andy_wan_kenobi

The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

243 posts in this topic

My brother recently proposed the following theory to me. I thought I'd run it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes.

There is a child by Rheagar and Lyanna, but it is not Jon Snow. Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara Dayne. Edrick Dayne is Rheagar and Lyanna's child and remains essentially aynomous. Jon serves as a final decoy to protect Lyanna's child. 

I recognize there are some flaws with this. The chief being Ned not naming Jon with his children, requiring vastly more co-conspirators than Jon being Lyanna's child, and needing a more devious brain than Ned's to conceive.

That said, opinions?

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Posted (edited)

What text is there from the books that supports this "theory." It seems more like a guess.

Edited by Ralphis Baratheon

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Edric Dayne is 11 while Jon is 14, that would mean that Edric is either lying about his age or his birth time traveled.

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1 hour ago, andy_wan_kenobi said:

My brother recently proposed the following theory to me. I thought I'd run it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes.

There is a child by Rheagar and Lyanna, but it is not Jon Snow. Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara Dayne. Edrick Dayne is Rheagar and Lyanna's child and remains essentially aynomous. Jon serves as a final decoy to protect Lyanna's child. 

I recognize there are some flaws with this. The chief being Ned not naming Jon with his children, requiring vastly more co-conspirators than Jon being Lyanna's child, and needing a more devious brain than Ned's to conceive.

That said, opinions?

Hi Andy,

Would you settle for a half salute?  :D

There's a youtube channel called "Order of the Green Hand" which you may find interesting.  They propose that Jon Snow is the child of Ned and Ashara.  They make a very good case for their theory.  In my opinion, the main argument that their critics use is the time line.  However, I am of the opinion that Mr. Martin wants to keep his fans in suspense and he keeps the time line intentionally vague.  Bottom line, the Order made a good case for their theory.  They presented credible arguments to support N+A = J.  I wish I could say the same for their Mance-Rhaegar theory  :(

Edric Dayne is not likely a son of R+L.  The age is wrong.  However, it is possible that he is older than he appears.  A better candidate for R + L = ? is young Griffin, the boy passing off as Aegon Targaryen.  It makes sense to me.

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If I had to come up with a crackpot about Edric Dayne's parentage is that he's the bastard of Ashara Dayne and Brandon. I think Brandon would've been likely to name his child Edric (or Ned, for short) after his dear brother Eddard. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

If I had to come up with a crackpot about Edric Dayne's parentage is that he's the bastard of Ashara Dayne and Brandon. I think Brandon would've been likely to name his child Edric (or Ned, for short) after his dear brother Eddard. 

 

Timeline doesn't add up. Brandon was already dead by the time Edric was born. 
I also don't really know when or where they would have had a chance to meet and fugg

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8 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Timeline doesn't add up. Brandon was already dead by the time Edric was born. 
I also don't really know when or where they would have had a chance to meet and fugg

You're right, but who says crackpottery is a logical art? 

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5 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Timeline doesn't add up. Brandon was already dead by the time Edric was born. 
I also don't really know when or where they would have had a chance to meet and fugg

Elia and Varys could have sneaked into Brandon's cell in King's Landing and..extracted a sample of Brandon Stark's semen put it on ice and sent it to Ashara. 

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5 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Elia and Varys could have sneaked into Brandon's cell in King's Landing and..extracted a sample of Brandon Stark's semen put it on ice and sent it to Ashara. 

Elia randomly being involved in that is hilarious. It's like you naturally expect Varys to handle stolen samples of semen on a daily basis, no big deal. But Elia pushes this into crackpot territory, I'm afraid. 

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1 minute ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Elia randomly being involved in that is hilarious. It's like you naturally expect Varys to handle stolen samples of semen on a daily basis, no big deal. But Elia pushes this into crackpot territory, I'm afraid. 

Yeah, I decided to pick a random Lady that I knew was for sure in King's Landing that had some connection to Ashara to go along with Varys. Maybe Varys could have accomplish it himself, he is a master of disguises and if I remember correctly he does have VERY soft hands. Plus in the dark a mouth is a mouth you know?

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5 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

There's a youtube channel called "Order of the Green Hand" which you may find interesting.  They propose that Jon Snow is the child of Ned and Ashara.  They make a very good case for their theory.  In my opinion, the main argument that their critics use is the time line.  However, I am of the opinion that Mr. Martin wants to keep his fans in suspense and he keeps the time line intentionally vague.  Bottom line, the Order made a good case for their theory.  They presented credible arguments to support N+A = J. 

They don't.  Another poster referred to their video quite recently and it's actually one of the weaker attempts. The timeline is not such a huge deal, either, it's the total and complete lack of reference to Ashara in Ned's PoV - come on, his big love and the mother of his child, who may have committed suicide, and he doesn't spare a single thought for her, not even a veiled one, like he does with Rhaegar and Lyanna? Not to mention that he dishonoured her by fathering a bastard on her, yet the Daynes and Barristan are not only cool with him but even respect him? Sorry, not convinced.

Besides, Ned Dayne, who is supposedly the most reliable source on N+A, says that Ned fathered Jon on Wylla, not Ashara- so either he's a reliable source and then there is no N+A=J, or he's not quite so reliable and then his statement of N+A is no proof of anything. Plus, his information about N+A comes from Allyria, who, as Berric Dondarrion's betrothed, cannot be much older than Ned Dayne himself, and hence also knows only from hearsay.

Bold words and bashing while not bothering to adress tons of inconsistencies don't make for a good theory, I'm afraid.

 

As for Edric's age, he is the heir of the Lord of Starfall and the future Lord. It would be both difficult and nonsensical to put an impostor into such an exposed and important position.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Elia and Varys could have sneaked into Brandon's cell in King's Landing and..extracted a sample of Brandon Stark's semen put it on ice and sent it to Ashara. 

I'm not so sure Rickard would have been too pleased with the goo from his son's sword, being smeared onto his own sword. :wacko:

Edited by Darkstream

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3 hours ago, Darkstream said:

I'm not so sure Rickard would have been too pleased with the goo from his son's sword, being smeared onto his own sword. :wacko:

Brandon would though, "goo on a sword is a beautiful thing" or something like that.

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

They don't.  Another poster referred to their video quite recently and it's actually one of the weaker attempts. The timeline is not such a huge deal, either, it's the total and complete lack of reference to Ashara in Ned's PoV - come on, his big love and the mother of his child, who may have committed suicide, and he doesn't spare a single thought for her, not even a veiled one, like he does with Rhaegar and Lyanna? Not to mention that he dishonoured her by fathering a bastard on her, yet the Daynes and Barristan are not only cool with him but even respect him? Sorry, not convinced.

Besides, Ned Dayne, who is supposedly the most reliable source on N+A, says that Ned fathered Jon on Wylla, not Ashara- so either he's a reliable source and then there is no N+A=J, or he's not quite so reliable and then his statement of N+A is no proof of anything. Plus, his information about N+A comes from Allyria, who, as Berric Dondarrion's betrothed, cannot be much older than Ned Dayne himself, and hence also knows only from hearsay.

Bold words and bashing while not bothering to adress tons of inconsistencies don't make for a good theory, I'm afraid.

 

As for Edric's age, he is the heir of the Lord of Starfall and the future Lord. It would be both difficult and nonsensical to put an impostor into such an exposed and important position.

^^ All of this.

Personally, I think R+L=Dany and Brandon+Ashara=Jon. I'm not sure about that, but I am 100% sure Edric Dayne is not Brandon Stark's son due to his age being several years too young ;) 

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I still believe that time between books is the sole culprit for these topics. We're inundated with suggestions that Jon resembles the matrilineal line of Starks. He has features similar to Arya and Lyanna, just not so much Ned and nothing of Catelyn. Plus, he's a warg. I don't think warging is a random trait. At least there's no suggestion or reason to believe it exists outside of the North or beyond the wall. It sort of nails Jon down as a Stark of sorts.

I can except theories where perhaps Rhaegar didn't father him. I can except that there may of been a baby switch. But you would need to address the fact that Jon is uncannily similar to other Starks/northmen/wildlings. 

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13 hours ago, andy_wan_kenobi said:

My brother recently proposed the following theory to me. I thought I'd run it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes.

There is a child by Rheagar and Lyanna, but it is not Jon Snow. Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara Dayne. Edrick Dayne is Rheagar and Lyanna's child and remains essentially aynomous. Jon serves as a final decoy to protect Lyanna's child. 

I recognize there are some flaws with this. The chief being Ned not naming Jon with his children, requiring vastly more co-conspirators than Jon being Lyanna's child, and needing a more devious brain than Ned's to conceive.

That said, opinions?

No way Edric Dayne is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son he is a nobody with 0 impact to the story. Dismissed theory

Eddard and Ashara's child is Jon and Rhaegar and Lyanna's child is Aegon.

 

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Personally, I think R+L=Dany and Brandon+Ashara=Jon. I'm not sure about that, but I am 100% sure Edric Dayne is not Brandon Stark's son due to his age being several years too young ;) 

Well, Jon is too young to be B+A, either :P Unless Ashara happened to be in KL while Brandon was imprisoned and sneaked into his cell, Jon would be too old to be passed off as younger than Robb (mind you, Ned claims that he dishonoured Cat by his infidelity while she was pregnant, i.e. after they married). Similar problem with Dany - you would have to shift her birthday because just prior the Sack when she was conceived if she was born on DS 9 months after the Sack, Rhaegar was nowhere around Lyanna.

1 hour ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I still believe that time between books is the sole culprit for these topics. We're inundated with suggestions that Jon resembles the matrilineal line of Starks. He has features similar to Arya and Lyanna, just not so much Ned and nothing of Catelyn. Plus, he's a warg. I don't think warging is a random trait. At least there's no suggestion or reason to believe it exists outside of the North or beyond the wall. It sort of nails Jon down as a Stark of sorts.

??? Ned thinks that Jon's face looks like a younger copy of his own, and Cat is also bothered by their resemblance. There is nothing pointing to Jon resembling Arya more than Ned, it is only stated repeatedly that they all have a long face, grey eyes and brown hair.

Edited by Ygrain

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9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Well, Jon is too young to be B+A, either :P Unless Ashara happened to be in KL while Brandon was imprisoned and sneaked into his cell, Jon would be too old to be passed off as younger than Robb (mind you, Ned claims that he dishonoured Cat by his infidelity while she was pregnant, i.e. after they married). Similar problem with Dany - you would have to shift her birthday because just prior the Sack when she was conceived if she was born on DS 9 months after the Sack, Rhaegar was nowhere around Lyanna.

This statement makes no sense. If Dany was the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then she was born at the TOJ, not on DS. Lyanna obviously never went to DS :P 

And I do think Ashara was in KL and probably snuck into his cell to conceive Jon, mainly because you are correct in pointing out that's basically the only way the timeline works if B+A=J is true.

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