired of being the dutiful son by the time he met and felt a very strong passion and desire for Lyanna. You don't really know the power of love until it hits you. And this kind of thing certainly can drive you 'mad', causing you to make very bad choices. Prince Duncan certainly can also be seen as a 'mad prince' because the average man in Westeros certainly would consider it insane to give up a crown for a woman, and a commoner at that.

How Rhaegar was perceived by the general public of Westeros as well as his father's court, in Dorne, the rebels, etc. is completely unclear. All we know is that Robert hated him, that's it. There is a lot of information missing there. I'm pretty sure Aerys II declared his son a traitor and forced him and Lyanna to go underground, interpreting the abduction (and subsequent marriage, if it took place) as confirmation that the Starks and Rhaegar were preparing to rebel against him.

I'm pretty sure we'll get a pretty complete picture on Rhaegar and Lyanna in subsequent books. And prophecy certainly is likely to figure into that to some degree. But that would be Rhaegar's personal motivation, not something the general public would be aware of. His public image still be that of a madman or a lovestruck fool.

It's funny how polarizing the views on him are. Rhaegar as the madman rapist is (as Littlefinger on the show says) "the story [they] tell over and over until [they] forget that it's a lie" because Rhaegar lost and died. The other side (Jon Connington, Selmy, Cersei) all paint an overwhelmingly positive image of Rhaegar. The original post of this thread is guilty of the latter, even going as far is to blame Brandon Stark for spoiling Rhaegar's genius (?) plan to rope the Stark's into his rebellion. The likely truth is that Rhaegar was somewhere in the nitty-gritty realm of flawed and grey like everyone else in the books. 

I thought I would share with everyone a link to an interesting thread that covers more realistic possibilities on what we actually know about Rhaegar and some of the other players in Robert's Rebellion:

I was tempted to make a similar thread but I thought the original post was full of (mostly) rational thoughts on the matter. I thought the tidbit about Benjen being close to Lyanna and then joining the Night's Watch soon after the rebellion's conclusion was an interesting catch. It's one of those little niches that GRRM likes to sneak plot twists into because we otherwise think that it's not unusual for a Northern thirdborn son to join the watch... but hadn't his circumstances changed with the death of Brandon and his father? Perhaps he joined as an act of penance for doing something that was helpful to Lyanna and Rhaegar (whatever that actually was), inadvertently leading to the death of his father and brother. I find theories like this the most compelling thing about this forum. Cheers!

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22 hours ago, Traverys said:

It's funny how polarizing the views on him are. Rhaegar as the madman rapist is (as Littlefinger on the show says) "the story [they] tell over and over until [they] forget that it's a lie" because Rhaegar lost and died.

Only Robert tells the rapist story. As of yet we have another character to repeat it. But there is certainly some truth to that. Lyanna was the daughter of a great lord and a betrothed maiden. Her sexuality was not hers to control. It belonged to her father, her brothers, and her future husband. And in that sense Rhaegar was a rapist. He dishonored Lord Rickard Stark, Brandon Stark, Eddard Stark, Benjen Stark, and Robert Baratheon with his behavior even if Lyanna went along willingly or even instigated the entire thing.

Just as Robb later insulted Walder Frey and his sons and grandsons when he married Jeyne Westerling.

22 hours ago, Traverys said:

The other side (Jon Connington, Selmy, Cersei) all paint an overwhelmingly positive image of Rhaegar.

Those are not complete pictures, though. Cersei and Selmy were never close to Rhaegar and they just remember certain interactions they had with him (or images of him they had created in their mind). No one ever really gives a complete picture of Rhaegar after Harrenhal. Not even Jon Connington. He reminiscences about Rhaegar the youth and is obsessed with his alleged failure at the Battle of the Bells. But just as Doran Martell rediscovered his Targaryen allegiance after the death of Elia and her children Connington might have changed his view on Rhaegar and Aerys after they were killed. I doubt Connington approved of the Lyanna affair or rejoiced when Aerys stripped him of his titles and exiled him. But once the Targaryens were gone he would have felt very bad (just as we all tend to feel bad when people we love die before we can reconcile with them), jumping on the chance to redeem himself by supporting Rhaegar's son.

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On 4/21/2017 at 2:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

Only Robert tells the rapist story. As of yet we have another character to repeat it. But there is certainly some truth to that. Lyanna was the daughter of a great lord and a betrothed maiden. Her sexuality was not hers to control. It belonged to her father, her brothers, and her future husband. And in that sense Rhaegar was a rapist. He dishonored Lord Rickard Stark, Brandon Stark, Eddard Stark, Benjen Stark, and Robert Baratheon with his behavior even if Lyanna went along willingly or even instigated the entire thing.

Just as Robb later insulted Walder Frey and his sons and grandsons when he married Jeyne Westerling.

Those are not complete pictures, though. Cersei and Selmy were never close to Rhaegar and they just remember certain interactions they had with him (or images of him they had created in their mind). No one ever really gives a complete picture of Rhaegar after Harrenhal. Not even Jon Connington. He reminiscences about Rhaegar the youth and is obsessed with his alleged failure at the Battle of the Bells. But just as Doran Martell rediscovered his Targaryen allegiance after the death of Elia and her children Connington might have changed his view on Rhaegar and Aerys after they were killed. I doubt Connington approved of the Lyanna affair or rejoiced when Aerys stripped him of his titles and exiled him. But once the Targaryens were gone he would have felt very bad (just as we all tend to feel bad when people we love die before we can reconcile with them), jumping on the chance to redeem himself by supporting Rhaegar's son.

Rape's classical definition used to refer to the act of abducting a woman, though GRRM is pretty explicit about his use of the modern definition.

It's a little disappointing that Jon hasn't mentioned more about Rhaegar than he has... Of all people he actually had an interpersonal relationship with him and has spent over a decade raising the man's son. And his POV goes out of its way to mention how he felt Elia didn't deserve him but doesn't mention anything about Lyanna.  Gah!  One of those moments you know GRRM is chuckling to himself while he writes.

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On 18.04.2017 г. at 11:28 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

 He would have had to pick between Aerys or Rhaegar or stupidly staying neutral.

Staying neutral is not stupid,had that scenario happen and Tywin remained neutral we could've had a hour of the lion scenario.. And how stupid it would be to march in force only for the ironborn to sack lannisport while the army is away? In almost all battle in the books(including all books,even the dunk and egg and rogue prince) remaining neutral would've been the best for most of those who joined whichever side..

On 19.04.2017 г. at 1:12 AM, Jasta11 said:

The more I think about it, the more I think this is a Cercei-tier bad plan.

Perhaps she was his Jaime and he her own Cersei? Would explain why he cheated on her :D

On 19.04.2017 г. at 3:29 AM, Jasta11 said:

Right then, let's assume this is actually what happened. Still doesn't tell me why it's a good plan or how Rhaegar is supposed to drum up the overwhelming support he needs to force an abdication on the reigning King when few Lords have any interest in seeing Aerys forcibly removed (quite the contrary).

I agree no one would have cared as long as they were left alone,best thing to to is armed palace coup as ned tried to do when he was betrayed by littlefinger...

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