andy_wan_kenobi

The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

242 posts in this topic

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Sounds like a nice option to me, just not what Ned himself says one should do to escape Robert... see above

Are you talking about what Ned says to Cersei here? About how she should flee to Essos? Because that's a completely different situation.

Robert wouldn't even know Dany existed. Why would Dany be safer with Ashara (in a place frequented by strangers much more than the Neck) than with Howland. You yourself said she doesn't have the right hair, so why?

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In Dany's very first chapter she describes Westeros:

Somewhere beyond the sunset, across the narrow sea, lay a land of green hills and flowered plains and great rushing rivers, where towers of dark stones rose amidstmagnificent blue-grey mountains, and armored knights rode to battle beneath the banners of their lords. The Dothraki called the land Raesh Andahli, the land of the Andals. In the Free Cities, they talked of Westeros and the Sunset Kingdoms. Her brother had a simpler name. “Our land,” he called it. The words were like a prayer with him. If he said them enough, the gods were sure to hear. “Ours by blood rite, taken from us by treachery, but ours still, ours forever. You do not steal from the dragon, oh, no. The dragon remembers.”

And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. 

Then in her "wake the dragon" dream:

She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door. 

" . . . the dragon . . . "

smell home = flowered plains
great stone houses = towers of dark stones
green fields = green hills
arms = banners
 
The Dragon Remembers even if she does not
Remember who you are!
Red Door = Home = Westeros and no lemons in sight.
Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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8 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Are you talking about what Ned says to Cersei here? About how she should flee to Essos? Because that's a completely different situation.

Robert wouldn't even know Dany existed. Why would Dany be safer with Ashara (in a place frequented by strangers much more than the Neck) than with Howland. You yourself said she doesn't have the right hair, so why?

Wait the wife/fiancée of Robert had another dude's kids and he's pissed so Ned says they should flee to Essos... ya totally different? Rheagar and his children are even mentioned. 

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Can we stop with playing the victim here? I've called you no names, or attacked you personally. What I have done is strongly criticized the methods you have shown for supporting your ideas and the lack of evidence for them. One doesn't equal the other. You have ideas you think are valid, so support them with the evidence that changed your mind.

What I see in the above is only further proof you start from a preconceived idea and move to suppositions with no evidence to support them. So, when you say, "I think the evidence points to Brandon being Jon's father" without providing that evidence it is just a further example of how you reach the conclusion before looking at the evidence. Or when you state "I think Dany was born at the TOJ" without showing what evidence makes you think so, again puts the cart before the horse. It is not condescending to point any of this out. Nor is it being an "asshole" to argue against such methods.

You repeatedly accuse me of doing things I am not doing, like "reaching conclusions before looking at the evidence". I did not start this thread, and I feel no need to take the time to write up a huge new post listing and analyzing the giant amount of evidence relevant to B+A=J and R+L=D. Just because I feel like posting a quick response in this thread, you accuse me of not basing my conclusions on evidence, which is super... duper... condescending. If I posted a new topic outlining these beliefs without backing it up with the evidence, then you would be totally right to criticize my "lack of evidence". But that's not the situation here, I'm just trying to throw my 2 cents into this thread, and some people including you are acting super rude about it.

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11 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Wait the wife/fiancée of Robert had another dude's kids and he's pissed so Ned says they should flee to Essos... ya totally different? Rheagar and his children are even mentioned. 

Except Robert knows that they exist! And he knows who they are, what they look like etc. If Ned gave Dany to Howland and told him to keep her in the Neck, Robert would never even know there was a Targaryen child to worry about! It's not like Robert was keeping track of every bastard born during the rebellion (he doesn't even keep track of his own). He doesn't know who's the mother of Ned's bastard, why would he ever find out or ask about the bastard of one of Ned's most minor bannermen? The situations are completely different. Dany would be safe with Howland, within Ned's own borders and not wandering around a foreign continent with only a half-mad child to protect her.

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5 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ned can't keep her because of the hair/eye color... even Ashara didn't have the hair. Robert had sworn to kill all the dragonspawn... same logic as to why he lies about Jon.

Ned could have taken her to the neck. He could also have passed her for his and Ashara's bastard. The other Daynes in the story have silver or blonde hair. I have a much lighter hair color than my parents. But the color runs in my father's side of the family. You don't have to look like a copy of your parents.

16 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don't think he trusted Dany to people he didn't know, and I don't think Darry posed her as anything. I don't think the old grey bear she remembers is Darry. And I think the real Darry and his loyal men probably met their end along with the old Sealord. Since then, Illyrio has been tracking Viserys and Dany around essos afraid of made up knives and begging (even though Illyrio is wealthy)... why not treat them like Young Griff and pamper the shit out of them?

So did he trust Dany to people he knew? If he would make that decision, he would have to know them well. Who were those people and how did he get to know them? 

So someone else than Darry decided to pose her as "Daenerys, daughter of Rhaella and Aerys". For what reason exactly? What's the point? 

Illyrio has a lot of personal interest in getting Aegon/fAegon on the throne. They wanted to make sure it would be Aegon who reqonqured the throne, not Viserys. That's why Dany and Viserys didn't get the same treatment. And if Aegon is fake, then they would have a even stronger reason to do this against Viserys and Daenerys.

19 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

There are a lot of moving pieces... I get it. But the tale we've been told is full of holes.

In Dany's memory maybe. There isn't any holes in Dany's official story. It makes sense.

21 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But as to Ned, exile is actually what he advises to someone running from Robert:

Cersei and her children isn't equal to his beloved sister's child in Ned's mind. Ned didn't care what happened to Cersei. Why would he send a child half a world away, were he had no way of knowing if it was safe or no way of protecting it if needed? He did promise Lyanna something, and I doubt it was to send her child away as far as he could. If he promised her to protect the child, sending her away would make him a lousy brother.

 

 

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Cersei, Jaime and Tywin are all well-known, public figures (and, once again, Robert already knows that they exist and so knows to look for them). It's impossible for them to hide in Westeros. There's nowhere they can go where they won;t be sold out or discovered. Hence Essos. Where Robert has no armies and you can hire armies of sellswords to protect you. A tiny baby that nobody knows exists can be hidden very easily. Particularly if the place you hide her in is, once again, NEVER VISITED BY ANYONE!

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7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

ROFLMAO, that's beyond ridiculous.

Which passage do you mean, the BwB guy fancying lemons? That proves neither disproves anything - apparently, neither Braavos nor Riverlands are a natural climate for lemons, but that doesn't mean lemons wouldn't grow there with proper care. Where I live, figs or almonds don't grow naturally, but can be grown under certain circumstances.

Ramsay can become the heir to Dreadfort only after he kills Walda's children, as Roose kindly informs us:

If she pops out sons the way she pops in tarts, the Dreadfort will soon be overrun with Boltons. Ramsay will kill them all, of course. That’s for the best. I will not live long enough to see new sons to manhood, and boy lords are the bane of any House.

In other words, Fat Walda's sons would inherit before legitimised Ramsay.

Ned keeps thinking about the promise to Lyanna ever since his first chapter in AGOT when Jon was safe at Winterfell and Ned couldn't do anything else for him than he had already done, and it is way before Dany is discussed in his PoV for the first time. He also thinks about the price that he has paid to keep the promises to Lyanna - what price did he pay by speaking for Dany, arguing with a friend who had disappointed him and giving up Handship that he never wanted in the first place? - BTW, what lies had he been living for fourteen years?

Well, if people were afraid to make alliances because someone's bastard might be legitimized in the future, no alliances would be ever made because practically everyone has a bastard or two.

Besides, the Freys allied with Roose even though Roose was knows to have an adult bastard son, so do you have a quote of an alliance being ever prevented by someone having a bastard?

 

The war lasted for about a year, that covers something like 10-14 months. 16-17 months are not "about a year", that's a year and a half. A SSM pins the duration of the war as about a year, another pins Aegon's age as about a year when he was murdered. 

And what exactly prevents one from writing a character obsessing over a childhood memory, to find this memory incorrect?

 

You do, see above.

Was that SSM specifically including the TOJ as "part of the war"? Yes, we know the sack of KL was about 1 year into the war, but that doesn't mean the TOJ happened like the next day.

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28 minutes ago, GhostNymeria said:

Ned could have taken her to the neck. He could also have passed her for his and Ashara's bastard. The other Daynes in the story have silver or blonde hair. I have a much lighter hair color than my parents. But the color runs in my father's side of the family. You don't have to look like a copy of your parents.

So did he trust Dany to people he knew? If he would make that decision, he would have to know them well. Who were those people and how did he get to know them? 

So someone else than Darry decided to pose her as "Daenerys, daughter of Rhaella and Aerys". For what reason exactly? What's the point? 

Illyrio has a lot of personal interest in getting Aegon/fAegon on the throne. They wanted to make sure it would be Aegon who reqonqured the throne, not Viserys. That's why Dany and Viserys didn't get the same treatment. And if Aegon is fake, then they would have a even stronger reason to do this against Viserys and Daenerys.

In Dany's memory maybe. There isn't any holes in Dany's official story. It makes sense.

Cersei and her children isn't equal to his beloved sister's child in Ned's mind. Ned didn't care what happened to Cersei. Why would he send a child half a world away, were he had no way of knowing if it was safe or no way of protecting it if needed? He did promise Lyanna something, and I doubt it was to send her child away as far as he could. If he promised her to protect the child, sending her away would make him a lousy brother.

 

 

Ned "could" have done a lot of things, I don't dispute that... He could have taken the throne at the end of the rebellion, or taken the red keep when Robert dies...

I'm just tying to use his own words to point out what I think he did.

My guess is that Dany's grey bear of a protector was the missing maester from Winterfell, Walys Flowers, but that is totally speculation.

Illyrio's interest in (f)Aegon, and Viserys interest in the throne both aline with not wanting a child of Rheagar around to muddy the claims to the Iron Throne.

The issue with Dany's story is that it does not match up with her own memories.

Cersei and her children are not exactly the same as a child of Rheagar... but there is a solid parallel there. 

I'm not going to stand judgement on Ned when I don't have all (or even half?) the facts... just trying to piece together a story that makes sense.\

Ok remember that "bitter cup" reference... and I said "a cup of ice"?

without doing a whole HotU breakdown... maybe I'll come back tomorrow... I just want to point out that at the end she asks:

What did they mean?
…(1)the shape of shadows (2)morrows not yet made… (3)drink from the cup of ice… (4)drink from the cup of fire (5)mother of dragons (1,2,3)child of three

She went through the following rooms on her way in:

1.       4 Servitors crawling/molesting a beautiful woman

2.       A iron crowned, wolf headed, king at a feast of corpses, looking at her with ‘mute appeal’ (I think most people think this is the Red wedding, but the only wolf noted as silent(mute) is ghost)

3.       The House with the red door and Ser Willem

4.       The Skulls of Dragons looking down on the Mad King (this is an assumption I guess, she doesn't recognize him, but logical)

5.       Rheagar looking down on ‘Aegon’, mentioning the PTwP and the Song of Ice and Fire

1. Pyat Pree (who crumbles into a wormlike creature)

2. The Splendid Hall of the Undying

3. The Heart Room

So the last 3 rooms are all versions of the warlocks/undying, but the rooms before seem to line up with the answers she receives...

What do you know, a cup of ice is the house with the red door. Her Stark Legacy I would propose.

The cup of fire, next room, is the Mad King, and dragon skulls. Her Targ legacy.

AND Rheagar looks at her, and the title of the series is said. (PtwP=Mother of Dragons?)

Anyway, gots to run but happy to come back, love the subject.

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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6 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Was that SSM specifically including the TOJ as "part of the war"? Yes, we know the sack of KL was about 1 year into the war, but that doesn't mean the TOJ happened like the next day.

Well, yeah, but the Sack and the subsequent surrender of the army at SE  are the end of the war. I may be mistaken as English is not my first language, but if you say 16-17 months into the war, doesn't it mean that the war lasted even longer than that?

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Well, yeah, but the Sack and the subsequent surrender of the army at SE  are the end of the war. I may be mistaken as English is not my first language, but if you say 16-17 months into the war, doesn't it mean that the war lasted even longer than that?

To be more correct then, I should say 16-17 months from the start of the war, since the war was technically over before the TOJ.

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10 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ned "could" have done a lot of things, I don't dispute that... He could have taken the throne at the end of the rebellion, or taken the red keep when Robert dies...

I'm just tying to use his own words to point out what I think he did.

My guess is that Dany's grey bear of a protector was the missing maester from Winterfell, Walys Flowers, but that is totally speculation.

Illyrio's interest in (f)Aegon, and Viserys interest in the throne both aline with not wanting a child of Rheagar around to muddy the claims to the Iron Throne.

Wait, Illyrio knew about her as well? So basically everyone around her knew, even people that wasn't involved in her upbringing? The people who were supposed to keep it a secret weren't doing a very good job at it then.

10 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Cersei and her children are not exactly the same as a child of Rheagar... but there is a solid parallel there. 

I'm not going to stand judgement on Ned when I don't have all (or even half?) the facts... just trying to piece together a story that makes sense.\

Ok remember that "bitter cup" reference... and I said "a cup of ice"?

No, Cersei are not the same at all. Ned hates her. In that conversation he accuse her of murdering Jon Arryn, and Cersei admits it was her and Jaime who pushed Bran. He has no emotional interest in her safety. 

As for the bitter cup/cup of ice parallel, yeah I guess that parallel could work. But there are other bitter/sweet "cups" references:

Quote
That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me." "Perhaps not," Catelyn said, "but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not." - Catelyn II, AGOT
Quote
Yes." He covered her with silk, though she was burning. "Sleep and grow strong again, Khaleesi. Come back to us." And then Mirri Maz Duur was there, the maegi, tipping a cup against her lips. She tasted sour milk, and something else, something thick and bitter. Warm liquid ran down her chin. Somehow she swallowed. The tent grew dimmer, and sleep took her again. This time she did not dream. She floated, serene and at peace, on a black sea that knew no shore.
After a time—a night, a day, a year, she could not say—she woke again. The tent was dark, its silken walls flapping like wings when the wind gusted outside. This time Dany did not attempt to rise. "Irri," she called, "Jhiqui. Doreah." They were there at once. "My throat is dry," she said, "so dry," and they brought her water. It was warm and flat, yet Dany drank it eagerly, and sent Jhiqui for more. Irri dampened a soft cloth and stroked her brow. "I have been sick," Dany said. The Dothraki girl nodded. "How long?" The cloth was soothing, but Irri seemed so sad, it frightened her. "Long," she whispered. When Jhiqui returned with more water, Mirri Maz Duur came with her, eyes heavy from sleep. "Drink," she said, lifting Dany's head to the cup once more, but this time it was only wine. Sweet, sweet wine. Dany drank, and lay back, listening to the soft sound of her own breathing. She could feel the heaviness in her limbs, as sleep crept in to fill her up once more. "Bring me …" she murmured, her voice slurred and drowsy. "Bring … I want to hold …" - Daenerys IX, AGOT 
Quote

That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell. The hall rang with music and laughter, though the cold winds were rising outside. At first it was all wine and roast meat, and Theon was making japes and eyeing the serving girls and having himself a fine time . . . until he noticed that the room was growing darker. The music did not seem so jolly then; he heard discords and strange silences, and notes that hung in the air bleeding. Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead. - Theon V, ACOK

Quote

That night, alone in his tower cell with a blank parchment and a cup of wine, Tyrion found himself thinking of his wife. Not Sansa; his first wife, Tysha. The whore wife, not the wolf wife. Her love for him had been pretense, and yet he had believed, and found joy in that belief. Give me sweet lies, and keep your bitter truths. He drank his wine and thought of Shae. - Tyrion IX, ASOS

Quote
His hands were stiff from cold. He pulled off his gloves and flexed his fingers. Clydas returned to the hearth to stir the wine. He's sixty if he's a day. An old man. He only seemed young compared with Aemon. Short and round, he had the dim pink eyes of some nocturnal creature. A few white hairs clung to his scalp. When Clydas poured, Jon held the cup with both hands, sniffed the spices, swallowed. The warmth spread through his chest. He drank again, long and deep, to wash the taste of blood from his mouth. "The queen's men are saying that the King-Beyond-the-Wall died craven. That he cried for mercy and denied he was a king."
"He did. Lightbringer was brighter than I'd ever seen it. As bright as the sun." Jon raised his cup. "To Stannis Baratheon and his magic sword." The wine was bitter in his mouth. - Jon III, ADWD
Quote
Each night at supper the waif brought her a cup of milk and told her to drink it down. The drink had a queer, bitter taste that the blind girl soon learned to loathe. Even the faint smell that warned her what it was before it touched her tongue soon made her feel like retching, but she drained the cup all the same. "How long must I be blind?" she would ask. - The Blind Girl, ADWD

I've never reflected on all the sweet/bitter "cups" references before actually, but now you made me discover a new theory, which made me consider Dany as Lyanna's as a possibility. :)

 Ned's, Dany's and Arya's qoutes seem to be matching "bitter cup" with hardships and bad experiences.

But the biggest theme these qoutes actually seem to be referencing are lies/truths. Stannis not being the real Azor Ahai/PtwP, Tyrion's Sansa quote, Theon feasting with alive people at first (but they're really dead), Arya not really loosing her identity to become a faceless man, Mirri's betrayal to Dany (or Dany's "choice" to sacrife Rhaego, blaming Mirri and lying to herself). Ned's quote could then be connected to his "mask" he has presented all these years, while holding his deep secret close to him (Jon and maybe Dany then).

I must say, with these lies/truths  connections, Cersei's "bitter cup" qoute about exile becomes even more interesting. Especially when in the next sentence there's a "sweet cup" reference to Rhaegar's murdered children. Did GRRM foreshadow fAegon/Aegon here? And Jon (and possibly Dany)?

If this has a connection to Dany's "drink from the cup of ice...drink from the cup of fire", it would translate "Drink from the cup of lies, drink from the cup of truths". Will she discover lies and truths? About herself? This would actually support the idea that her childhood is a lie. Very interesting.

I do definitely still believe without a doubt that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. But now R+L=J&D became more likely in my mind. What do you make of all this?:)

Edited by GhostNymeria

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On 4/17/2017 at 2:26 PM, Ygrain said:

WUT?! I didn't get that far :D How do they propose she wound up there?

Wow maybe finish reading/watching something before dismissing it. What a novel concept...

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3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

To be more correct then, I should say 16-17 months from the start of the war, since the war was technically over before the TOJ.

Yeah. I still disgree with such a calculation but at least we're not in dispute over othe duration of the war.

38 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Wow maybe finish reading/watching something before dismissing it. What a novel concept...

After two videos of bullshit, why should I waste my time on more to say it's bullshit?

As we say, you won't be able to make a whip from shit, and if you will, you won't be able to crack.

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4 hours ago, GhostNymeria said:

Wait, Illyrio knew about her as well? So basically everyone around her knew, even people that wasn't involved in her upbringing? The people who were supposed to keep it a secret weren't doing a very good job at it then.

No, Cersei are not the same at all. Ned hates her. In that conversation he accuse her of murdering Jon Arryn, and Cersei admits it was her and Jaime who pushed Bran. He has no emotional interest in her safety. 

As for the bitter cup/cup of ice parallel, yeah I guess that parallel could work. But there are other bitter/sweet "cups" references:

I've never reflected on all the sweet/bitter "cups" references before actually, but now you made me discover a new theory, which made me consider Dany as Lyanna's as a possibility. :)

 Ned's, Dany's and Arya's qoutes seem to be matching "bitter cup" with hardships and bad experiences.

But the biggest theme these qoutes actually seem to be referencing are lies/truths. Stannis not being the real Azor Ahai/PtwP, Tyrion's Sansa quote, Theon feasting with alive people at first (but they're really dead), Arya not really loosing her identity to become a faceless man, Mirri's betrayal to Dany (or Dany's "choice" to sacrife Rhaego, blaming Mirri and lying to herself). Ned's quote could then be connected to his "mask" he has presented all these years, while holding his deep secret close to him (Jon and maybe Dany then).

I must say, with these lies/truths  connections, Cersei's "bitter cup" qoute about exile becomes even more interesting. Especially when in the next sentence there's a "sweet cup" reference to Rhaegar's murdered children. Did GRRM foreshadow fAegon/Aegon here? And Jon (and possibly Dany)?

If this has a connection to Dany's "drink from the cup of ice...drink from the cup of fire", it would translate "Drink from the cup of lies, drink from the cup of truths". Will she discover lies and truths? About herself? This would actually support the idea that her childhood is a lie. Very interesting.

I do definitely still believe without a doubt that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. But now R+L=J&D became more likely in my mind. What do you make of all this?:)

What was wrong with them, couldn’t they see? Inside the tent shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.”

Dany 8 Game

 

Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible.  A little girl ran barefoot towards a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.

Danny Clash 4

"You will drink," Dany said, cold as ice. "Empty the cup, or I will tell them to hold you down while Ser Jorah pours the whole cask down your throat."

Sorry! There are just so many good quotes... in fact I do think "sweet" is associated with lies and "bitter" with truth. Great Tyrion quote you used showing it!
 
If we enlarge that House of the Undying quote, there is actually more for you, but not sure how helpful interpreting visions and cryptic answers is, since I'm sure everyone and their secret long lost siblin will disagree on the meaning. But eh, why not:
“I have come for the gift of truth,” Dany said. “In the long hall, the things I saw… were they (5)true visions, or (4)lies? (3)Past things, or (2)things to come?  (1)What did they mean?
…the (1)shape of shadows (2)morrows not yet made… (3)drink from the cup of ice… (4)drink from the cup of fire (5)mother of dragons (6)child of three
“(6)Three?” She did not understand.
 
Dany asks 6 questions in addition to the six answers she got... it seems to me that besides the last "three?" for which she got he answer before she asked he question... the questions actually apply to the rooms in reverse. But I realize this is just me speculating...

Rooms:

1.       4 Servitors crawling/molesting a beautiful woman (what did they mean? The shape of shadows)

2.       A iron crowned, wolf headed, king at a feast of corpses, looking at her with ‘mute appeal’(things to come?  Morrows not yet made)

3.       The House with the red door and Ser Willem (past things? Drink from the cup of ice)

4.       The Skulls of Dragons looking down on the Mad King (this is an assumption, but logical) (lies? Drink from the cup of fire)

5.       Rheagar looking down on ‘Aegon’, mentioning the PTwP and the Song of Ice and Fire (true visions? Mother of dragons)

(Three? Child of three)

6.1       Pyat Pree (who crumbles into a wormlike creature)

6.2.      The Splendid Hall of the Undying 

6.3.      The Heart Room

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5 hours ago, GhostNymeria said:

Wait, Illyrio knew about her as well? So basically everyone around her knew, even people that wasn't involved in her upbringing? The people who were supposed to keep it a secret weren't doing a very good job at it then.

So, and admittedly I'm just trying to fill in blanks so it's speculation, I'm suggesting that whatever Ned's original intention or plan didn't work out. Dany's original guardians didn't make it till the series start. Instead she ended up in Illyrio's power at some point in her early childhood, likely when she left the house with the red door.

All Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known.

Dany 1 Game

Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him.*(Viserys)*

Dany 1 Game

Home? The word made her feel sad. Ser Jorah had his Bear Island, but what was home to her? A few tales, names recited as solemnly as the words of a prayer, the fading memory of a red door

Dany 6 Game

She did take a dozen flasks of scented oils, the perfume of her childhood; she had only to close her eyes and sniff them and she could see the big house with the red door once more.

Dany 6 Game

The narrow sea was often stormy, and Dany had crossed it half a hundred times as a girl, running from one Free City to the next half a step ahead of the Usurper's hired knives. She loved the sea. She liked the sharp salty smell of the air, and the vastness of horizons bounded only by a vault of azure sky above. It made her feel small, but free as well. She liked the dolphins that sometimes swam along beside Balerion, slicing through the waves like silvery spears, and the flying fish they glimpsed now and again. She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories. Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish."

Notice the Green Sail from her memory of arriving in Braavos (even though Viserys's story has her growing up there tangent leaving...). It turns out there are not a lot of green sails mentioned.

 

 

"Lysa Arryn's dead," Lord Godric said, "murdered by some singer. Lord Littlefinger rules the Vale now. Where are the pirates?" When Davos did not answer, he rapped his spoon against the table. "The Lyseni. Torrent spied their sails from Littlesister, and before him the Flints from Widow's Watch. Orange sails, and green, and pink. Salladhor Saan. Where is he?"

Then a chapter later...

It was not the sort of arrival that Davos Seaworth had anticipated when he'd set sail with Salla and his fleet. All this had seemed simpler then. The ravens had not brought King Stannis the allegiance of White Harbor, so His Grace would send an envoy to treat with Lord Manderly in person. As a show of strength, Davos would arrive aboard Salla's galleas Valyrian, with the rest of the Lysene fleet behind her. Every hull was striped: black and yellow, pink and blue, green and white, purple and gold. The Lyseni loved bright hues, and Salladhor Saan was the most colorful of all. Salladhor the Splendid, Davos thought, but the storms wrote an end to all of that.

This in conjunction with the seemingly random capture of one of Illyrio's ships by Saalador Saan does raise my suspicions... could they be in league? Or I'd even go so far as to say that they could be one and the same man! 

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11 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Dany doesn't ever remember Viserys in the House with the Red door...

Just who do you think is the other part of Daenerys's "they" in the following paragraphs?

Quote

That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.

They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper's hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one. (AGoT 25) bold emphasis added

Quite the contrary, Dany remembers they lived together, "they" meaning Viserys and her, in the big house with the red door, and she remembers them being thrown out of it, and then they having to travel from place  to the next to stay ahead of Robert's assassins. All with Viserys. After Ser Willem's death, all at Viserys's direction. I'm sorry, you're wrong.

11 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

we don't know the kindly grey old bear of a man she remembers was Darry...

Of course we do. We have other sources telling us it is Darry who escapes Dragonstone with Viserys and Dany shortly before Stannis arrives, and that they went to Braavos. We have nothing that suggest she did not go with them.

Quote

I built a fleet at Robert's command, took Dragonstone in his name. Did he take my hand and say, Well done, brother, whatever should I do without you? No, he blamed me for letting Willem Darry steal away Viserys and the babe. as if I could have stopped it. (ACoK 12-13) bold emphasis added

We also have Ned's famous dream in which he asks the Kingsguard about why he doesn't find them on Dragonstone with Viserys, and Queen Rhaella, AND, of course, that "good man and true" Ser Willem Darry.

Quote

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him." (AGoT 355) bold emphasis added

Even if the conversation is not a reflection of what the Kingsguard actually said to Ned, it is, at least, a reflection of what Ned believes to be true.

We also have the  marriage pact signed by both the Sealord of Braavos and Prince Oberyn Martell made in Braavos and signed by Ser Willem Darry on Viserys part. It beggars the imagination to believe the Sealord and the Red Viper signed this secret compact that could lead both of them to war with Robert with a man they don't know to be the real Ser Willem Darry.

What we have then is third party verification of Dany's memories about Darry. Placing her where she says she was, with the people she says she was, in the time she says she was. What we have in opposition to this evidence is the breathlessly delivered imagined conspiracy theories and trumped up "hints" manufactured out of smoke and mirrors which under any close inspection make absolutely no sense. The only real clue in all of these theories is the existence of the Lemon Tree in Braavos, and that I've already written about above.

As you know because you posted extensively in a previous thread on this topic which I started, I am not unfamiliar with many of the arguments made in support of the idea Dany isn't really Dany, so I won't bore you with going over all the reasons I think this whole idea absurd. Here are some links to my thinking from that thread, for reference sake.:

 

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2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

We also have the  marriage pact signed by both the Sealord of Braavos and Prince Oberyn Martell made in Braavos and signed by Ser Willem Darry on Viserys part. It beggars the imagination to believe the Sealord and the Red Viper signed this secret compact that could lead both of them to war with Robert with a man they don't know to be the real Ser Willem Darry.

/sarcastic font/ come on, the Darry who signed the pact was the real Darry, only it wasn't the Darry that fDany lived with /end of sarcastic font/

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2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Just who do you think is the other part of Daenerys's "they" in the following paragraphs?

Quite the contrary, Dany remembers they lived together, "they" meaning Viserys and her, in the big house with the red door, and she remembers them being thrown out of it, and then they having to travel from place  to the next to stay ahead of Robert's assassins. All with Viserys. After Ser Willem's death, all at Viserys's direction. I'm sorry, you're wrong.

Of course we do. We have other sources telling us it is Darry who escapes Dragonstone with Viserys and Dany shortly before Stannis arrives, and that they went to Braavos. We have nothing that suggest she did not go with them.

We also have Ned's famous dream in which he asks the Kingsguard about why he doesn't find them on Dragonstone with Viserys, and Queen Rhaella, AND, of course, that "good man and true" Ser Willem Darry.

Even if the conversation is not a reflection of what the Kingsguard actually said to Ned, it is, at least, a reflection of what Ned believes to be true.

We also have the  marriage pact signed by both the Sealord of Braavos and Prince Oberyn Martell made in Braavos and signed by Ser Willem Darry on Viserys part. It beggars the imagination to believe the Sealord and the Red Viper signed this secret compact that could lead both of them to war with Robert with a man they don't know to be the real Ser Willem Darry.

What we have then is third party verification of Dany's memories about Darry. Placing her where she says she was, with the people she says she was, in the time she says she was. What we have in opposition to this evidence is the breathlessly delivered imagined conspiracy theories and trumped up "hints" manufactured out of smoke and mirrors which under any close inspection make absolutely no sense. The only real clue in all of these theories is the existence of the Lemon Tree in Braavos, and that I've already written about above.

As you know because you posted extensively in a previous thread on this topic which I started, I am not unfamiliar with many of the arguments made in support of the idea Dany isn't really Dany, so I won't bore you with going over all the reasons I think this whole idea absurd. Here are some links to my thinking from that thread, for reference sake.:

 

It is only "they" not the parts of the story she's been told by Viserys and that don't make sense... aka the red house being in Braavos... Viserys doesn't appear in any of the actual memories of the house with the red door.

She doesn't ever have a memory of being thrown out, you are making the easy mistake of conflating the actual memories she has and the story she's been raised to believe...

I might be wrong, but I doubt it.

We have no other sources for the information despite your proposition there about Stannis... Darry was gone by the time he arrived, Viserys and maybe a babe with him along with the nursemaid and 4 loyal men. With Rhaella dead, and whatever Maester (if there was one on Dragonstone) missing, there is no evidence or reason to believe anyone saw the child before the escape and there are no other witnesses available. These are facts, we can speculate that it would or wouldn't be reasonable for others to have seen a baby, but there is no textual evidence for it.

Everyone is basing their knowledge of the "Stormborn" story on hearsay... 

Meanwhile, the Ned fever dream ToJ quote is about Viserys and Rhaella and takes place before the birth anyway so I don't know what your point is here...

The marriage pact in Braavos doesn't mention Dany... I don't know what the hell you are talking about Oberyn though, I don't think you understand the basic premise of the theory, I'm not suggesting it was a fake Darry that signed the pact...

I think you are dismissing the idea out of hand since these comments show you clearly don't even understand what is being proposed... the lemon tree is honestly a nice clue but not at all required for the theory. 

And yes, I've been putting this idea, or some variation, out there for many years... each and every book, story and chapter has simply reinforced my belief.

 

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