How to better set up the 5 year gap

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

So I was waffling on elsewhere about how one of the reasons the famous 5 year gap famously didn't work is that it wasn't properly set up by the end of ASOS. And then I thought about it some more and tried to figure how each of the various characters could be placed in a better position to do nothing much for a few years, as if AFFC was just a transitional novel intending to set up the time jump. I thought I'd share what I came up with - also, throw in your own ideas, and we'll all have a good old-fashioned pointless argument on the internet.

So, to be clear, the premise is, leave the first three books as they are: what could we do with the characters in a hypothetical 4th novel that moves them into place for the time skip?

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Arya

Her plot is unchanged, except it truncates when she decides to commit to the House of Black and White and throws out all her old stuff - excepting Needle, of course.

Bran

His plot is much the same, except, being disappointed that he'll never walk again, he has a moment of reluctance about staying in the cave; his arc concludes with him deciding to stay and learn to be a magic tree.

Dany

Much the same again, with the climactic event being her marriage to Hizdahr. The bit with chaining up the dragons is moved up to just before this event.

Sansa

She witnesses Baelish's skilful neutering of his opponents, and the solidifying of his position as Warden of the East, Ruler of the Eyrie, etc. Very important: winter doesn't happen yet. I always though it was weird that, after a ten year summer, we only got a year or two of autumn: this can easily be stretched out, so that "Alayne" is hidden away at the Eyrie for much longer.

Tyrion

Having been assessed by Illyrio as worthy of joining the cause, he is dispatched to Daenerys, but by ship this time. Unfortunately the ship is raided by pirates and he's enslaved and bought by Yezzan or a Yezzan-type figure. He tries to escape but is caught, and Yezzan explains to him that he knows who he is, and there's a bounty on his head, and isn't it lucky that Yezzan is so rich he doesn't need a lordship in Westeros; he'd rather have the company of his beloved Tyrion.

Cersei

She is unable to prevent Mace assuming the Handship, and the Tyrells successfully outmaneouvre her at court, including by obtaining the allegiance of whichever Kettleblack brother it is that was in AFFC. They manage to limit her influence and thus stop her from doing anything particularly crazy. (Option B: they outsmart her and force her back to Casterly Rock.)

Jaime

His plot is much the same, except (1) he doesn't get scooped up by the BWB, and (2) he doesn't task Brienne with finding Sansa until after he's put down the end of the rebellion in the Riverlands: his actions at Riverrun bother him, he feels he hasn't quite lived up to the promise he made Catelyn, and so, Brienne, yada yada yada.

Balon Greyjoy

 

Alive: rumours of his death have been greatly exaggerated. (He did fall in the sea and is now weak and infirm, but hanging on to the kingship.) This leaves Victarion and a large army in place at Moat Cailin, which has implications...

Roose Bolton

Unable to take Moat Cailin without a knock-down drag-out fight, Roose instead convinces King's Landing not to return Manderly's son under any condition, thus ensuring his continued loyalty. He sails to White Harbour with a portion of his forces (and fake Arya, who marries Ramsay), intending to besiege the Moat from the north while he ferries the rest of his army round via sea. Unfortunately, he ends having to besiege the Dreadfort...

Stannis

...because Stannis takes it, and its two years of food, albeit losing a lot of men in the process.

Jon Snow

He doesn't send Sam and Aemon away at first. He rules the Night's Watch much more conservatively under Aemon's guidance, and does not offer Stannis any advice, hence Stannis taking the Dreadfort. Having better preserved the Watch's independence, and not done silly things like giving away the Watch's food to the wildlings or sending a suicide mission to Hardhome, Jon is in no danger of an Ides of Marsh. (Note: probably need to get Val out of the mix for now, since she's a link to Tormund and an opportunity for him to do pro-wildling things.) However, once Stannis is besieged at the Dreadfort, Aemon decides the heat is too close, and Jon makes the tough decision to send away him and Sam. Then he makes the tough decision to send away the rest of friends. Only then does the situation with Janos Slynt come to a head - ba-dum, tsss! And then, having more or less done everything right so far, he is informed by Mel that Mance is alive, and he sends him away to free Arya. And his last chapter is probably more or less the same as the one where he swears in some new Night's Watch recruits.

Sam

I could leave it at that: Sam is dispatched by Jon, we next see him in ADWD at the Citadel, he doesn't even need a chapter in hypothetical AFFC. But I think we could also give him a truncated journey at sea, hitting the two major points: Aemon's death, and the fat pink mast.

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So, with a couple of exceptions that we'll get to, that sets us up nicely for the following to happen during the few short years the story skips:

• Arya - ninja school
• Bran - wizard school
• Sansa - quiet life at the Eyrie
• Dany - Queen of Meereen
• Tyrion - Yezzan's favourite slave - works his way up from pet freak to teacher to Grand Vizier
• Cersei - quiet life, seething about being powerless, scheming about how to regain power
• Jaime - commanding the Kingsguard
• Stannis - back to rats and shoe leather, only this time it's colder
• Roose Bolton - besieging the Dreadfort, fighting the Ironborn, trying to hold on to the North
• Balon Greyjoy - infirm but alive
• Victarion, Aeron and Asha - prosecuting the war in the North, which is now a tedious slog with neither the North nor the Ironborn able to win, nor either willing to surrender
• Jon Snow - a considerably less controversial tenure as Lord Commander, especially since he's so far gotten away with breaking his vows re: Mance
• Aemon - dead
• Sam - maester school, possibly banging Gilly on the side
• Jorah - a drunken sellsword, probably winding up with the Golden Company
• Edric Dayne - rolling deep with the BWB
• Blackfish - doing whatever he's doing now
• Brienne - a long and fruitless search for Sansa (boy, imagine if we had to deal with that on-page!)
• Mance - hasn't been seen
• Selmy - serving Dany
• Baelish - running the Vale and making moves
• Varys - hasn't been seen
• The Martells - something else entirely
• Aegon and crew - waiting patiently, and a little perturbed that Dany has stayed in Meereen and gotten married.

You'll notice a couple of omissions... because I'm not sure what to do with Marwyn, Theon and Davos.

Davos has a few options. He could simply stay by Stannis's side, or he could go to White Harbour as in ADWD and get fake killed. However, with Manderly's son not having been returned to him, that means Davos would have to spend a few years in Manderly's secret comfy prison. Or perhaps he could be despatched to pick up Rickon anyway - but why would that take five years?

With Marwyn I have absolutely no idea, since we've barely seen him in action anyway. Like with the Martell children, it's impossible to know what he could do without knowing where his story is going; but unlike with Quentyn and Arianne, I suspect Marwyn couldn't be simply written out of the story.

And as for Theon... it's tricky. Clearly his long-term arc requires him to go from Reek to Theon again, and being taken out from Ramsay's influence is key to that. But the way I've set it up, it looks like that period of deprogramming would be happening in the five year gap, which might not be any good. (I wonder how GRRM intended to have this one play out initially?) I suppose the best option is that he has some chapters in hypothetical AFFC: Ramsay brings him to White Harbour, Roose takes custody, they go through with the wedding at Winterfell - Roose has a slightly different motivation for going there now - I suppose he has to pretend he's too big for the Dreadfort now anyway and he's properly supplanted the Starks by taking their home - anyway, yada yada yada, Theon becomes his own man again on page. But does he still escape? And where does he go?

The other on-page option is for Theon to have remained at the Dreadfort when Stannis captured it, and thus being taken away from Ramsay's influence that way. But that would take away the particular effect that Winterfell has on him.

Anyway, that's enough typing. Chime in with your own thoughts if you wish.

[PCK]

Theon's arc only would have made more sense with a 5 year gap.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Just now, PCK said:

Theon's arc only would have made more sense with a 5 year gap.

How so?

[PCK]

Just now, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

How so?

All that torture. It really broke him that fast? He's only been captive what 6 months to a year? Either way, I don't think it would be much different, probably just take him longer to break out of Reek mode.

[Renly's Banana]

Pretty much agree with all of these takes, can't say I'd change much. I still think the story needs this 5 year gap, and I'm really disappointed he didn't go through with it. People like Arya, Brienne and Sam desperately needed this gap. Just look at Sam's whole journey down to Oldtown and tell me with a straight face that wasn't 99% filler. Or Brienne's bumbling around from town to town until she gets her face bitten off. Oh it was still enjoyable, don't get me wrong, but somewhat entertaining filler is still filler. It also helps characters like Cersei and Theon become more damaged/traumatized being stuck in their respective places. 

Incidentally, I think Dany's chaining of the dragons should have actually been moved to the end of Storm of Swords. You spend that whole book with her on a power trip as she moves from city to city, sacking places and freeing slaves. It ends with her becoming queen of Meereen and reaching the height of her power, but at the price of chaining her "children." That way her reason for having to stay is a bit more set up: she wants to learn how to rule, but also how to tame and control her dragons.   

[Good Guy Garlan]

I'm not sure if I get the premise of the thread mostly because I'm a bit baked right now. Basically this new transitional AFFC would be sorta like the actual AFFC/ADWD but with even less plot advancement? Like instead of Tyrion reaching Meereen, he gets captured by slavers. The end. Do I understand correctly? 

It so, it seems to me that the best place to set up the gap would actually be at the end of ASOS. Bran's storyline is the clearer example. Instead of having him go through all that travelogue to the Wall, trim that shit a bit more so you can include like the two chapters of the group arriving at the cave and meeting Brynden. 

Same for Sam. At the end of ASOS Jon tells him to grab Aemon and Gilly and gtfo of the Wall and to the Citadel. 

Etc, etc, etc. 

I think the biggest hurdles would be Stannis, the Boltons and the Ironborn but here's how to keep them busy for five years: 

- Stannis: After Mance's capture, the wildling horde splinters into different groups, led by Tormund, the Weeper, etc. Stannis is busy fending off their constant attacks, restoring the NW castles, and maybe even dealing with the crisis at Hardhome. 

- The Boltons: Ramsey meanwhile has been occupied besieging Moat Cailin and Torrhen's Square and torturing Theon. 

- The Ironborn: In this version Euron's taking his sweet time arriving at the Iron Islands after Balon's death. He's been busy accumulating wealth, finding magic horns, capturing warlocks, the usual. Meanwhile, Asha's been ruling the Iron Islands, maintaining Balon's invasion of the North and fighting the Damphair's constant preaching against a woman ruling. 

[Lord Lannister]

The five year gap would've made a lot more sense. In Feast/Dance virtually every major character is in a state of transition.

Arya: Instead of currently training to be a Faceless Man, she could actually be one and ready to move on.

Bran: Similarly, he could've learned much in how to master his greenseeing by now and is now ready to face his destiny.

Dany: The whole Mereenese knot could be untangled off screen, with Dany transitioning in five years later as a successful ruler who overcame a lot. Not to mention her dragons are grown now and ready to dance.

Sansa: Her time at the Vale, under Littlefinger's tutelage was productive and she emerges ready to play the game in her own right, possibly married to Sweetrobin or Harry the Heir.

Tyrion: Instead of spending an entire novel feeling sorry for himself and traveling, he could've been a slave for years, perhaps setting himself up as the head of the Second sons or he could already be an integral part of either Aegon or Dany's forces, having regained the will to live.

Cersei: Maintains a weak grasp on the Seven Kingdoms through Tommen, who is also growing up and growing even more infatuated with Margaery.

Jaime: No reason his Riverlands plot couldn't be resolved off screen or wait until the five year gap progresses. Five years is a long time to slowly become even more discontented with his relationship with Cersei.

The North: Upon arriving at the wall, there's no reason Stannis couldn't take years to raise an army capable of taking the North at the Wall, trying to win the support of the Northern houses and Iron Bank from Castle Black, Deepwood Motte or even White Harbor. Building from scratch can take a long time, and given both he and Roose have limited forces, it could be understandable that neither would want to commit to a decisive battle.

Sam: He's probably a full maester in his own right in five years.

Jon: We come to him in five years, secure in his role as Lord Commander, a man and not a boy. He turned down Stannis, and has been colonizing the wildlings in the Gift, with some success, much to the discontent of many of his Brothers.

While much of the 4th novel would be catching up and dedicated to backstory, much like the first really, the story would advance and the 5th everyone would be moving ahead full swing. You still could introduce the Ironborn and Dornish characters on different terms as well.

As things stand I just get the feeling the final two novels are going to be forced in their effort to tie up all the loose plot ends since we spent a full two novels on transition.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

2 hours ago, PCK said:

All that torture. It really broke him that fast? He's only been captive what 6 months to a year? Either way, I don't think it would be much different, probably just take him longer to break out of Reek mode.

Spoken like a man who's never been gang-raped by a bunch of sweaty medieval soldiers

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

50 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Basically this new transitional AFFC would be sorta like the actual AFFC/ADWD but with even less plot advancement?

Well, I wouldn't put it like that, that makes it sound bad

50 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

It so, it seems to me that the best place to set up the gap would actually be at the end of ASOS.

Well, yeah, but... I guess what I'm thinking is, at the point of ditching the gap, what else could GRRM have done to make it work? But at that point, he'd already published ASOS.

 

3 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

Incidentally, I think Dany's chaining of the dragons should have actually been moved to the end of Storm of Swords. You spend that whole book with her on a power trip as she moves from city to city, sacking places and freeing slaves. It ends with her becoming queen of Meereen and reaching the height of her power, but at the price of chaining her "children." That way her reason for having to stay is a bit more set up: she wants to learn how to rule, but also how to tame and control her dragons.   

Well, I have to disagree a little bit there. The chaining of the dragons isn't about learning to tame or control them, it's about rejecting them, and by extension, her mad, angry Targaryen nature. It only makes sense to put that at the end of a book if her arc has been about compromise and rejecting who she is etc, i.e. the one I laid out above. Then we meet her in ADWD, years down the line, thoroughly demoralised, and some plot contrivance pushes her to a choice and she chooses dragons (i.e. she flies away on a magically reappeared Drogon).

It's kind of a nadir for her. And as soon as it happens we're waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I'm tired and I'm not thinking straight.

I dunno, I don't think it'd work at the end of ASOS as ASOS stands, it's too triumphal, it'd muddy things.

[Nevets]

20 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

So I was waffling on elsewhere about how one of the reasons the famous 5 year gap famously didn't work is that it wasn't properly set up by the end of ASOS. And then I thought about it some more and tried to figure how each of the various characters could be placed in a better position to do nothing much for a few years, as if AFFC was just a transitional novel intending to set up the time jump. I thought I'd share what I came up with - also, throw in your own ideas, and we'll all have a good old-fashioned pointless argument on the internet.

So, to be clear, the premise is, leave the first three books as they are: what could we do with the characters in a hypothetical 4th novel that moves them into place for the time skip?

The 5-year gap works pretty well for many of the main characters' stories.  Arya, Sansa, Bran, Daenerys, Tyrion, Brienne, and Sam can either take time off or complete tasks that can be done offstage.  The big problem areas are with Jon, Stannis/Davos, Theon/Ramsay, and Cersei/Jaime.  Jon and Cersei's arcs could simply go slower, but the others are a problem.  My take on how a 4th book taking 5 years might deal with some of this.

Arya - Pretty much the same.  She would probably progress farther into training, but it would still be pretty dilatory.  An inability to shed her identity and to take orders would put her on thin ice with the FM by the end.  Events in the current preview chapter would lead to weither her expulsion, or a lateral transfer elsewhere (a courtesan perhaps).  I don't think GRRM ever had any intention of making her a Faceless Man.

Sansa - Spends the years under Littlefinger's tutelage, learning politics and exerting influence.  Under her influence, Sweetrobin becomes stronger and a possible rival to LF..  By the end, she is ready to become Sansa again and do stuff.

Daenerys  - Spends a few years trying to run Meereen and letting her dragons grow and get bigger.

Tyrion - Spends time either chilling in Pentos, or possibly with Aegon.  After 4 years or so, gets sent to Daenerys, with story we have in ADWD.

Bran - Spends time in cave learning magic stuff.  If possible, moving the trip to the cave to ASOS would be beneficial, and would give his story in SOS some needed juice.  Ends with his departure from the cave.

Sam - Spends 5 years learning to become a maester.,  The only important events of his trip were the visit to Braavos and Dareon's desertion (which dovetails with Arya); Aemon's death, and his becoming sexually involved with Gilly; all of which could be done in a chapter.

Brienne - Spends time looking for Sansa.  Five years is an awful long time for a search, but hey, if John Wayne and Jeffrey Hunter can spend 5 years looking for Natalie Wood in The Searchers, Brienne can spend it looking over a far larger geographic area.  Essentially, it could be handled through flashbacks, letters/visits, or something similar.

Now for the more difficult stories.

Jon - More or less similar, but taking longer.  He spends his time recruiting, sending out scouting parties, arranging food and other supplies, and generally acting as a LC.

Cersei - Pretty much the same, only it takes her a lot more time to wreck things in KL.

Jaime - Spends time between Riverlands and KL.  Not sure how he spends 5 years though.

Stannis/Davos and Theon/Ramsay - I have no idea on these.  I can't see Stannis standing still for 5 years, but can't imagine a campaign taking that long either.  And Ramsay's plot with FArya is unlikely to take that long either, so I am at a loss there, as well.

I do think that AFFC/ADWD would have been better if it taken a longer period than the 6-8 months that it does take.  while 5 years might be a bit much, 2-3 years would probably have been manageable a would have helped advance many of the stories and make the characters older than they are now.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

The 5-year gap works pretty well for many of the main characters' stories.  Arya, Sansa, Bran, Daenerys, Tyrion, Brienne, and Sam can either take time off or complete tasks that can be done offstage.  The big problem areas are with Jon, Stannis/Davos, Theon/Ramsay, and Cersei/Jaime.  Jon and Cersei's arcs could simply go slower, but the others are a problem.  My take on how a 4th book taking 5 years might deal with some of this.

You misunderstand me, I'm not saying the 4thbook would take 5 years, just that it would better place the charaters for a 5 year gap

[PCK]

Some of the gaps could have been filled in with these anthologies, instead of Targaryen history that tells rather than shows.

[thehandwipes]

On ‎4‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 9:57 PM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

So I was waffling on elsewhere about how one of the reasons the famous 5 year gap famously didn't work is that it wasn't properly set up by the end of ASOS. And then I thought about it some more and tried to figure how each of the various characters could be placed in a better position to do nothing much for a few years, as if AFFC was just a transitional novel intending to set up the time jump. I thought I'd share what I came up with - also, throw in your own ideas, and we'll all have a good old-fashioned pointless argument on the internet.

So, to be clear, the premise is, leave the first three books as they are: what could we do with the characters in a hypothetical 4th novel that moves them into place for the time skip?

Well that's the problem right there.  I understand not everyone likes the last two books but they introduce themes and storylines and characters which will clearly be important to the conclusion to the story.  Reducing them to a series of plot points that cut short their arcs in order to force a nothing filled five year gap would not make the story better and leave many characters out of place.

My understanding is that the problem GRRM had with the five year gap is that it forced him to rely too heavily on flashbacks.  The story would have remained largely the same but the structure would have been very different.  Worse, GRRM came to believe, and he's probably right. 

For many of the characters its easy to see how a five year gap could have worked quite well. 

Cersei rules poorly for five years without having an epic meltdown of poor decisions.  Five years of late payments irritate the Iron Bank, five years of Frey incompetence and Cersei paranoia leaves growing religious fervor, Riverrun still under siege, and the BWB growing in power and cruelty.  Arya could start with the Mercy chapter and AFFC could be rolled into her memories.  There would be great moments missing but as memories the story would have moved quicker and could have progressed farther.  Same with Sansa.  Start with the Tourney, AFFC becomes backstory.

Other characters would have been far more difficult.  Add to that multiple storylines taking place in a nonlinear structure.  It could have been an epic mess.

It might have worked if GRRM had trimmed the story enough to make it work.  But we can never know what that book might have looked like.  I love ADWD, and I like AFFC; I don't think a five year gap would have made them better.