andy_wan_kenobi

The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

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Because Ned didn't want to admit that it was Ashara. The memories of her are shameful for him. Also, do we know that there is a fisherman's daughter who bore a bastard son of Ned's? Ned doesn't sleep around unless it's someone he's particularly attached to, it's not his way.

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Well, Rhaegar mother Rhaella is Daenerys' mother, since they are siblings.

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On 4/15/2017 at 8:58 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Elia and Varys could have sneaked into Brandon's cell in King's Landing and..extracted a sample of Brandon Stark's semen put it on ice and sent it to Ashara. 

C'mon dude. We all know that bloodraven skinchanged brandon, rhaegar, ned and arthur dayne so they would all give up their goods and then  skinchanges a series of animals aht kept said goods alive from the clack cells to the tower of joy and then the sperm itself was skinchanged to properly impregnate Lyanna and ashara so that is how we get B/N/A/R+L/A=J+D+A+M 

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Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, Rhaegar mother Rhaella is Daenerys' mother, since they are siblings.

See there is your assumption

We know little and less about Danny's childhood besides the story that she is "stormborn". But she was shipped all over as a kid and her memories don't fit with the story she grew up in Braavos... search for red door and lemon trees and you'll find plenty of theories

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So who gave birth to Daenerys at Dragonstone?

Our only witnesses to her birth on dragonstone would be Darry and Viserys... we never meet Darry and Viserys isn't exactly trustworthy (if for no other reason than if Dany is Rheagar's kid she has a better claim than him to the throne, maybe why he treats her like shit)

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36 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Our only witnesses to her birth on dragonstone would be Darry and Viserys... we never meet Darry and Viserys isn't exactly trustworthy (if for no other reason than if Dany is Rheagar's kid she has a better claim than him to the throne, maybe why he treats her like shit)

Actually, hers was a royal birth (albeit one in exile).  Such births are not unattended.  There would have been many participants and witnesses, and given the Targaryen difficulties with births, I find it hard to imagine that they didn't display Daenerys to the assembled population of Dragonstone at the earliest convenience.  To not do so would invite whispers and rumors or a stillbirth.  So far, in world, we have gotten not so much as a whisper of a rumor that Daenerys is not who she appears to be.

Even if she were Rhaegar's child, she would not have a better claim.  If I recall correctly, with the Targaryens, boys always come before girls.  Plus Rhaegar was not married to Lyanna (a marriage without proof isn't a marriage), and it would be polygamous, and therefore questionable at best even if they were married.

I see no reason for there to have been a switch at DS, or for Darry or Viserys to have accepted one. An infant and toddler is a royal pain, as she would have to be constantly watched over and cared for.  If it's a stillbirth or she dies later, cry and move on.  While useful, she is hardly essential for anything.

Given all the groundwork that has been laid for R+L=J, I see no other reasonable conclusion, and have seen nothing to convince me otherwise.

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Posted (edited)

17 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The statement about the age difference holds regardless of the place of birth. Dany was conceived at the time when Rhaegar had no access to Lyanna because he was in KL, marching on the Trident, or dead already.

If you wish to be contrarian just for the sake of it, your choice. I'm sure you can spin a fanfic why Ashara was in KL when she was supposed to be with Elia on DS.

No need to be so condescending. I am not being "contrarian just for the sake of it". I actually think, based on the text and logic, that R+L=D and B+A=J. My best guess for Ashara being in KL would be so she could meet Brandon, but I'm not going to "spin a fanfic" about it. But that's the only way the timeline would work. Jon would be born about 9 months into the war, Dany would be born about 17 months into the war at TOJ, and Ned would have lied about Jon's age by about 3 months. 

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Bingo. The most serious secret of Ned impregnating some fisherman's daughter or a commonborn Wylla is such a huuuuge deal that would totally blow the readers off their feet. And Ashara, who is mentioned in connection with Ned at least half a dozen times, now that would be a mind-blowing surprise to reveal her as Jon's mother! - Ah, wait....

In the years of yore, we used to call this Apple Martini's test question: if Jon is anyone else's than R+L's, why the hell the secrecy?

To maintain the Stark-Tully alliance. If Jon is Brandon's son, then he would have a claim to WF, and the Stark-Tully alliance is dependent on Cat's children being the heirs to WF.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Jon is conceived three to four months into the rebellion. Long after Brandon dies. Ashara could be his mother, but Brandon is not his father. Unless dead Brandon can still father children.

The idea that Daenerys is the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna is even more crackpot. Too many pages in these threads have been spent disproving this nonsense. 40 Thousand Skeletons, I'd suggest reading some of them. This "Order of the Greenhand" hasn't a clue what they are talking about.

I have never listened to "Order of the Greenhand" but I am inclined to agree that they don't have a clue what they are talking about. I, on the other hand, have spent a lot of time reading R+L theories and thinking about the evidence, and I am well aware of all the problems with the various timelines proposed by people. For instance, if R+L=J and Dany is actually Dany, Ned basically had to take a jet pack to Storm's End and then the TOJ after the sack of KL. I do not appreciate people being condescending or suggesting I am ignorant just because I don't subscribe to R+L=J. I will now lighten the mood with smiles :D:P:);) 

Edited by 40 Thousand Skeletons

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Time for some logic what with all the babies and all.

First the children- as that the START if the book: thre are 17 = i am excluding Rickon and Bran and Arya is really only there for reference purpose

16   Aegon (real) - born roughly 9 months after Harrenhall

16  Ashara's still born daughter

15: Aegon (real or fake) but when we meet him he seems younger than Jon and Robb

14.9 Robb

14.8 Jon

14.8 Sam (he arrived at the Wall about a month or so after Jon and presumably took about twice as long on the journey,

13.8 -14.8 Gendry - he is 14 when we meet him roughly 4 months into the story

13.6-13.8-: Dany - she has her 14th birthday a few months into the story

12: Joffrey

10.9-11.8: Edrik Dayne - we meet him roughly 1 year into the story and he is 12

 11.2:  Sansa

10: Podrick

10: Myrcella

9: Arya

7: Bran

6: Tommen

6: Robert Arryn

Now as to possible parentage of each of these children

 

Mothers: We can  be absolutely sure of Arya, Sansa, Bran, Robb,  Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen, Robert and Sam

As for the others we did not see them born and their is no mother alive to claim them

Possible mothers:

Real Aegon: Elia, Ashara

Ashara's daughter: Elia or Ashara

Fake Aegon: Elia, Ashara, Sienna, Lysene whore

Jon: Ashara, Lyanna, Wylla, Fisherman's daughter, a TARG secret or real

Gendry: Almost anybody but could also be Lyanna or Ashara or even Cersai

Dany: Rhaenys or Ashara. Cannot be Lyanna as she was already dead

Edrik: wide choice but I think it might be Ashara (busy girl that one) Cannot be Lyanna as she was already dead

Podrick: Almost anyone, but someone in the Westerlands

 

Fathers:

we can never be absolutely sure of anyone's father but I think we can safely assume that we know:

Sansa, Bran, Arya are sired by Ned although it is conceivable (not likely) that Sansa had a father other than ned. However she did have a direwolf so let us assume she is Ned's child and there is no other stark around at the time of her conception.

Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen sired by Jaime

All of the others are subject to some doubt

Gendry: Robert is the father but mother unknown

Aegon: Possible baby swap so father could be Rhaegar or Aerys or Ned or Brandon or whoever else dishonoured Ashara

FAegon: illyrio Varys!!, (or the same as Aegon

Robb: clearly a Stark  (direwolf) so Ned or Brandon

Jon: Ned  or if Lyanna is mother then Rhaegar, Aerys, Robert, Mance, Arthur Dayne

Dany: Aerys, Rhaegar, Tywin, Ned, Arthur Dayne, Ser Bonnifer. Cannot be Brandon as he was already dead by the time she was conceived

Edrik: Either a Dayne heir or Ned. Cannot be Brandon as he was already dead by the time he was conceived

Podrick: Almost anyone

 

However my preferred idea (a bit of dreaming really)

Aegon - Ashara and Aerys (swapped with Elia's dead baby)

Robb - Cat and Brandon

Jon - Ashara and Ned (yes there is just enough time)

Gendry - Lyanna and ROBERT (this would explain Robetrt's collapse into drunkeness and guilt)

Dany - Rhaella and Arthur Dayne,

Edrik - Ashara and Ned -  yes once again the age gap is roughly the same as that of Robb and Sansa

Podrik - Tysha and Tyrion

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I have never listened to "Order of the Greenhand" but I am inclined to agree that they don't have a clue what they are talking about. I, on the other hand, have spent a lot of time reading R+L theories and thinking about the evidence, and I am well aware of all the problems with the various timelines proposed by people. For instance, if R+L=J and Dany is actually Dany, Ned basically had to take a jet pack to Storm's End and then the TOJ after the sack of KL. I do not appreciate people being condescending or suggesting I am ignorant just because I don't subscribe to R+L=J. I will now lighten the mood with smiles :D:P:);) 

My apologies, but your previous posts would not have led me to believe you had studied the various timelines and had spent much time thinking about the evidence. I'm glad to be corrected on that assumption. However, the bolded part of your post still gives me little confidence. The timing of Ned's arrival at Storm's End or at the Tower of Joy from King's Landing has absolutely nothing to do with the validity or lack thereof of R+L=J or Dany being Dany.

First, let me acknowledge a fact that many before me has come to see concerning Martin and traveling distances. The relationship of his travel times to real world travel times over the same distances is, at times, sketchy at best. So, we have Martin coming up with magical winds that blow Stannis's fleet to Eastwatch after the sacrifice Lord Florent at Dragonstone, and we have the unexplained speed in which Tyrion travels south on the Kingsroad to meet Catelyn at the Inn at the Crossroads. Martin acknowledges the problem and tells his readers to put away the rulers and read the story.

Having said that, there is nothing particularly troubling about the time it would take Ned to cover the distance to Storm's End and on to the tower. Most people I know who have studied this question put it at around six to seven weeks with a little more or less possible. Again that is trying to figure real world travel times over that distance. This may be on the fast side, but it isn't anywhere near needing a jet pack to do so. We can argue over the estimate if you like, but it is better, I think, to go with Martin's advice and put the ruler away.

The more important observation here is that when Ned arrives at the Tower of Joy really has nothing to do with the validity of R+L=J or Dany being Dany. You see whether or not Jon is at the Tower when Ned gets there, or how old Jon is when he does - assuming it is as the sequence outlined in the books tells us - really doesn't invalidate R+L=J  or many other theories. Many of us think it likely Jon is there when Ned gets there, but others have suggested that Ashara and Wylla take Jon to Starfall before Ned arrives. If they did, or someone else did, then Ned finds Jon later in his trip - that is all. It would make it less likely that Lyanna's death is due to childbirth complications the further away from Ned's arrival is after Jon's birth. Whatever the cause of Lyanna's death in the bed of blood in the Tower of Joy there is little reason to see the evidence that is available to us as indicating Lyanna and Rhaegar cannot be Jon's parents. Certainly, the speed Ned travels there from King's Landing doesn't say that.

Even more disconnected from Ned's travel time is Dany being Dany. We are told explicitly that Daenerys is the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen, and the sister to Rhaegar and Viserys. This is backed up by evidence from as varied sources as Stannis Baratheon, the teaching of the Citadel, the fact of the existence of a garrison of soldiers and sailors and servants at Dragonstone who would have witnessed Rhaella's pregnancy, and some who would have witnessed her death in childbirth, and many other clues pointing to the truth of Dany's identity.  And, in fact, no evidence that contradicts her universally accepted identity. Please do tell me how Ned's travel time then casts a doubt on who Daenerys is? It does not.

Dany, we are told, is born "nine moons" after the flight from King's Landing of Queen Rhaella and young Prince Viserys to Dragonstone following the news of Rhaegar's death and the defeat at the Trident. Ned's travels after he leaves King's Landing really has no effect on whether or not that is true. Unless, of course, one likes to propose evidence-free theories that contradict what the evidence in the books and from what the author tells us.

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5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

C'mon dude. We all know that bloodraven skinchanged brandon, rhaegar, ned and arthur dayne so they would all give up their goods and then  skinchanges a series of animals aht kept said goods alive from the clack cells to the tower of joy and then the sperm itself was skinchanged to properly impregnate Lyanna and ashara so that is how we get B/N/A/R+L/A=J+D+A+M 

I stand by my statement that no semen can leave the Black cells without Varys' say so. He knows magic exists so he takes precautions to not be effected by it. The Black cells AND semen smuggling are both Varys' domains so if any of it is leaving the Black cells it's being carried out by Varys' soft hands.

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23 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

My apologies, but your previous posts would not have led me to believe you had studied the various timelines and had spent much time thinking about the evidence. I'm glad to be corrected on that assumption. However, the bolded part of your post still gives me little confidence. The timing of Ned's arrival at Storm's End or at the Tower of Joy from King's Landing has absolutely nothing to do with the validity or lack thereof of R+L=J or Dany being Dany.

First, let me acknowledge a fact that many before me has come to see concerning Martin and traveling distances. The relationship of his travel times to real world travel times over the same distances is, at times, sketchy at best. So, we have Martin coming up with magical winds that blow Stannis's fleet to Eastwatch after the sacrifice Lord Florent at Dragonstone, and we have the unexplained speed in which Tyrion travels south on the Kingsroad to meet Catelyn at the Inn at the Crossroads. Martin acknowledges the problem and tells his readers to put away the rulers and read the story.

Having said that, there is nothing particularly troubling about the time it would take Ned to cover the distance to Storm's End and on to the tower. Most people I know who have studied this question put it at around six to seven weeks with a little more or less possible. Again that is trying to figure real world travel times over that distance. This may be on the fast side, but it isn't anywhere near needing a jet pack to do so. We can argue over the estimate if you like, but it is better, I think, to go with Martin's advice and put the ruler away.

The more important observation here is that when Ned arrives at the Tower of Joy really has nothing to do with the validity of R+L=J or Dany being Dany. You see whether or not Jon is at the Tower when Ned gets there, or how old Jon is when he does - assuming it is as the sequence outlined in the books tells us - really doesn't invalidate R+L=J  or many other theories. Many of us think it likely Jon is there when Ned gets there, but others have suggested that Ashara and Wylla take Jon to Starfall before Ned arrives. If they did, or someone else did, then Ned finds Jon later in his trip - that is all. It would make it less likely that Lyanna's death is due to childbirth complications the further away from Ned's arrival is after Jon's birth. Whatever the cause of Lyanna's death in the bed of blood in the Tower of Joy there is little reason to see the evidence that is available to us as indicating Lyanna and Rhaegar cannot be Jon's parents. Certainly, the speed Ned travels there from King's Landing doesn't say that.

Even more disconnected from Ned's travel time is Dany being Dany. We are told explicitly that Daenerys is the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen, and the sister to Rhaegar and Viserys. This is backed up by evidence from as varied sources as Stannis Baratheon, the teaching of the Citadel, the fact of the existence of a garrison of soldiers and sailors and servants at Dragonstone who would have witnessed Rhaella's pregnancy, and some who would have witnessed her death in childbirth, and many other clues pointing to the truth of Dany's identity.  And, in fact, no evidence that contradicts her universally accepted identity. Please do tell me how Ned's travel time then casts a doubt on who Daenerys is? It does not.

Dany, we are told, is born "nine moons" after the flight from King's Landing of Queen Rhaella and young Prince Viserys to Dragonstone following the news of Rhaegar's death and the defeat at the Trident. Ned's travels after he leaves King's Landing really has no effect on whether or not that is true. Unless, of course, one likes to propose evidence-free theories that contradict what the evidence in the books and from what the author tells us.

I'll sum up my timeline related thoughts to clarify. I accept the whole "putting away the ruler" concept. And I accept that GRRM is telling the truth about Jon being 8-9 months older than Dany. However, I don't think the Dany in our story, the one born 8-9 months after Jon, is necessarily the real Dany born on DS 8-9 months after the sack of KL.

I always figured that Lyanna died from giving birth, and most women who die from giving birth die fairly quickly. So I assume that Ned was at the TOJ during the birth or right after. Obviously this may not be true, but that's what I consider most likely. Assuming for a moment that B+A=J and R+L=D, if Jon was conceived at the latest possible moment by Brandon, that is when he was in the black cells, Jon would be born about 8 months into the war, and Dany would have been born at the TOJ about 17 months into the war according to that SSM. This would give Ned ample time to finish business at KL, lift the siege at Storm's End, find out Lyanna's location, and get to the TOJ.

Alternatively, if R+L=J and Dany=Dany as most people believe, then Jon would have been born essentially at the same time as the sack of KL, and either Lyanna would have had to survive a long time after giving birth, or Ned needed a jet pack. Obviously Lyanna could have died from an infection long after giving birth, but I think that would be a little odd for them to have just kept Lyanna trapped in a tower dying slowly with no maester to help. I certainly think it is possible that R+L=J, but I'm betting against it. And I am not betting against it because of the timeline. Both timelines are messy. I am betting against it because of all the other evidence in the story which I won't bother to argue about here.

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1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I stand by my statement that no semen can leave the Black cells without Varys' say so. He knows magic exists so he takes precautions to not be effected by it. The Black cells AND semen smuggling are both Varys' domains so if any of it is leaving the Black cells it's being carried out by Varys' soft hands.

Then varys was skinchanged by bloodraven 

 

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1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Then varys was skinchanged by bloodraven 

 

Or Varys was working with Bloodraven in this specific instance of said smuggling. All others instances only involve Varys. 

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Just now, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Or Varys was working with Bloodraven in this specific instance of said smuggling. All others instances only involve Varys. 

bloodraven lives in a tree beyond the wall.  There is no way to communicate that far. Skinchanging is the only possibility 

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6 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

To maintain the Stark-Tully alliance. If Jon is Brandon's son, then he would have a claim to WF, and the Stark-Tully alliance is dependent on Cat's children being the heirs to WF.

If Jon is Brandon's son, he is a bastard with a claim to nothing before all the trueborn relatives, and as Brandon's bastard he is in no different position than Ned's own supposed bastard, so what's the deal? It is not a terrible secret that cannot be shared even with people that Ned loves and trusts.

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

So does the fisherman's daughter exist at all?

Why wouldn't she? Ned did need to make the sea passage, after all. Only, she is a fisherman's daughter, not Ashara Dayne.

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24 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

bloodraven lives in a tree beyond the wall.  There is no way to communicate that far. Skinchanging is the only possibility 

Bloodraven knowing Varys is the person to talk to in regards to stolen semen could have skinchanged one of the other guards and explained the situation to Varys. 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I always figured that Lyanna died from giving birth, and Dany would have been born at the TOJ about 17 months into the war according to that SSM.

The war didn't last 17 months. Cat says that Ned was gone for a year, so where are you getting 17 months?

And if you think that George is being tricky because the "Dany" we are reading about isn't the real Dany, even though there is nothing in his story to suggest she is an imposter, sorry but that's just rubbish. If there was some huge mystery about her birth, George wouldn't flat out lie - he'd give some vague reply or his standard "you'll have to wait for the book".

Edited by maudisdottir

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27 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

The war didn't last 17 months. Cat says that Ned was gone for a year, so where are you getting 17 months?

And if you think that George is being tricky because the "Dany" we are reading about isn't the real Dany, even though there is nothing in his story to suggest she is an imposter, sorry but that's just rubbish. If there was some huge mystery about her birth, George wouldn't flat out lie - he'd give some vague reply or his standard "you'll have to wait for the book".

She didn't say he was gone for a year. She vaguely said she heard about his bastard in the first year of her marriage. Ned and Cat were probably married about 3 months into the war. A year later would be 15 months into the war. So 17 months would not be much later, and since these are all rough estimates anyways, the timeline can certainly fit with that statement from Cat, especially if she really meant "in the 14th month of her marriage" and just said "in the first year" because close enough. 

I'm not suggesting that George lied at all. When he said, "Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts." I am simply suggesting that he was referring to the Dany in our story and not the (probably dead) baby who was born on DS, if there was such a child (I think there probably was). And there is evidence to suggest Dany is an imposter, namely that her memories of her own childhood do not match up with what she thinks happened.

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