Rhaegar wasn't polygamous, he was dumping Elia for Lyanna

[purple-eyes]

12 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

He may have been a good buy but he still gave in to his heart's desire.  Robb was not such a bad guy but his heart led him to break his oath to an important ally during the middle of war.  Jon is not such a bad guy but he betrayed his office and his men in order to help the girl that he loved in Arya.  Rhaegar, Robb, and Jon followed their hearts and allowed their love for a girl to compromise their judgement.  All three betrayed their loyal followers and all for only their love of a girl.  Those three died because they were not fit to rule. 

Rhaegar as a married man and father of two does not deserve to be compared with Robb Stark. if Robb already married Roslin and had two children with her, I highly doubt he would abandon them to marry Jeyne. 

Jon Snow's situation is slightly different from theirs. Arya is the last straw to break the camel. If not due to all the other tragedies of Stark family, Jon would not do it only for Arya. 

 

[purple-eyes]

42 minutes ago, Rosetta Stone said:

GRRM has said nothing of the sort.  Besides, Jon Snowflake is the main screw-up in the novels, not the ultimate hero.  George will want to stay consistent with the internal logic already set in the story.   That is, Rhaegar was just a prince and he never had the authority to divorce Elia.  Any byproduct of his relationship with Lyanna is a bastard. 

Was it Rhaegar's intentions to eventually divorce Elia?  The short and the long answer is, it doesn't matter.  He could divorce Elia if and when he becomes king.  But we know he never became the king.  King Aerys was still alive when Robert's war hammer turned off poor Rhaegar's life switch.  Intentions really do not matter because Rhaegar was never in a position to carry out those plans.  

somebody is going to save the world from ice zombies. and it has to be Jon Snow. 

Rhaegar can establish himself as king secretly. Say three KG crowned him and recognized him as king in Tower of Joy. Then he can sign a decree to make his first marriage invalid thus he can marry Lyanna and make her queen. 

Rhaegar and lyanna could very well be king and queen of Tower of Joy. 

[Ygrain]

On 15. 4. 2017 at 2:04 AM, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Look, you may be right, but I think it is a stretch to lay blame on the maesters, as well as to claim that eloping and having a baby was the only way before exhausting other options (how about explaining the plan and asking Rickard first before assuming his answer?).

Well... and how can you be so sure that Rickard didn't know? It's Brandon, not Rickard, who throws a tantrum, and when Rickard comes to KL, it's all about Brandon, not Lyanna (admittedly, we don't hear much about what happened then, though). Is there anything to point that they didn't  have Rickard's quiet approval, which was only botched by Brandon's rashness?

On 15. 4. 2017 at 2:58 AM, Holley 4 Barrel said:

It doesn't matter what Rhaegar wanted or what he was trying to do.  He cannot legally marry Lyanna.  He was already married and that marriage with Elia was consummated, two children in evidence.  He doesn't have the authority to legally divorce Elia Martell-Targaryen. 

Please, show where it is stated that 1) there is a law against polygamy, and that 2) Rhaegar would be bound to follow it. It's not like the Targs don't do what no-one else in Westeros does (incest), after all. Polygamy would definitely be problematic and not accepted by everyone, but that's not the same as what you claim.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

22 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

That Rhaegar vision wasn't just suspect, the way it was written suggests the "three heads" bit was not something that was actually said. We can't count on that as solid evidence that he was looking to gain three heads through his offspring. We also can't assume "three heads" is actually written into in the prophecy. We can't know for sure if it is, or if it's just something Aemon felt was necessary because of the symbolic weight it held for his family.

The quote you provided regarding Lyanna and Brandon says nothing about them being skinchangers. They are described as having "wolf-blood" because they were a wild hot-blooded pair, not because they could skinchange. Are we to believe that Dany is a skinchanger for having "blood of the dragon"?

Like I said, you can't force an alliance by marriage, or even through pregnancy. It won't end well - just look at what happened to Robb and Jeyne. Agreeing to the alliance makes the Starks powerful enemies in Dorne and Storm's End, and it sends the message that they are Rhaegar's bitches. There's not even a guarantee that they'd win the war. Why deal with that headache, when they could just lop off head Rhaegar's head as soon as they get Lyanna back? They might even still be able to keep the betrothal to Robert by claiming Lyanna was forcibly taken by Rhaegar. Otherwise, she'd still be relatively easy to pawn off, just as Lysa was. So it wouldn't be just a dick move, it'd be incredibly stupid as well.

 

 

The fact that he had 2 children named Aegon and Rhaenys implies he was expecting to have a daughter named Visenya, and Dany even points out the fact that Visenya is missing. Could Aemon have been referring to the Targaryen sigil/history and not some older prophecy when he talked about the 3 heads? It's possible, but it's way more likely that he is referring to the PtwP prophecy as he has read it.

Yes, obviously it is never explicitly spelled out for us that Lyanna and Brandon were skinchangers. But the language that they were "centaurs" and had "wolf-blood" is as big a clue as GRRM is ever going to give us, ignore it if you want. Are we to believe that Dany is a skinchanger for having blood of the dragon? Um... in case you didn't realize, people who have "blood of the dragon" can often ride dragons, which is extremely similar to skinchanging. So... yes.

The Starks would not be able to "pawn off" Lyanna like Lysa. The only reason Lysa was acceptable was because she had been proven fertile, and Jon Arryn desperately needed a new heir as well as the Tully alliance. The Baratheons would probably not accept a Robert-Lyanna marriage if she has already given birth to Rhaegar's child. And I don't see how the Robb-Jeyne situation is relevant.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaegar would have needed the permission of his royal father and the High Septon to set aside Elia and take another wife. He would have never gotten the permission from either of that. Elia had been a faithful and fertile wife, giving Rhaegar a healthy daughter and son, making it exceedingly unlikely that anybody would have accepted or approved of him setting her aside.

Kings can do whatever the hell they want to and with their (sister-)wives but princes are stuck with whoever they are married to.

And from a political point of view Rickard Stark's support would essentially be worth effectively nothing. Rickard was a lord without much power. An alliance between Rhaegar and Tywin and a Cersei-Rhaegar marriage could have made a difference, or a marriage between Rhaegar and a sister of Mace Tyrell. But Rhaegar-Lyanna were worth nothing on the political field.

Lord Lyonel Baratheon crowned himself the new Storm King because Prince Duncan spurned his daughter. Lord Robert Baratheon was Aegon V's great-grandson just as Rhaegar was. It is very unlikely that he needed Aerys' command to kill him to remember his love for Lyanna, the stain on his honor, and his royal ancestry.

The prophecy may have played into Rhaegar's actions but since the Lyanna thing was just madness and stupidity from any rational political viewpoint we can safely say that it would have played a very small role, especially in light of the fact that Rhaegar obviously believed a son of Elia Martell was the promised prince whose song was the Song of Ice and Fire even after he had met Lyanna Stark at Harrenhal.

The deciding factor there would have been Rhaegar's mad love - or perhaps even madness and love. You have to be mad to actually believe a prophecy compels you to abduct a woman like Lyanna who essentially sits at the heart of a very intricate net of political connections.

The prophecy may have meant Rhaegar needed a second wife or a woman to give him another son but that doesn't mean that woman has to be a 14-15-year-old maiden named Lyanna Stark.

Why would he need permission from Aerys if he is trying to take the throne himself?

How is Rickard's support worth "nothing"? He had, idk, let's estimate at least 20,000 men to send into battle, and those men could potentially either fight for Rhaegar or against him in war. That's a fairly large amount of power. Additionally, Brandon was about to be married to Cat, meaning the Tully forces would likely end up on the same side as the Starks in any upcoming war. And again, Rhaegar should be able to count on Tywin siding with him against Aerys even without marrying Cersei, because Tywin hated Aerys.

I'm not sure how "obvious" Rhaegar's exact beliefs regarding the prophecy were. I think he came to the conclusion with Aemon that 3 dragon riders were necessary and thought he would have 3 children who would end up fulfilling the prophecy, and he needed a wife with the right blood to have said children. But Elia could not bear any more children after Aegon, and even before the birth of Aegon (when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna) it was clear that Elia's health was not great and she did not handle childbirth well, which probably helped push Rhaegar toward his decision to crown Lyanna.

I am arguing that the woman had to have the right blood, that is some sort of dragon-riding or skinchanging gene. Lyanna was a skinchanger and thus provided Rhaegar with an opportunity he couldn't pass up. But yeah, regardless of what happened I definitely think Rhaegar was prioritizing prophecy over politics.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

23 hours ago, Tralalala said:

Doesn't much matter,but Rhaegar is exactly the one to blame,he broke his vow for no good reason and had an heir apparent and a spare in his brother(Viserys) trying to set Ellia's children aside without killing them or wall and silent sisters is just inpossible they will always be claimants and Aegon looks valyrian while Jon assuming of course the he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son looks like a northern savage little above a wildling. Even if Lyanna was the knight of the laughing tree,Rhaegar had no buissness even crowning her with Ellia present at the tourney let alone eloping on some madman's prophecy crusade.

I agree Brandon Stark's a fool but he may not have known how mad Aerys is and quite frankly if it was Aegon(egg from dunk and egg) he wouldn't be executed and the situation most likely resolved somewhat peacefully.

Rhaegar was a coward and i don't mean afraid of a battle i mean afraid of his father,if he was truly such a wonderful prince why didn't he do a surprise coup? No need for extra planning just bring enough men to the red keep(As Ned tried to do) and sway the kingsguard or as you have enough men fight them? Imprison his father and declare himself regent,but no he goes after a prophecy and goes to abbandon his own children for the young love he shares with Lyanna(bleh) or in the words of lord Walder "The young remember nothing when they see a pretty face and a nice firm pair of teats, isn’t that so"

Viserys was not Rhaegar's spare heir. Viserys was the heir to Aerys, because Aerys cut Rhaegar and his children out of the line of succession.

I actually think R+L=Dany, but that's irrelevant.  

I surprise coup is infinitely less useful than an organized one. If he just imprisoned his father without getting political support first, many lords would declare for Aerys against Rhaegar, and war would follow. On the other hand, if he got a bunch of powerful lords on his side first, he could potentially force Aerys to abdicate peacefully, which it seems was Rhaegar's original plan.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

19 hours ago, Rhaegar Frey said:

What I find strange about Rhaegar is that it seems like he was a really good guy. So it is hard to believe he would break his bond of marriage with Elia just because he loved another woman. I think it has more to do with the "Ice and Fire" prophecy rather than just love. It would seem very douchy just to leave Elia because he fell in love with Lyanna.

In addition to being douchy, it would also be extremely romantic for a GRRM story. GRRM's take on relationships is painfully realistic and goes completely against the standard tropes of romantic sacrifice.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

6 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

somebody is going to save the world from ice zombies. and it has to be Jon Snow. 

Rhaegar can establish himself as king secretly. Say three KG crowned him and recognized him as king in Tower of Joy. Then he can sign a decree to make his first marriage invalid thus he can marry Lyanna and make her queen. 

Rhaegar and lyanna could very well be king and queen of Tower of Joy. 

LOL you are assuming the world needs to be "saved" from evil ice zombies. And why couldn't the ultimate hero be a bastard? And why does Jon specifically have to be the one to "save the world"? In case you haven't noticed, GRRM likes to break tropes not follow them  

And besides, cool people know that B+A=Jon and R+L=Dany, so by your logic Dany should save the world  

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Why would he need permission from Aerys if he is trying to take the throne himself?

Because he didn't have the throne himself at that point. Prince Daemon also wanted to set aside Rhea Royce for Rhaenyra and he was a dragonrider yet his dragonless elder brother, the king, forbid it and he was stuck with a loveless wife until she finally died.

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

How is Rickard's support worth "nothing"? He had, idk, let's estimate at least 20,000 men to send into battle, and those men could potentially either fight for Rhaegar or against him in war. That's a fairly large amount of power. Additionally, Brandon was about to be married to Cat, meaning the Tully forces would likely end up on the same side as the Starks in any upcoming war. And again, Rhaegar should be able to count on Tywin siding with him against Aerys even without marrying Cersei, because Tywin hated Aerys.

Why should Tywin back Rhaegar instead of Aerys if backing Aerys could result in Viserys, Aerys' new heir, being married to Cersei? Tywin wanted to marry his daughter into House Targaryen and his grandson on the Iron Throne. He did not want to back some prince who was preferring lesser women as his wives.

Hoster Tully demanded quite a steep price for his support in the Rebellion, and that was at a point when three great houses had allied against the Iron Throne. Lysa refused to help Robb in his war, Paxter stayed out of Renly's campaign, Walder refused to support despite Genna's marriage to his son, Doran Martell needed to be forced to commit his forces to Aerys, etc. Marriage alliances mean little and less when you think a war is hopeless or pointless or when you feel it is stupid and foolish enterprise.

Keep in mind that many Riverlords were staunch Targaryen followers and nothing protected the Riverlands from retaliation from the Crownlands, the Reach, or the West.

If Rickard and Rhaegar had rebelled against Aerys Robert and the Stormlords would have stood with Aerys.

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I'm not sure how "obvious" Rhaegar's exact beliefs regarding the prophecy were. I think he came to the conclusion with Aemon that 3 dragon riders were necessary and thought he would have 3 children who would end up fulfilling the prophecy, and he needed a wife with the right blood to have said children.

What we know from Kevan is that Rhaegar wanted sons from Elia. We don't know whether he thought he had to father all the three dragon heads. It could be he believed they were Viserys, Aegon, and another son he wanted after the birth of Aegon. The idea that Rhaenys was one of the three dragon heads is as of yet not confirmed.

Keep in mind that Aemon thinks he himself could be one of those heads if he weren't so old. But he is Daenerys' great-granduncle, not her brother or first cousin.

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But Elia could not bear any more children after Aegon, and even before the birth of Aegon (when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna) it was clear that Elia's health was not great and she did not handle childbirth well, which probably helped push Rhaegar toward his decision to crown Lyanna.

No, that doesn't make any sense. Rhaegar must have stumbled on Lyanna when investigating the mystery knight as per his royal father's orders and only afterwards he did join and decide to win the tourney to honor Lyanna, rewarding her for her courage and commitment to the codes of chivalry. And in addition it may have been a testament for the feelings he had for her.

The idea that prophecy figured into that in any way makes little sense because only Aegon's birth - the birth of a male child after Harrenhal - would have confirmed Rhaegar's belief that the comet in the night of Aegon's conception was connected to the prophecy. Only then could he be sure that his son was indeed the promised prince.

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I am arguing that the woman had to have the right blood, that is some sort of dragon-riding or skinchanging gene. Lyanna was a skinchanger and thus provided Rhaegar with an opportunity he couldn't pass up. But yeah, regardless of what happened I definitely think Rhaegar was prioritizing prophecy over politics.

Nothing indicates that the prophecy demanded that the mother of the promised prince or one of the dragon heads has to have skinchanger blood. Not to mention that nothing indicates that Lyanna was a skinchanger.

Also keep in mind that Rhaegar's great-grandmother was Betha Blackwood, and that - due to the incest practiced by his parents and grandparents - he himself - and Daenerys right now - are essentially half-Blackwoods. They don't need Stark blood create skinchanger offspring.

And if the prophecy gave any indication that Stark or skinchanger blood was important then Rhaegar would have been betrothed to Lyanna Stark, a Blackwood cousin, or some other such family. Not to Elia Martell.

[Hodor the Articulate]

50 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The fact that he had 2 children named Aegon and Rhaenys implies he was expecting to have a daughter named Visenya, and Dany even points out the fact that Visenya is missing. Could Aemon have been referring to the Targaryen sigil/history and not some older prophecy when he talked about the 3 heads? It's possible, but it's way more likely that he is referring to the PtwP prophecy as he has read it.

Yes, obviously it is never explicitly spelled out for us that Lyanna and Brandon were skinchangers. But the language that they were "centaurs" and had "wolf-blood" is as big a clue as GRRM is ever going to give us, ignore it if you want. Are we to believe that Dany is a skinchanger for having blood of the dragon? Um... in case you didn't realize, people who have "blood of the dragon" can often ride dragons, which is extremely similar to skinchanging. So... yes.

The Starks would not be able to "pawn off" Lyanna like Lysa. The only reason Lysa was acceptable was because she had been proven fertile, and Jon Arryn desperately needed a new heir as well as the Tully alliance. The Baratheons would probably not accept a Robert-Lyanna marriage if she has already given birth to Rhaegar's child. And I don't see how the Robb-Jeyne situation is relevant.

That's still not proof "three heads" is written into any prophecy. Besides, Rhaenys was named while Rhaegar still believed himself to be TPtwP.

The idea that Lyanna and Brandon are skinchangers is pure crackpot. Centaur and wolf-blood are metaphors, used to characterise L and B as wild in temperament, and nothing else. If they had such abilities, Ned or anyone else close to them would have remarked on it. Also, should we assume all animal-metaphors are indications that the subject is skinchanger? In that case, Varys' "little birds" must all be skinchangers too. Brynden "Blackfish" Tully and Shadrick the "Mad Mouse" as well. And what about Edmure's "floppy fish"? I suppose that means Edmure is skinchanging fish (or his genitals are at least)?

We've seen first-hand what both dragon-riding and skinchanging is like, and the only similarity is that they involve bonding with an animal. Skinchanging requires the human to take over the host animal's mind. Dany does no such thing.

Jon Arryn had not married Lysa until the war began. Since this hypothetical takes place just before that, Jon would have had his pick. Lyanna might also have been offered Tyrion, and she would have still been valued by various Stark bannermen, lesser lords and landed knights. Robert might still accept the original betrothal as a means of sealing an alliance, even if he disliked Lyanna by then. Rhaegar's child would of course be considered a bastard in this scenario, if she would even be allowed to carry it to term.

Robb/Jeyne is relevant because their marriage forced their respective families into an alliance they had not agreed upon prior to the marriage. Look how that turned out. The Westerling matriarch gave Jeyne potions to prevent pregnancy, and plotted against Robb with his enemies. So, clearly, marriages do not guarantee alliances. No one would plan to do this.

[Hodor the Articulate]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

In addition to being douchy, it would also be extremely romantic for a GRRM story. GRRM's take on relationships is painfully realistic and goes completely against the standard tropes of romantic sacrifice.

GRRM writes plenty of romance into the series - Jon and Ygritte, Dany and Drogo, Dany and Daario, Ned and Catelyn. You might as well add Jaime and Brienne too. Sure, almost all of these relationships end in death, but so did Lyanna and Rhaegar.

As I've said before, R+L is a subversion of romantic tropes. Whereas a romantic story might have Lyanna and Rhaegar run off to Braavos, to live as humble merchants with a dozen fat babies, GRRM assigns consequences to their actions. Giving into their passions leads to war, and eventually, their own deaths. Fairly realistic, I'd say.

[Tralalala]

3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Viserys was not Rhaegar's spare heir. Viserys was the heir to Aerys, because Aerys cut Rhaegar and his children out of the line of succession.

I actually think R+L=Dany, but that's irrelevant.  

I surprise coup is infinitely less useful than an organized one. If he just imprisoned his father without getting political support first, many lords would declare for Aerys against Rhaegar, and war would follow. On the other hand, if he got a bunch of powerful lords on his side first, he could potentially force Aerys to abdicate peacefully, which it seems was Rhaegar's original plan.

That was later,at the start Rhaegar was the heir if Aerys died and assuming Rhaegar and Elia don't have anymore children Viserys becomes spare after Aegon.

I myself don't believe in any of these bullshit theories but i dislike both jon and dany...

I disagree with you on that,if he had enough soldiers in the red keep and imprisoned Aerys,who will exactly declare for Aerys and for what? There's no war declared there is no army and their purpose(Aerys) is already under lock and key,and if they threaten war he could call a great council or simply have Aerys transported by ship to dragonstone and that ship only needs to sink...

Point is Aerys was mad and Rhaegar was slow,if he had acted more quickly and decisively he wouldn't need to worry that varys is watching him or whatnot and could've saved a lot of trouble to a lot of people,instead he shames his wife and her family plus himself to boot, before every lord gathered at harenhall and for what?

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

In addition to being douchy, it would also be extremely romantic for a GRRM story. GRRM's take on relationships is painfully realistic and goes completely against the standard tropes of romantic sacrifice.

GRRM is a self-professed romantic, and he does write romances - only in his, people usually don't live happily ever after, if they live at all.

2 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Centaur and wolf-blood are metaphors, used to characterise L and B as wild in temperament, and nothing else. If they had such abilities, Ned or anyone else close to them would have remarked on it.

Agreed on "wolf blood" as a synonym of hot and rash temperament, but "centaur" refers to very good horsemanship, and that may be a hint at some level of warging skills that became manifest in a very inconspicuous way, being good with horses.

 

2 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Robert might still accept the original betrothal as a means of sealing an alliance, even if he disliked Lyanna by then. Rhaegar's child would of course be considered a bastard in this scenario, if she would even be allowed to carry it to term.

Robert would certainly want to if he could maintain the impression that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped, but there is no way he would marry her if he knew she went willingly. But even in the first scenario, I doubt that Robert would eventually put his infatuation above his pride as the head of House Baratheon and Lord Paramount of the Stormlands because a dishonoured ("soiled") Lyanna would be a huge blow to his status. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

Robert would certainly want to if he could maintain the impression that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped, but there is no way he would marry her if he knew she went willingly. But even in the first scenario, I doubt that Robert would eventually put his infatuation above his pride as the head of House Baratheon and Lord Paramount of the Stormlands because a dishonoured ("soiled") Lyanna would be a huge blow to his status. 

There's no way Lyanna would go into it without kicking and screaming, either, but that's not the point I was making. I was just trying point out that Lyanna had not lost her "value" as a political piece. As a highborn daughter of a Great House, she's still plenty desirable for marriage, even if she is no longer considered personally attractive.

1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

Agreed on "wolf blood" as a synonym of hot and rash temperament, but "centaur" refers to very good horsemanship, and that may be a hint at some level of warging skills that became manifest in a very inconspicuous way, being good with horses.

Well, I couldn't remember the exact context for the "centaur" comment. Still, come on! You can't base a theory around one word, or I'll have have to start a crackpot about Edmure's skinchanging dick.

[Moiraine Sedai]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Also keep in mind that Rhaegar's great-grandmother was Betha Blackwood, and that - due to the incest practiced by his parents and grandparents - he himself - and Daenerys right now - are essentially half-Blackwoods. They don't need Stark blood create skinchanger offspring.

And if the prophecy gave any indication that Stark or skinchanger blood was important then Rhaegar would have been betrothed to Lyanna Stark, a Blackwood cousin, or some other such family. Not to Elia Martell.

The Blackwoods are not particularly wealthy nor influential.  I wonder what role, if any, they will play in this story going forward.  What attracted Aegon IV and V to a Blackwood girl?  A family like the Blackwoods would normally fall under the radar and not receive any attention from the ruling royal family. 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

There's no way Lyanna would go into it without kicking and screaming, either, but that's not the point I was making. I was just trying point out that Lyanna had not lost her "value" as a political piece. As a highborn daughter of a Great House, she's still plenty desirable for marriage, even if she is no longer considered personally attractive.

This has nothing to do with attractivity, the point is the loss of status and thus, at least partly, of political value. The Lord Paramount's wife cannot be the subject of gossip and snickers behind her Lord husband's back, who would be seen as taking another man's leftovers, therefore Lyanna would have to marry a man of lower status, for whom the Stark blood would balance her publically known loss of virginity.

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Well, I couldn't remember the exact context for the "centaur" comment. Still, come on! You can't base a theory around one word, or I'll have have to start a crackpot about Edmure's skinchanging dick.

This is not about a word, but about Lyanna and Brandon's notable horseriding skills. It is the skills that gave rise to the theorising on their warging, not the wording.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

7 hours ago, Tralalala said:

That was later,at the start Rhaegar was the heir if Aerys died and assuming Rhaegar and Elia don't have anymore children Viserys becomes spare after Aegon.

I myself don't believe in any of these bullshit theories but i dislike both jon and dany...

I disagree with you on that,if he had enough soldiers in the red keep and imprisoned Aerys,who will exactly declare for Aerys and for what? There's no war declared there is no army and their purpose(Aerys) is already under lock and key,and if they threaten war he could call a great council or simply have Aerys transported by ship to dragonstone and that ship only needs to sink...

Point is Aerys was mad and Rhaegar was slow,if he had acted more quickly and decisively he wouldn't need to worry that varys is watching him or whatnot and could've saved a lot of trouble to a lot of people,instead he shames his wife and her family plus himself to boot, before every lord gathered at harenhall and for what?

Well regardless of what the smart move was, obviously Rhaegar did not go for the surprise move. It seems that his original plan was to get lords on his side and peacefully remove Aerys from power.

LOL "these bullshit theories"  

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

GRRM is a self-professed romantic, and he does write romances - only in his, people usually don't live happily ever after, if they live at all.

Agreed on "wolf blood" as a synonym of hot and rash temperament, but "centaur" refers to very good horsemanship, and that may be a hint at some level of warging skills that became manifest in a very inconspicuous way, being good with horses.

 

Robert would certainly want to if he could maintain the impression that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped, but there is no way he would marry her if he knew she went willingly. But even in the first scenario, I doubt that Robert would eventually put his infatuation above his pride as the head of House Baratheon and Lord Paramount of the Stormlands because a dishonoured ("soiled") Lyanna would be a huge blow to his status. 

Yes, he writes romances. But I think the idea of Rhaegar effectively sacrificing his kingdom for the sake of love is a greatly over-romanticized interpretation that many readers have in their minds, and one that disregards his prophecy-related motivations.

I think the "wolf-blood" comment on its own would mean nothing. But taken in context with the "centaur" comment as well as the fact that people with "blood of the dragon" are often dragon riders, I think it is also meant to clue us in to the fact that they were skinchangers. I certainly think "wolf-blood" would be an apt description of all the current Stark children, purely based on the fact that they all can warg direwolves, regardless of their temperament.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

This has nothing to do with attractivity, the point is the loss of status and thus, at least partly, of political value. The Lord Paramount's wife cannot be the subject of gossip and snickers behind her Lord husband's back, who would be seen as taking another man's leftovers, therefore Lyanna would have to marry a man of lower status, for whom the Stark blood would balance her publically known loss of virginity.

This is not about a word, but about Lyanna and Brandon's notable horseriding skills. It is the skills that gave rise to the theorising on their warging, not the wording.

LOL thank you for articulating both of these points better than I managed to

[John Doe]

Of course he was, but probably not because of politics.

Do you think his wife was okay with her being replaced as Rhaegar's child-bearer because of a prophecy, then killed because of the war Rhaegar provoked? With him not showing up for months, leaving her and the kids at Aerys's grace? And with him actively threatening her position as the future first lady and subsequently queen mother? I don't get how the same people who give Robert shit for being unfaithful to Cersei don't critizise Rhaegar at least as harshly. For all we know he was a dick.