andy_wan_kenobi

The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

235 posts in this topic

GRRM said Dany was born 8-9 months after Jon, which makes her much too young to have been born at the ToJ.

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7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

This statement makes no sense. If Dany was the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then she was born at the TOJ, not on DS. Lyanna obviously never went to DS :P 

 

5 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

GRRM said Dany was born 8-9 months after Jon, which makes her much too young to have been born at the ToJ.

The statement about the age difference holds regardless of the place of birth. Dany was conceived at the time when Rhaegar had no access to Lyanna because he was in KL, marching on the Trident, or dead already.

 

7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And I do think Ashara was in KL and probably snuck into his cell to conceive Jon, mainly because you are correct in pointing out that's basically the only way the timeline works if B+A=J is true.

If you wish to be contrarian just for the sake of it, your choice. I'm sure you can spin a fanfic why Ashara was in KL when she was supposed to be with Elia on DS.

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Posted (edited)

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 6:46 PM, andy_wan_kenobi said:

My brother recently proposed the following theory to me. I thought I'd run it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes.

There is a child by Rheagar and Lyanna, but it is not Jon Snow. Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara Dayne. Edrick Dayne is Rheagar and Lyanna's child and remains essentially aynomous. Jon serves as a final decoy to protect Lyanna's child. 

I recognize there are some flaws with this. The chief being Ned not naming Jon with his children, requiring vastly more co-conspirators than Jon being Lyanna's child, and needing a more devious brain than Ned's to conceive.

That said, opinions?

If not Jon , then Aegon , Wylla Manderly (close in age , does not resemble any of the Manderlys , Wylla has blonde hair ,while the Manderlys has brown  , dyed hair like Aegon  in order to hide identity maybe .  And  there is still that mysterious they who found Ned at the TOJ ) , or stillborn .

Ser Arthur Dayne ; Now it begins .

Eddard Stark ;No now it ends .

Captain Terrill ; Doin right ain't got no end .

Edited by BRANDON GREYSTARK

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21 hours ago, Ygrain said:

??? Ned thinks that Jon's face looks like a younger copy of his own, and Cat is also bothered by their resemblance. There is nothing pointing to Jon resembling Arya more than Ned, it is only stated repeatedly that they all have a long face, grey eyes and brown hair.

Ah. Yes. I remember Catelyn being aggravated at the fact Jon seemed more a son of Ned than any of her children. So you're right there.

I think you have to reverse engineer it though. 

Ned not listing Jon as one of his own. Yet Catelyn is told unequivocally that Jon is his blood.

His uncanny resemblance to Stark.

Tyrion's observations: seeing more of 'the North' in him than the others.

Mance's story of Bael where-by the Stark lineage is aided by the kidnap of a daughter of Winterfell by a warrior bard.

Rhaegar laying a crown of blue winter roses in Lyanna's lap.

Dany's vision of a blue winter rose (flowers loved by Lyanna, flowers that Bael uses as a metaphor for a daughter of WF) sprouting from a wall of ice

Of all the mysteries and machinations of asoiaf, I think this one has dragged on too long. If he's not Rhaegars, then why is it a secret? The realm isn't going to fall apart unless the two characters who sparked the rebellion were implicit in his birth. And overall, the symbolism is laid on too think to be a red herring. 

IMO, GRRM doesn't lead readers quite so far down the 'garden path' as this. He'll let readers make assumptions based on traditional story telling before subverting those expectations. But he doesn't point at something for five books then say, 'ha ha! Made you look!' I think he'd consider that cheap. I would.
 

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33 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Of all the mysteries and machinations of asoiaf, I think this one has dragged on too long. If he's not Rhaegars, then why is it a secret?

Bingo. The most serious secret of Ned impregnating some fisherman's daughter or a commonborn Wylla is such a huuuuge deal that would totally blow the readers off their feet. And Ashara, who is mentioned in connection with Ned at least half a dozen times, now that would be a mind-blowing surprise to reveal her as Jon's mother! - Ah, wait....

In the years of yore, we used to call this Apple Martini's test question: if Jon is anyone else's than R+L's, why the hell the secrecy?

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

In the years of yore, we used to call this Apple Martini's test question: if Jon is anyone else's than R+L's, why the hell the secrecy?

Good ol' AM. Do they not post at all anymore? I miss the way they'd curb these untethered theories. 

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On 4/16/2017 at 5:58 AM, Ygrain said:

Well, Jon is too young to be B+A, either :P Unless Ashara happened to be in KL while Brandon was imprisoned and sneaked into his cell, Jon would be too old to be passed off as younger than Robb (mind you, Ned claims that he dishonoured Cat by his infidelity while she was pregnant, i.e. after they married). Similar problem with Dany - you would have to shift her birthday because just prior the Sack when she was conceived if she was born on DS 9 months after the Sack, Rhaegar was nowhere around Lyanna.

 

18 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

This statement makes no sense. If Dany was the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then she was born at the TOJ, not on DS. Lyanna obviously never went to DS :P 

And I do think Ashara was in KL and probably snuck into his cell to conceive Jon, mainly because you are correct in pointing out that's basically the only way the timeline works if B+A=J is true.

Jon is conceived three to four months into the rebellion. Long after Brandon dies. Ashara could be his mother, but Brandon is not his father. Unless dead Brandon can still father children.

The idea that Daenerys is the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna is even more crackpot. Too many pages in these threads have been spent disproving this nonsense. 40 Thousand Skeletons, I'd suggest reading some of them. This "Order of the Greenhand" hasn't a clue what they are talking about.

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Hey it's always fun to speculate, but there are some major problems with N+A=J...

First as pointed out above, why the secrecy? If Ned's love for Ashara is so well rumored, why make such a point of keeping it a secret?

Two, why does Ned Dayne think Willa was the mom?

Why did Ashara disappear? If she died in childbirth/suicide then ok... but if you are suggesting she's Septa Lemore, why does that make any sense? She would have had a perfect excuse to raise a Targ looking kid in Westeros, but still abandoned her newborn (Jon) to take care of Aegon who was born years later... I don't even understand what the proposed explanation for this is.

Setting aside all the textual evidence for R+L=J... the references to Ned and Ashara are just not convincing me.

 The original critique of this idea... Cat must be an idiot (totally possible, she's pretty incompetent) to believe Jon is younger than Rob and Ashara's kid still doesn't really have an answer.

Also, to nitpick just a little thing that bothered me in the Greenhand video... they suggest Ashara was the "fisherman's daughter" seen with Ned fleeing north at the start of the rebellion... how many fishermen's daughters have purple eyes? The whole point of Ashara disappearing was to cover for a purple eyed kid because THEY STAND OUT!

 

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41 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Also, to nitpick just a little thing that bothered me in the Greenhand video... they suggest Ashara was the "fisherman's daughter" seen with Ned fleeing north at the start of the rebellion

WUT?! I didn't get that far :D How do they propose she wound up there?

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18 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

GRRM said Dany was born 8-9 months after Jon, which makes her much too young to have been born at the ToJ.

Well I might not agree with any of the Ned Ashara stuff... I don't think you can make this assumption. 

Rheagar was in King's Landing the night Chelsead was burned, and Dany was supposedly conceived.

Then seemingly no time passes as he rides to war, is killed, and Viserys and Rhaella flee to dragonstone. Besides the facts that Jaime's and Viserys memories of this seem to have some discrepancies... (Viserys tells of a nighttime flight, while Jaime, not an 8 year old kid at the time, remembers them sailing in the morning) Dany's being born nine months later is clearly a ballpark. 

What doesn't make sense is that Jon would be born at the tower of joy at the same time as the sack of kings landing (to establish the 8-9 month gap which even GRRM's quote was "closer to 8-9 months than a year"), which is the classic narrative.

Primarily because there is no reason for Kingsguard to be around if a kid wasn't born yet, there was already a legitamate/legitimized male heir, so a male baby had to have already been born for their duty to keep them there instead of protecting Aegon or Viserys after the Trident.

but Jon and Dany being 9ish months apart becomes much easier to accommodate if Dany wasn't born on Dragonstone as per her usual story...

So let me just try this other tinfoil hat on...

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On 4/16/2017 at 1:40 AM, Ygrain said:

They don't.  Another poster referred to their video quite recently and it's actually one of the weaker attempts. The timeline is not such a huge deal, either, it's the total and complete lack of reference to Ashara in Ned's PoV - come on, his big love and the mother of his child, who may have committed suicide, and he doesn't spare a single thought for her, not even a veiled one, like he does with Rhaegar and Lyanna? Not to mention that he dishonoured her by fathering a bastard on her, yet the Daynes and Barristan are not only cool with him but even respect him? Sorry, not convinced.

Besides, Ned Dayne, who is supposedly the most reliable source on N+A, says that Ned fathered Jon on Wylla, not Ashara- so either he's a reliable source and then there is no N+A=J, or he's not quite so reliable and then his statement of N+A is no proof of anything. Plus, his information about N+A comes from Allyria, who, as Berric Dondarrion's betrothed, cannot be much older than Ned Dayne himself, and hence also knows only from hearsay.

Bold words and bashing while not bothering to adress tons of inconsistencies don't make for a good theory, I'm afraid.

 

As for Edric's age, he is the heir of the Lord of Starfall and the future Lord. It would be both difficult and nonsensical to put an impostor into such an exposed and important position.

How important of a vassal is House Dayne?

Edited by Angel Eyes

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36 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

How important of a vassal is House Dayne?

Important enough to marry into the Targaryens. An old and respected house.

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Well I might not agree with any of the Ned Ashara stuff... I don't think you can make this assumption. 

It's not an assumption, they're the author's words. I'm not making a case for N+A because I'm not buying that they even had a fling, I'm just pointing out that Lyanna was long dead by the time Dany was born.

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33 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

It's not an assumption, they're the author's words. I'm not making a case for N+A because I'm not buying that they even had a fling, I'm just pointing out that Lyanna was long dead by the time Dany was born.

Depends on what month Lyanna died in and what month Daenerys is born.

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3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Hey it's always fun to speculate, but there are some major problems with N+A=J...

First as pointed out above, why the secrecy? If Ned's love for Ashara is so well rumored, why make such a point of keeping it a secret?

Two, why does Ned Dayne think Willa was the mom?

Why did Ashara disappear? If she died in childbirth/suicide then ok... but if you are suggesting she's Septa Lemore, why does that make any sense? She would have had a perfect excuse to raise a Targ looking kid in Westeros, but still abandoned her newborn (Jon) to take care of Aegon who was born years later... I don't even understand what the proposed explanation for this is.

Setting aside all the textual evidence for R+L=J... the references to Ned and Ashara are just not convincing me.

 The original critique of this idea... Cat must be an idiot (totally possible, she's pretty incompetent) to believe Jon is younger than Rob and Ashara's kid still doesn't really have an answer.

Also, to nitpick just a little thing that bothered me in the Greenhand video... they suggest Ashara was the "fisherman's daughter" seen with Ned fleeing north at the start of the rebellion... how many fishermen's daughters have purple eyes? The whole point of Ashara disappearing was to cover for a purple eyed kid because THEY STAND OUT!

 

Because Wylla was the scapegoat. If Jon is really Rhaegar and Lyanna's son (as shown in the TV series), Ned needed a name on hand to claim that she bore Jon Snow, if anyone came asking (i.e. Robert). Now Wylla is the only one we know existed after 283 A.C., since Edric Dayne was also nursed by her.

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37 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

It's not an assumption, they're the author's words. I'm not making a case for N+A because I'm not buying that they even had a fling, I'm just pointing out that Lyanna was long dead by the time Dany was born.

That is an assumption...

You are assuming Dany was born on Dragonstone during the storm and that Jon was born at the ToJ about the time of the sack... this is the classic timeline, yes, but it does require assumptions

For instance (as an example), if Jon was conceived at Harrenhall (By Leanna and Rhaegar) and Dany is his little sister conceived just before Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep (shortly before the trident) they could be closer to 8-9 months apart than a year and still both be R+L...

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7 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Because Wylla was the scapegoat. If Jon is really Rhaegar and Lyanna's son (as shown in the TV series), Ned needed a name on hand to claim that she bore Jon Snow, if anyone came asking (i.e. Robert). Now Wylla is the only one we know existed after 283 A.C., since Edric Dayne was also nursed by her.

If Ashara is Jon's mom there is no reason for a scape goat... why bother lying?

It still doesn't make sense why Ned Dayne would be wrong about the mom but we'd trust the rest of it... what is important is it shows that A wet nurse went north with Eddard and returned to Starfall in time to nurse Ned Dayne. But I think that's about it...

of course combined with the fisherman's daughter story it does sort of implicate that there were multiple babies in play during the rebellion that Ned was carting around.

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So why would Rhaegar conceive with his mother?

Wtf?

I do not understand nor have I ever meant to imply this...

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