andy_wan_kenobi

The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

243 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

As you know because you posted extensively in a previous thread on this topic which I started, I am not unfamiliar with many of the arguments made in support of the idea Dany isn't really Dany, so I won't bore you with going over all the reasons I think this whole idea absurd. Here are some links to my thinking from that thread, for reference sake.:

 

Here is always the thing that cracks me up...

go back through this thread or other threads and look at the textual evidence (not your ideas about what happened or who knows what) and compare them to an R+L=J theory based on textual evidence...

it is incredibly comparable...

your agruement sounds just like if I said Jon has to be Ned's Bastard because look at all the character's that say so!

There is just as much wolf imagery in Danny's chapters as there is dragon stuff for John, if not more... and yes the mystery of a bastard's parentage is going to be a question, but guess what, so is an exiled orphan's parentage when she is constantly told to "remember who you are"... 

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"Hearsay" - so who spread the story? How did the rest of Westeros know about Rhaella giving birth and the huge storm that smashed the Targaryen fleet and Viserys and the newborn Dany being whisked away by Darry? I don't understand how Kevan Lannister knows her as Daenerys Stormborn if it's all a lie - whose lie?

And can someone clarify - earlier in the thread there is reference to Dany "running on grass with bare feet" (and how that couldn't possibly be Braavos) but IIRC those are two different memories/visions - one where she's running on bare feet towards the house with the red door, and the other the green grass of her home (and the stone castles and whatever else she uses to describe what I took to be Westeros, the "home" she's never seen but believes is her birthright).

Is there some instance where she's running on grass with bare feet?

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

<snip>... when she is constantly told to "remember who you are"... 

I don't understand why this is such a strong point in your argument. How can she remember that she has wolf blood, if she never knew this.

Shouldn't she be told to "learn or discover who you are?"

And I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I'm genuinely curious. I have always taken this for what it seems on the surface; Not to forget her true heritage, the blood of dragons - A part of her that she was trying to suppress, but has recently come to accept.

Edited by Darkstream

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One of the problems about all this targ/Stark mix up is that the houses have been around a long time and there is plenty of Targ/Stark blood flowing in every vein.

I DO think Tyrion is a dragon rider or dragon tamer but that does NOT mean that he is the son of Aerys.  How about Joanna his mother. Plenty of scope for a targ grandmother/great grandmother etc. there was probably a reason why Aerys was chasing her in the first place.

I am fairly convinced that BOTH warging ability AND dragon riding are passed down via the MOTHER or perhaps that the ability to skin change (or bond with dragons) is passed down via the mother but the father gets to decide the animals with which they bond. Another way is that the ability to skin change requires a recessive gene- double dose, so BOTH parents must carry this recessive gene.  A distant targ great grandmother of both Tywin and joanna would allow Tyrion to carry just this gene -linked almost certainly with the similar recessive gene for dwarfism (not the same but closely con-located).

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2 hours ago, Darkstream said:

I don't understand why this is such a strong point in your argument. How can she remember that she has wolf blood, if she never knew this.

Shouldn't she be told to "learn or discover who you are?"

And I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I'm genuinely curious. I have always taken this for what it seems on the surface; Not to forget her true heritage, the blood of dragons - A part of her that she was trying to suppress, but has recently come to accept.

This is a very good point and well said.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Darkstream said:

I don't understand why this is such a strong point in your argument. How can she remember that she has wolf blood, if she never knew this.

Shouldn't she be told to "learn or discover who you are?"

And I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I'm genuinely curious. I have always taken this for what it seems on the surface; Not to forget her true heritage, the blood of dragons - A part of her that she was trying to suppress, but has recently come to accept.

That is, of course, how I took it at first, just a metaphor...

But if she remember's the red door its almost like she's on the verge of remembering more, who she was... a name.

It's not that she never knew, it's that she was young and ended up being educated by an abusive Viserys as she ran around from place to place being told she was someone else.

She has nightmares about how abusive viserys was, and remembers his rage. One example, Viserys telling her she is a dragon not a fish, can be found in her one 'sailing into Braavos' memory I sited above.

She has been forced to obey, it's literally been beaten into her "who she is" and what to do.From the very beginning we see how abusive and controlling Viserys is, in fact Dany 1 starts:

Quote

Her brother held the gown up for her inspection. "This is beauty. Touch it. Go on. Caress the fabric."

Dany touched it. The cloth was so smooth that it seemed to run through her fingers like water. She could not remember ever wearing anything so soft. It frightened her. She pulled her hand away. "Is it really mine?"
"A gift from the Magister Illyrio," Viserys said, smiling. Her brother was in a high mood tonight. "The color will bring out the violet in your eyes. And you shall have gold as well, and jewels of all sorts. Illyrio has promised. Tonight you must look like a princess."
A princess, Dany thought. She had forgotten what that was like. Perhaps she had never really known. 

Her being told what to do, and she obeys... then at the end of the quote its like she is questioning her own past, questioning her own memory. And just a little bit further:

Quote

Dany listened to the talk in the streets, and she heard these things, but she knew better than to question her brother when he wove his webs of dream. His anger was a terrible thing when roused. Viserys called it "waking the dragon.

"wove his webs of dream"... of course at first I took this as just returning to Westeros and retaking the throne... but her first chapter is just full of this stuff, it's only after her wedding that she begins to stand up for herself.

Her first Chapter ends with:

 
Quote

 

"Smile," Viserys whispered nervously, his hand falling to the hilt of his sword. "And stand up straight. Let him see that you have breasts. Gods know, you have little enough as is."
Daenerys smiled, and stood up straight.

 

Dany doing as she is told.

 

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Yeah. I still disgree with such a calculation but at least we're not in dispute over othe duration of the war.

After two videos of bullshit, why should I waste my time on more to say it's bullshit?

As we say, you won't be able to make a whip from shit, and if you will, you won't be able to crack.

Quote

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

This is why I watch and read all these theory's. I certainly don't agree with all of them, parts I entertaining, parts I find interesting and parts I think they must have been dropping acid or something to make this. The point is what else are we here to do but discuss ideas and theories?

I mean if we had any signs of the next book being here soon we could just jump on the hype train and wait. Still that doesn't seem likely at least not yet so he keep rehashing the same ideas and trying to find different ideas or meanings.

I mean we could just conclude R+L=J and other believed canon/fandon theories for the millionth time and congratulate ours that we figured out the mystery. Yet until the books come out they aren't canon and proven. The mentality of some many "grey sheep" in the fandom is that we think we think we have worked certain things out so any ideas that contradict that are crackpot and bullshit.

Don't get me wrong is R+L=J is probably true and that's fine. It's also fine to come up with alternatives. I have seen various theorized use the same lines in the books to prove and disprove the same theories. Its just a matter of perspective.

So if people want to discuss crackpot and tinfoil let them. It isn't hurting you at and all looking at things at different perspective might make you see something in a new light. Or simply reconfirm what you think is true. Coming in and trying to make people feel like idiots for trying to discuss the series that we all enjoy doesn't reflect very well on you. 

I mean does it really matter that much if the whole of the internet doesn't agree with your fanon?

 

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10 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It is only "they" not the parts of the story she's been told by Viserys and that don't make sense... aka the red house being in Braavos... Viserys doesn't appear in any of the actual memories of the house with the red door.

Given that there are only a few lines of these memories, and how few fond memories she has of Viserys, I am not surprised.

10 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

She doesn't ever have a memory of being thrown out, you are making the easy mistake of conflating the actual memories she has and the story she's been raised to believe...

It seems you don't know your ASOIAF very well:

After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.

They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any
one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper’s hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one.

She apparently does have a memory of leaving the house along with Viserys, and travelling with him since the very point. There is nothing suggesting that she is only relaying what Viserys told her.

 

10 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I might be wrong, but I doubt it.

We have no other sources for the information despite your proposition there about Stannis... Darry was gone by the time he arrived, Viserys and maybe a babe with him along with the nursemaid and 4 loyal men. With Rhaella dead, and whatever Maester (if there was one on Dragonstone) missing, there is no evidence or reason to believe anyone saw the child before the escape and there are no other witnesses available. These are facts, we can speculate that it would or wouldn't be reasonable for others to have seen a baby, but there is no textual evidence for it.

If no-one ever saw a baby, then how did Stanis know there was one? Do you think that the garrison of DS wasn't interrogated after he took over, and that no-one noticed Rhaella's pregnancy during those 9 months? That there weren't maids bringing water and towels and the like during the delivery?

10 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The marriage pact in Braavos doesn't mention Dany... I don't know what the hell you are talking about Oberyn though, I don't think you understand the basic premise of the theory, I'm not suggesting it was a fake Darry that signed the pact...

It doesn't mention Quentyn, either, so does this suggest he isn't who he is?

 

1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

This is why I watch and read all these theory's. I certainly don't agree with all of them, parts I entertaining, parts I find interesting and parts I think they must have been dropping acid or something to make this. The point is what else are we here to do but discuss ideas and theories?

I mean if we had any signs of the next book being here soon we could just jump on the hype train and wait. Still that doesn't seem likely at least not yet so he keep rehashing the same ideas and trying to find different ideas or meanings.

I mean we could just conclude R+L=J and other believed canon/fandon theories for the millionth time and congratulate ours that we figured out the mystery. Yet until the books come out they aren't canon and proven. The mentality of some many "grey sheep" in the fandom is that we think we think we have worked certain things out so any ideas that contradict that are crackpot and bullshit.

Don't get me wrong is R+L=J is probably true and that's fine. It's also fine to come up with alternatives. I have seen various theorized use the same lines in the books to prove and disprove the same theories. Its just a matter of perspective.

So if people want to discuss crackpot and tinfoil let them. It isn't hurting you at and all looking at things at different perspective might make you see something in a new light. Or simply reconfirm what you think is true. Coming in and trying to make people feel like idiots for trying to discuss the series that we all enjoy doesn't reflect very well on you. 

I mean does it really matter that much if the whole of the internet doesn't agree with your fanon?

Why, thanks for the lecture. You might want to copy-paste it for the authors of the said videos, they are in sore need of one. Being condescending to others while producing videos full of mistakes, cherrypicking and ignorance, is really a way to go, and I sure as hell don't feel obliged to stick to courtesies when referring to them. Nor do I feel obliged to wait for a whole house to be constructed when the foundations are not laid well.

 

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27 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

I mean does it really matter that much if the whole of the internet doesn't agree with your fanon?

I learned long ago that it doesn't matter if other people agree, it matters that if one thinks differently, one speaks out. Group think and accepting it is not beneficial in any endeavor. So, yes, if people want to discuss R+L=D they have every right to do so. And I have the right to say where and why I disagree. That has nothing to do with some "fanon" I believe. I don't think there is a single right answer, even in fantasy novels, or perhaps, most especially in fantasy novels. I think being silent about your ideas is the only really wrong thing. Speak up if you think something is wrong, and say why you think it is wrong. Making mistakes and correcting them through testing ideas is how we learn.

This isn't a question of R+L=D vs some variant of R+L=J, and what team wins a debate. I could care less than nothing about such things. I have no "teams" here. I consistently argue that there are other theories that are certainly possible. Just don't tell me something is true when it's based on nothing but rank conjecture. I won't nod and say "oh, that's just like theories that are supported by sound evidence and logical thinking." There is no equivalence.

Now, there is a place for rank conjecture as well. Because something is crackpot does not mean it is not possible. We all have our favorite crackpot theories, and I've supported more than my share of them. But I don't say they have evidence to support them when they don't.

I have no problem with @LiveFirstDieLater or anyone else who is willing to engage in the debate and support their ideas. That is how it should be. I just don't have to either agree or remain silent.

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1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

This is why I watch and read all these theory's. I certainly don't agree with all of them, parts I entertaining, parts I find interesting and parts I think they must have been dropping acid or something to make this. The point is what else are we here to do but discuss ideas and theories?

I mean if we had any signs of the next book being here soon we could just jump on the hype train and wait. Still that doesn't seem likely at least not yet so he keep rehashing the same ideas and trying to find different ideas or meanings.

I mean we could just conclude R+L=J and other believed canon/fandon theories for the millionth time and congratulate ours that we figured out the mystery. Yet until the books come out they aren't canon and proven. The mentality of some many "grey sheep" in the fandom is that we think we think we have worked certain things out so any ideas that contradict that are crackpot and bullshit.

Don't get me wrong is R+L=J is probably true and that's fine. It's also fine to come up with alternatives. I have seen various theorized use the same lines in the books to prove and disprove the same theories. Its just a matter of perspective.

So if people want to discuss crackpot and tinfoil let them. It isn't hurting you at and all looking at things at different perspective might make you see something in a new light. Or simply reconfirm what you think is true. Coming in and trying to make people feel like idiots for trying to discuss the series that we all enjoy doesn't reflect very well on you. 

I mean does it really matter that much if the whole of the internet doesn't agree with your fanon?

 

Yup, what you said.  I'm not expecting anything to be published until shortly after the HBO show concludes.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to publish something that would contradict or spoil the production value and fan expectations for the show.  That would be bad mojo all around.  The issue is when to publish, not whether or not the book is finished.  In the meantime, we wait and discuss. 

 

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Posted (edited)

48 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Given that there are only a few lines of these memories, and how few fond memories she has of Viserys, I am not surprised.

It seems you don't know your ASOIAF very well:

After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.

They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any
one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper’s hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one.

She apparently does have a memory of leaving the house along with Viserys, and travelling with him since the very point. There is nothing suggesting that she is only relaying what Viserys told her.

 

If no-one ever saw a baby, then how did Stanis know there was one? Do you think that the garrison of DS wasn't interrogated after he took over, and that no-one noticed Rhaella's pregnancy during those 9 months? That there weren't maids bringing water and towels and the like during the delivery?

It doesn't mention Quentyn, either, so does this suggest he isn't who he is?

As a matter of fact I've read the quote, and you'll notice the difference, I hope, between that, the story I believe she is regurgitating and her actual memories. The difference is in the senses, the smells and visual descriptions that don't match the story. Things harped on in her memory: The smells of her childhood, the hot sweet smell of her sick old bear, the red door, the lemon tree. Being called Princess and my lady, interesting that this is what she remembers being called by her protector fondly later, yet at the start never felt like a princess before...

And that's not even getting into the fact that her little itinerary there doesn't explain a memory arriving in Braavos. It even ends with the bit about the usurper's knives (we know to be false) and her admitted doubt about it.

I do think there is reason to doubt this story as I've tried to show.

And I really struggle trying to understand why it's hard to believe a garrison on the verge of mutiny wouldn't see the baby, if a live one was born alive at all. It seems reasonable that Rhaella was really pregnant, that wouldn't be faked for months. But if she died in childbirth, Darry might well burn the body and flee in the dark of night. There isn't any reason to believe there were any witnesses left behind. We don't even know when the people in Westeros found out Dany's name, we only see things years later. The story about her birth may well have only trickled back from Essos later.

As for Quentyn, he wasn't just a frog now was he? Haha and while I'm sure there are theories about how he's alive or some secret Daario/Benjen love child, anything' possible I guess, I think your point misses the mark.

More relevant would be, I don't think the marriage pact signed by Oberyn and Darry and witnessed by the (now presumably dead) Sealord, that doesn't mention Quentyn, is any evidence that Quentyn was in Braavos at the time... that's the equivalent logic. And I'd go out on a limb and say he probably wasn't there.

A marriage pact that doesn't mention Dany, and is introduced into the story only after Viserys is dead is at the very least suspicious. The fact that everyone who signed it is also dead, doubly so.

And just because it's probably worth saying, I don't expect everyone to suddenly agree, lord knows I've been wrong before, but this is a forum that should encourage discussion. So thanks for the debate/critiques/ideas/laughs

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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Posted (edited)

55 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I have no problem with @LiveFirstDieLater or anyone else who is willing to engage in the debate and support their ideas. That is how it should be. I just don't have to either agree or remain silent.

I wouldn't be writing on this forum if I just wanted cheerleaders...

I enjoy the debate, and theories and our understanding of the story is only improved by testing our views and ideas against the mob.

but just for the record, I'm going to bat here for R+L= J then D

fire away, it's all in good fun 

:cheers: 

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not expecting anything to be published until shortly after the HBO show concludes.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to publish something that would contradict or spoil the production value and fan expectations for the show.  That would be bad mojo all around.

Well, look at it from GRRM's point of view. 

He has been warning the fans repeatedly, ever since the show got started, that the show and books are not the same universe, and will become increasingly different over time.   So whatever bad mojo the fans get in their heads as a result, it'll only be there because they didn't listen.

But I don't believe it ever occurred to him to shelve the books until such time as the show is done.  HBO will do their thing (however wacky and ill-advised it may often be), but that won't determine or alter his thing.  Not a speck, including the release dates of new books.  I think he'll publish when he's happy with the work, and as bound by contractual arrangements, just as he always has.

I also imagine he's well aware that unless he gives them TWOW first, the fans will believe, at the end of the show, that it has trotted out all the important revelations and plot developments... meaning GRRM has no big surprises in store for them.

If so, that concept can't please him.  I think he'll wisely use TWOW to prove it's flat-out wrong.  D&D gave it a good college effort, but in my strong opinion they simply guessed incorrectly on some major points he decided to hold back, and that's going to become evident.

As for the timing, yeah... we're all tired of waiting.  But ADWD took six years.  The wait for TWOW so far has been shorter than that.  So I still think we'll read it before the end of the show, and when it hits, I think it'll shatter quite a bit of fanon, to the chuckling glee of some and the wailing dismay of others. You, I think, will be among the gleeful.

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

I also imagine he's well aware that unless he gives them TWOW first, the fans will believe, at the end of the show, that it has trotted out all the important revelations and plot developments... meaning GRRM has no big surprises in store for them.

I'm not sure.  If he publishes on the heels of the show's conclusion; that would drive a lot of publicity without the anger and disappointment over contradicting fan expectations. Most people will be pining for more and hearing about the alternative storyline in the books.  The controversies will be big news.  Fans will want to know!  I don't think he needs to publish before the show concludes and it may be more advantageous to wait.

Once again, I really have no idea.    

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

As a matter of fact I've read the quote, and you'll notice the difference, I hope, between that, the story I believe she is regurgitating and her actual memories.

Her actual memories are those of Darry, the house with the red door, being kicked out of the house after his death and the travels in Essoss. The story that she is repeating because she doesn't remember are of the events preceding her birth and shortly after.

Quote

The difference is in the senses, the smells and visual descriptions that don't match the story.

I don't recall a description of every single house in Braavos and its rennovations in the past ten years that would exclude the existence of the house with the red door, nor do we have any other description of Willem Darry's disease that would contradict Dany's account.

Quote

Things harped on in her memory: The smells of her childhood, the hot sweet smell of her sick old bear, the red door, the lemon tree. Being called Princess and my lady, interesting that this is what she remembers being called by her protector fondly later, yet at the start never felt like a princess before...

A princess, Dany thought. She had forgotten what that was like. Perhaps she had never really known.

This one? And what exactly doesn't match - even in Darry's custody, she never had the life of a princess, and after his death even less so.

 

Quote

And that's not even getting into the fact that her little itinerary there doesn't explain a memory arriving in Braavos. It even ends with the bit about the usurper's knives (we know to be false) and her admitted doubt about it.

What exactly do you mean by "memory arriving in Braavos"? This one?

She did not remember Dragonstone either. They had run again, just before the Usurper’s brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs. It would not remain for long. The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast.

Here she very apparently relays what she had been told - unlike in the paragraph right after that, where she remembers Darry and how she cried when they had to leave the hosue with the red door.

Quote

A marriage pact that doesn't mention Dany, and is introduced into the story only after Viserys is dead is at the very least suspicious. The fact that everyone who signed it is also dead, doubly so.

Er, Viserys died quite early in the story, so a lot of things get introduced only afterwards. Plus, it doesn't really matter because he didn't know about the pact, anyway, so even if he lived, the pact would still come as a surprise - to only an extent, though, because the grounds for a Martell plan for revenge had already been laid. In the last Arianne chapter in AFFC, Doran tells her that he kept offering her totally unsuitable matches because she had been promised, that she was to be sent to Tyrosh to meet her betrothed but Mellario wouldn't have it. Doran planned to make Quentyn the heir to Dorne because she was to become Viserys's wife and Queen of Westeros. In other words, Doran's actions in all those past years are consistent with the existence of the pact - keeping Arianne free to marry Viserys.

BTW, why should it be suspicious that the pact about the marriage of the heir of House Targaryen (Vis) and Martell (Arianne) doesn't include Dany? Was Ned's alliance with Hoster Tully supposed to include Benjen or Edmure?

 

ETA: Come to think of it... the best lies are indeed with a grain of truth. When Illyrio tells Viserys that people in Westeros still secretly support the Targaryens, we all think it's merely feeding Viserys' fantasies, while it is, in fact, not entirely untrue.

Edited by Ygrain

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Her actual memories are those of Darry, the house with the red door, being kicked out of the house after his death and the travels in Essoss. The story that she is repeating because she doesn't remember are of the events preceding her birth and shortly after.

I don't recall a description of every single house in Braavos and its rennovations in the past ten years that would exclude the existence of the house with the red door, nor do we have any other description of Willem Darry's disease that would contradict Dany's account.

A princess, Dany thought. She had forgotten what that was like. Perhaps she had never really known.

This one? And what exactly doesn't match - even in Darry's custody, she never had the life of a princess, and after his death even less so.

"A princess", it's almost like she hasn't been called that since her vague memory of being called it in the house with the red door by her protector.

Quote

A princess, Dany thought. She had forgotten what that was like. Perhaps she had never really known.

And later we see how she remembers being called Princess in the house with the Red Door. She had forgotten what it was like! She doubts her own memories! This is how her character is introduced.

While we don't have any other descriptions of Willem Darry at all, besides "a good man and true". Our only point of comparison is Aemon, who was sick and dying in Braavos. And through Sam we get descriptions that seem the opposite of "hot, moist, sickly sweet odor".

Quote

 

What exactly do you mean by "memory arriving in Braavos"? This one?

She did not remember Dragonstone either. They had run again, just before the Usurper’s brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs. It would not remain for long. The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast.

Here she very apparently relays what she had been told - unlike in the paragraph right after that, where she remembers Darry and how she cried when they had to leave the hosue with the red door.

 

As you point out it is the paragraph after the "She did not remember Dragonstone either." that she continues the Viserys described story about leaving the house with the red door, and it's book-ended by her remarking, she's never seen one of the Usurper's knives (they didn't exist). 

To me, these little odd comments by her peppering the first chapter are screaming for me to doubt the story. Especially when thing's Viserys tells her turn out to be proven false later.

And even this:

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She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany. He called her "Little Princess" and sometimes "My Lady," and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.

They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper's hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one.

Which as you point out, is the best quote to try and prove Dany's Red door was in Braavos, uses "they" (admittedly it sure reads like Dany and Viserys at first) and Viserys is nowhere in the paragraph. In fact, if we read it literally the "they" here :

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That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door.

is Dany and Ser Willem.

Here:

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After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.

"they" is literally the servants. Maybe it is the servants who were put out, but that's not here no there and frankly is a weak argument and seems like nit-picking.

The last paragraph "they" is defined in the paragraph as her and her brother.

But the point remains, her physical descriptions (memories as opposed to story she's been told) never mention Viserys (she had her own room) and seem to conflict with his story at almost every opportunity.

Honestly though, the servants stealing the money is pretty suspicious too. So much for the 4 loyal men! Not to mention that they didn't take Rhaella's crown. Of course Viserys had that, so if Dany was robbed and cast out of the house with the red door, then shipped to Braavos to be "educated" by Viserys it still fits.

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Er, Viserys died quite early in the story, so a lot of things get introduced only afterwards. Plus, it doesn't really matter because he didn't know about the pact, anyway, so even if he lived, the pact would still come as a surprise - to only an extent, though, because the grounds for a Martell plan for revenge had already been laid. In the last Arianne chapter in AFFC, Doran tells her that he kept offering her totally unsuitable matches because she had been promised, that she was to be sent to Tyrosh to meet her betrothed but Mellario wouldn't have it. Doran planned to make Quentyn the heir to Dorne because she was to become Viserys's wife and Queen of Westeros. In other words, Doran's actions in all those past years are consistent with the existence of the pact - keeping Arianne free to marry Viserys.

BTW, why should it be suspicious that the pact about the marriage of the heir of House Targaryen (Vis) and Martell (Arianne) doesn't include Dany? Was Ned's alliance with Hoster Tully supposed to include Benjen or Edmure?

ETA: Come to think of it... the best lies are indeed with a grain of truth. When Illyrio tells Viserys that people in Westeros still secretly support the Targaryens, we all think it's merely feeding Viserys' fantasies, while it is, in fact, not entirely untrue.

I'm not suggesting the marriage pact was a fabrication. Just that there is no mention of Dany.

But the fact that Oberyn Martell, of all people, seemingly showed up and everyone else who signed it promptly died, screams suspicious to me. 

As you said, the marriage pact seems to have been signed, it's the circumstances surrounding it that I'm curious about. It does seem to be the only other event we can place near Dany being cast out of the House with the Red door.

For instance, I don't buy the "your mom didn't want you too"... because she wanted you close? Where is she again?

In fact, it doesn't seem like Illyrio would want the marriage fulfilled anyway since we know he had his own plans for an heir to the Seven Kingdoms, and sent Dany into the Dothraki Wastes never expecting her to return (and had no problem letting Viserys follow). Of course living Dragons changes everything.

ETA: Even better, I liked that Tyrion even found tapestries of all the Targ Kings in the basement of Darry... literally being hidden away.

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

"A princess", it's almost like she hasn't been called that since her vague memory of being called it in the house with the red door by her protector.

And later we see how she remembers being called Princess in the house with the Red Door. She had forgotten what it was like! She doubts her own memories! This is how her character is introduced.

???WUT??? She's not doubting her memories, she is contemplating how never in her life she actually looked the princess, or been treated as one, other than being called by Darry "Little Princess". She never had such an expensive dress, gold and jewels.

“A gift from the Magister Illyrio,” Viserys said, smiling. Her brother was in a high mood tonight. “The color will bring out the violet in your
eyes. And you shall have gold as well, and jewels of all sorts. Illyrio has promised. Tonight you must look like a princess.”

A princess, Dany thought. She had forgotten what that was like. Perhaps she had never really known.

 

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

While we don't have any other descriptions of Willem Darry at all, besides "a good man and true". Our only point of comparison is Aemon, who was sick and dying in Braavos. And through Sam we get descriptions that seem the opposite of "hot, moist, sickly sweet odor".

Sheesh, are you aware how many different diseases exist and how profoundly their symptoms vary? Aemon caught a cold and most likely developed pneumonia or something like that. Darry simply had something else, and basing an argument on two completely different men developing completely different symptoms in completely different kind of weather is, forgive me, beyond ridiculous.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

As you point out it is the paragraph after the "She did not remember Dragonstone either." that she continues the Viserys described story about leaving the house with the red door, and it's book-ended by her remarking, she's never seen one of the Usurper's knives (they didn't exist). 

To me, these little odd comments by her peppering the first chapter are screaming for me to doubt the story. Especially when thing's Viserys tells her turn out to be proven false later.

You're jumping from paragraph to paragraph without realizing how the information is structured. She doesn't and cannot remember events that happened before and soon after her birth, those she knows from Viserys - the Trident, the Sack, the Dragonstone and the flight to Braavos - but then she gives a chronological account of the things she does remember, of the stay with Darry and the life on the run after his death. Both paragraphs are clearly separated by one starting with "she didn't remember", the other with "she remembered". The nonexistent hired knives are not a proof of her unreliability but of Viserys' unstable psyche, which, however, does not mean that everything he ever told her was incorrect because a lot of information he gives her  fits with the accounts from other PoVs.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And even this:

Which as you point out, is the best quote to try and prove Dany's Red door was in Braavos, uses "they" (admittedly it sure reads like Dany and Viserys at first) and Viserys is nowhere in the paragraph. In fact, if we read it literally the "they" here :

is Dany and Ser Willem.

This is a linguistic falacy. A person does not need to be mentioned in a particular paragraph to be included in a pronoun reference. It's also a fail of logic: if Dany remembered living in the house with red door without Viserys, she would have to remember meeting him for the first time after that. Yet, this is not the case. Similarly, if Viserys lived for a couple of years without Dany, Varys's informants would have known that he suddenly acquired a sister. Yet, no-one comments on such a sudden appearance. 

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

 

Here: After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they (1) had left, and soon after they(2) had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them (3) forever.

"they" is literally the servants. Maybe it is the servants who were put out, but that's not here no there and frankly is a weak argument and seems like nit-picking.

Again a linguistic fail. "They (1) does not refer to servants (it doesn't even make sense: you cannot steal what you have left), and the conetxt doesn't provide any other persons except Dany and Viserys that it might refer to. The clarity of reference (and I hope you do not think that GRRM makes basic stylistic mistakes like unclear pronoun reference) then requires that (1), (2) and (3) all refer to the same subject, i.e. Dany and Viserys.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The last paragraph "they" is defined in the paragraph as her and her brother.

As is required by continuity of reference.

 

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But the point remains, her physical descriptions (memories as opposed to story she's been told) never mention Viserys (she had her own room) and seem to conflict with his story at almost every opportunity.

Pray, how exactly is a girl living in a rich household having her own room a proof of her brother's nonexistence?

Besides, that's what pronouns are for - Viserys is included without the need to mention his name.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Honestly though, the servants stealing the money is pretty suspicious too. So much for the 4 loyal men! Not to mention that they didn't take Rhaella's crown. Of course Viserys had that, so if Dany was robbed and cast out of the house with the red door, then shipped to Braavos to be "educated" by Viserys it still fits.

An unsupported leap of logic. It is nowhere stated that the servants are the same who left DS. 

They didn't take Rhaella's crowns nor other jewellery, and again, this is not an evidence to anything because 1) money and jewellery needn't be kept at the same place, and 2) unlike money, jewels can be identified and used for tracking the perpetrator, not to mention the trouble of a servant selling such items.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I'm not suggesting the marriage pact was a fabrication. Just that there is no mention of Dany.

Which doesn't mean a thing.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But the fact that Oberyn Martell, of all people, seemingly showed up and everyone else who signed it promptly died, screams suspicious to me. 

All men must die. The old and the sickly die sooner than others.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

As you said, the marriage pact seems to have been signed, it's the circumstances surrounding it that I'm curious about. It does seem to be the only other event we can place near Dany being cast out of the House with the Red door.

I'm sure we're going to hear more about the pact in TWOW, but this doesn't mean there is anything suspicious about it (other than being signed secretly, that is)

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

For instance, I don't buy the "your mom didn't want you too"... because she wanted you close? Where is she again?

I have no idea what you mean here.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

In fact, it doesn't seem like Illyrio would want the marriage fulfilled anyway since we know he had his own plans for an heir to the Seven Kingdoms, and sent Dany into the Dothraki Wastes never expecting her to return (and had no problem letting Viserys follow). Of course living Dragons changes everything.

IMO, what Illyrio wanted was Drogo's army, Vis and Dany were totally expendable and served only as means to get the said army for Aegon.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

ETA: Even better, I liked that Tyrion even found tapestries of all the Targ Kings in the basement of Darry... literally being hidden away.

? When was Tyrion at Darry?

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Posted (edited)

23 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It is only "they" not the parts of the story she's been told by Viserys and that don't make sense... aka the red house being in Braavos... Viserys doesn't appear in any of the actual memories of the house with the red door.

She doesn't ever have a memory of being thrown out, you are making the easy mistake of conflating the actual memories she has and the story she's been raised to believe...

I might be wrong, but I doubt it.

Ok, let's go over the quote again, but this time let me add a little more of it.

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Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by phones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father' throat with a golden sword.

She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart.They said that storm was terrible. The Targaryen fleet was smashed while it lay at anchor, and huge stone blocks were ripped from the parapets and sent hurtling into the wild waters of the narrow sea. Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her.

She did not remember Dragonstone either. They had run again, just before the Usurper's brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs. It would not remain for long. The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast. (AGoT 24-25)

Up to this point all of this narrative obviously relies on stories told to Dany by her brother Viserys, and her memory of those oft told stories. Everything here is either before Dany was born, or when she was only a newborn babe incapable of knowing the full scope of the events around her. That doesn't mean there isn't support for these events happening. Jaime's tale of seeing Rhaella going to the ship to King's Landing is evidence Flight from King's Landing happened. So too with Ned's dream account of his question to the Kingsguard about why they didn't go with Darry, Rhaella, and Viserys to Dragonstone. It is further verification the three of them are on Dragonstone. Stannis's account of being unable to prevent Darry escaping with Viserys and the babe just prior to his arrival supports this part of Dany's account and that of her mother's death. The teachings of the Citadel about Daenerys "Stormborn" support the account of the storm when Dany is born. And on and on there are reasons and evidence to believe all of this is credible. We can debate any of this if you want, but here is where Dany's story takes on a new character. After the above, Daenerys is talking about things she remembers, not just things she has been told.

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She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany. He  called her "Little Princess" and sometimes "My Lady," and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.

They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper's hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one. (AGoT 25) bold emphasis added.

Here all of this is based upon Dany's own memories of Ser Willem and the events after his death. Because she remembers Ser Willem and his death, we can be sure she is capable of having memories of these other events taking place after his death, unlike the events in the stories Viserys tells her of the time before her birth or the time in which she was a newborn babe at her wet nurse's breast. The one thing that is a constant in all those memories is another person being with her as exhibited by the pronoun "they." Dany tells us who that person is when she says, "Her brother would not allow it."There are really no other candidates for her "they" after the servants are dismissed and they are forced out of the big house with the red door.

When Robert tells Ned he can't get to Dany to kill her because of Illyrio's guards, he also says the following:

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I should have had them both killed years ago, when it was easy to get at them, but Jon was as bad as you. More fool I, I listened to him. (AGoT 94) bold emphasis added

This tells us that Robert had reports on how well guarded Viserys and Dany were early on in their exile. Clearly, Viserys had some reasons to believe there were spies watching them. Or, perhaps more correctly, he guessed right that Robert's spies were following them. And moreover, this verifies Viserys and Dany being together, just as she says in her memory.

So, summing up this part, it is clear that, contrary to your assertion, Dany has memories of Viserys from this time period. Those memories and Viserys's stories are corroborated by others including Robert, Stannis, Ned, the citadel's teaching, Jaime's accounts of the leaving of Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone, etc.

This is as opposed to fan's fanciful theories of Dany being born elsewhere and then brought in later to be raised in exile by Viserys. All of which has no textual evidence to support it.

 

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We have no other sources for the information despite your proposition there about Stannis... Darry was gone by the time he arrived, Viserys and maybe a babe with him along with the nursemaid and 4 loyal men. With Rhaella dead, and whatever Maester (if there was one on Dragonstone) missing, there is no evidence or reason to believe anyone saw the child before the escape and there are no other witnesses available. These are facts, we can speculate that it would or wouldn't be reasonable for others to have seen a baby, but there is no textual evidence for it.

Everyone is basing their knowledge of the "Stormborn" story on hearsay... 

Most of what we know in the series comes from hearsay evidence. That does not mean it isn't strong evidence that allows us to reach various conclusions. For instance, Catelyn tells us of the rumors Winterfell's soldiers bring back concerning Ned and the Lady Ashara. Not only is this evidence that should make one consider if Ashara is Jon's mother, but it also tells us something about when Jon appears with Ned. If Ned met a pregnant Ashara, or Ashara as a new mother with infant Jon, at King's Landing or Storm's End in the presence of Ned's army, there wouldn't be any discussion of whether she was or was not Jon's mother. The fact the men of the North bring home tales about Jon associated with the time in which Ned and his small party leave the Northern army and when Ned is said to have killed Ser Arthur and returns this sword to Starfall, tells us Jon first appears to the Northern troops following these events. Likely, when Ned comes back to Storm's End to meet his troops for the long march back to King's Landing and on to Winterfell. When we look at hearsay evidence, we have to weigh it for what it tells us, and what bias is involved, but that doesn't mean it doesn't tell us a lot.

So, when we look at Stannis statement about his taking of Dragonstone, we have to weigh the hearsay evidence he gathers from the formerly loyalist troops and servants we are told were ready to turn Viserys and Dany over to the rebels. We don't know the names or the positions of any of these individuals. We don't know if there was a maester among them. What we do know is that Robert is angry because the Targaryens are not captured. And, from his point of view, this is likely a even more important objective than the taking of Dragonstone itself. These are the people with the strongest claim to Robert's newly won throne.

If Stannis tried to do his duty on Dragonstone, and the Stannis we know puts duty before all else, then he had to find out and report back to Robert what happened to each of the Targaryens. That means questioning of the people who would know their fate. The servants at the birth of Daenerys. The servants dealing with Rhaella's body. The troops who let Ser Willem escape with Viserys and Dany. It likely also includes knowledge presented to the small council from Robert's spies in Braavos confirming that is where Targaryens and Ser Willem end up. All hearsay, but powerful evidence in support of Viserys's story.

That is true as well with the Citadel's teaching of Dany's birth. That the students know her as Daenerys Stormborn tells us this is not just a fabrication of Viserys or Dany's fertile imaginations. Viserys didn't just make up a tall tale to tell his sister as they sat in exile. Of interest is whether or not this teaching is based on the reports of a maester in service at Dragonstone, and who that maester might be.

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Meanwhile, the Ned fever dream ToJ quote is about Viserys and Rhaella and takes place before the birth anyway so I don't know what your point is here...

It's further evidence supporting that Viserys and Rhaella really go to Dragonstone. Others supporting variants of the theory Dany really isn't Dany call this into question. The idea is also that there is something wrong with the history Dany learns from Viserys, and things like Jaime's account talking of a morning departure from King's Landing and Viserys's tale of a midnight sail to Dragonstone - a more than one day journey - are somehow in contradiction and therefore his whole story is somehow suspect. It is a silly attempt, in my opinion, to throw up dust and create doubt where there isn't any. The pregnant Rhaella and Viserys set sail from King's Landing in the aftermath of the news of the defeat at the Trident and Rhaegar's death. Ned's dream shows he, at least, believes this to be simple fact.

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The marriage pact in Braavos doesn't mention Dany... I don't know what the hell you are talking about Oberyn though, I don't think you understand the basic premise of the theory, I'm not suggesting it was a fake Darry that signed the pact...

Yet you clearly suggest the Darry Dany knew was someone else. Yet we know that she also remembers Viserys from the same time. Has the great Dany impersonation begun before Ser Willem dies or after?

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I think you are dismissing the idea out of hand since these comments show you clearly don't even understand what is being proposed... the lemon tree is honestly a nice clue but not at all required for the theory. 

No, I understand the basics of the theory, although I note some variants of it. It's a pity about the lemon tree, because it is really the only hard clue associated with this theory, and it very, very likely means something entirely different from what the proponents of this idea think it does.

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And yes, I've been putting this idea, or some variation, out there for many years... each and every book, story and chapter has simply reinforced my belief.

Are you claiming this is your theory in that you thought of it first, or that you read it elsewhere and have adopted it as your working theory for some years?

Regardless, please let me know if I have your ideas on this theory right, or if I'm mixed up in my understanding of what you propose in any way.

Edited by SFDanny

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27 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

???WUT??? She's not doubting her memories, she is contemplating how never in her life she actually looked the princess, or been treated as one, other than being called by Darry "Little Princess". She never had such an expensive dress, gold and jewels.

Pray, how exactly is a girl living in a rich household having her own room a proof of her brother's nonexistence?

Besides, that's what pronouns are for - Viserys is included without the need to mention his name.

An unsupported leap of logic. It is nowhere stated that the servants are the same who left DS. 

They didn't take Rhaella's crowns nor other jewellery, and again, this is not an evidence to anything because 1) money and jewellery needn't be kept at the same place, and 2) unlike money, jewels can be identified and used for tracking the perpetrator, not to mention the trouble of a servant selling such items.

Ok so grammer aside, do you really not see the problem with what you are saying here... And say what you will about your fictional diagnosis, Braavos isn't a place you associate with hot sweet smells.

On the one hand you say she was never treated like a princess, on the other you are saying she lived in a rich place (so rich it has a lemon tree growing outside in a climate that clearly doesn't support such trees), she had servants etc. The Sealord of Braavos has a Palace where many like to make up justifications for the lemon tree being part of his garden or something... but ya nothing like the Princess life?

How does this make any sense...

And come on, jewelry is literally the best thing to steal. if you are worried about it being "tracked" wouldn't you just melt it down? And do the servants of the Sealord just loot and pillage at every rejeim change? seems odd... unless she wasn't staying with the Sealord, then we're back to the lemon tree... (this is setting aside the grass, 

Presumably the servants are not the same as the ones to leave dragonstone, I'm asking what happened to the four loyal men?

The story as a whole, the way it is given to us is either intentionally full of holes or just remarkably poorly thought out compared to the rest of the series, I'm gonna go with intentional until we get more books that say otherwise.

Also, per Tyrion in Darry:

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Piety and devotion. It was all he could do not to laugh. The walls had been bare on his first visit too. Tyrion had pointed out the squares of darker stone where tapestries had once hung. Ser Raymun could remove the hangings, but not the marks they'd left. Later, the Imp had slipped a handful of stags to one of Darry's serving men for the key to the cellar where the missing tapestries were hidden. He showed them to Jaime by the light of a candle, grinning; woven portraits of all the Targaryen kings, from the first Aegon to the second Aenys. "If I tell Robert, mayhaps he'll make me Lord of Darry," the dwarf said, chortling.

 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Ok, let's go over the quote again, but this time let me add a little more of it.

Up to this point all of this narrative obviously relies on stories told to Dany by her brother Viserys, and her memory of those oft told stories. Everything here is either before Dany was born, or when she was only a newborn babe incapable of knowing the full scope of the events around her. That doesn't mean there isn't support for these events happening. Jaime's tale of seeing Rhaella going to the ship to King's Landing is evidence Flight from King's Landing happened. So too with Ned's dream account of his question to the Kingsguard about why they didn't go with Darry, Rhaella, and Viserys to Dragonstone. It is further verification the three of them are on Dragonstone. Stannis's account of being unable to prevent Darry escaping with Viserys and the babe just prior to his arrival supports this part of Dany's account and that of her mother's death. The teachings of the Citadel about Daenerys "Stormborn" support the account of the storm when Dany is born. And on and on there are reasons and evidence to believe all of this is credible. We can debate any of this if you want, but here is where Dany's story takes on a new character. After the above, Daenerys is talking about things she remembers, not just things she has been told.

Here all of this is based upon Dany's own memories of Ser Willem and the events after his death. Because she remembers Ser Willem and his death, we can be sure she is capable of having memories of these other events taking place after his death, unlike the events in the stories Viserys tells her of the time before her birth or the time in which she was a newborn babe at her wet nurse's breast. The one thing that is a constant in all those memories is another person being with her as exhibited by the pronoun "they." Dany tells us who that person is when she says, "Her brother would not allow it."There are really no other candidates for her "they" after the servants are dismissed and they are forced out of the big house with the red door.

When Robert tells Ned he can't get to Dany to kill her because of Illyrio's guards, he also says the following:

This tells us that Robert had reports on how well guarded Viserys and Dany were early on in their exile. Clearly, Viserys had some reasons to believe there were spies watching them. Or, perhaps more correctly, he guessed right that Robert's spies were following them. And moreover, this verifies Viserys and Dany being together, just as she says in her memory.

So, summing up this part, it is clear that, contrary to your assertion, Dany has memories of Viserys from this time period. Those memories and Viserys's stories are corroborated by others including Robert, Stannis, Ned, the citadel's teaching, Jaime's accounts of the leaving of Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone, etc.

This is as opposed to fan's fanciful theories of Dany being born elsewhere and then brought in later to be raised in exile by Viserys. All of which has no textual evidence to support it.

 

Most of what we know in the series comes from hearsay evidence. That does not mean it isn't strong evidence that allows us to reach various conclusions. For instance, Catelyn tells us of the rumors Winterfell's soldiers bring back concerning Ned and the Lady Ashara. Not only is this evidence that should make one consider if Ashara is Jon's mother, but it also tells us something about when Jon appears with Ned. If Ned met a pregnant Ashara, or Ashara as a new mother with infant Jon, at King's Landing or Storm's End in the presence of Ned's army, there wouldn't be any discussion of whether she was or was not Jon's mother. The fact the men of the North bring home tales about Jon associated with the time in which Ned and his small party leave the Northern army and when Ned is said to have killed Ser Arthur and returns this sword to Starfall, tells us Jon first appears to the Northern troops following these events. Likely, when Ned comes back to Storm's End to meet his troops for the long march back to King's Landing and on to Winterfell. When we look at hearsay evidence, we have to weigh it for what it tells us, and what bias is involved, but that doesn't mean it doesn't tell us a lot.

So, when we look at Stannis statement about his taking of Dragonstone, we have to weigh the hearsay evidence he gathers from the formerly loyalist troops and servants we are told were ready to turn Viserys and Dany over to the rebels. We don't know the names or the positions of any of these individuals. We don't know if there was a maester among them. What we do know is that Robert is angry because the Targaryens are not captured. And, from his point of view, this is likely a even more important objective than the taking of Dragonstone itself. These are the people with the strongest claim to Robert's newly won throne.

If Stannis tried to do his duty on Dragonstone, and the Stannis we know puts duty before all else, then he had to find out and report back to Robert what happened to each of the Targaryens. That means questioning of the people who would know their fate. The servants at the birth of Daenerys. The servants dealing with Rhaella's body. The troops who let Ser Willem escape with Viserys and Dany. It likely also includes knowledge presented to the small council from Robert's spies in Braavos confirming that is where Targaryens and Ser Willem end up. All hearsay, but powerful evidence in support of Viserys's story.

That is true as well with the Citadel's teaching of Dany's birth. That the students know her as Daenerys Stormborn tells us this is not just a fabrication of Viserys or Dany's fertile imaginations. Viserys didn't just make up a tall tale to tell his sister as they sat in exile. Of interest is whether or not this teaching is based on the reports of a maester in service at Dragonstone, and who that maester might be.

It's further evidence supporting that Viserys and Rhaella really go to Dragonstone. Others supporting variants of the theory Dany really isn't Dany call this into question. The idea is also that there is something wrong with the history Dany learns from Viserys, and things like Jaime's account talking of a morning departure from King's Landing and Viserys's tale of a midnight sail to Dragonstone - a more than one day journey - are somehow in contradiction and therefore his whole story is somehow suspect. It is a silly attempt, in my opinion, to throw up dust and create doubt where there isn't any. The pregnant Rhaella and Viserys set sail from King's Landing in the aftermath of the news of the defeat at the Trident and Rhaegar's death. Ned's dream shows he, at least, believes this to be simple fact.

Yet you clearly suggest the Darry Dany knew was someone else. Yet we know that she also remembers Viserys from the same time. Has the great Dany impersonation begun before Ser Willem dies or after?

No, I understand the basics of the theory, although I note some variants of it. It's a pity about the lemon tree, because it is really the only hard clue associated with this theory, and it very, very likely means something entirely different from what the proponents of this idea think it does.

Are you claiming this is your theory in that you thought of it first, or that you read it elsewhere and have adopted it as your working theory for some years?

Regardless, please let me know if I have your ideas on this theory right, or if I'm mixed up in my understanding of what you propose in any way.

The lemon tree is nice, and clearly harped on, but isn't even necessary to make the connection. I'm certainly not the only one to propose this though I've been saying it for years even on this forum. I had suspicions about Jon, Dany and Tyrion early on, but the theories have clearly evolved with lots of input/support/debate with others.

Dragonstone doesn't seem to be a days sail from King's landing, but rulers I suppose... either way it isn't a midnight flight if you leave in the morning.

I could go through his point by point but most of it is addressed above. I'm not saying Viserys and Rhaella didn't go to dragonstone, or that she didnt die in childbirth, but we get no witnesses to the events there besides Viserys.

Stannis saying he was blamed for their escape doesn't indicate that anyone saw a baby who was taken with Darry and Viserys. 

I don't think Dany remember's Viserys in the House with the red door. It's ok we can disagree here. I think those early quotes are intentionlyy meant to be read a certain way, but there is no denying the whole chapter is filled with Dany's doubt.

You are quoting Robert saying Dany and Viserys were easy to get to, but that could be at any point over the last many years. 

Then you say they were well protected, I don't know what you are talking about here or how that fits with your quote? It doesn't make sense to me.

The "Stormborn" means nothing. It is how she is announced at the meeting with Drogo, and presumably how she had been announced during the rest of her travels... almost as if someone was carting her all over the continent, from city to city, showing her off to reinforce the truth of this story. 

And trusting the citadel teachings is frankly hysterical...

Anyway I'll be back around and try to do a better job explaining... but happy friday all

 

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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