andy_wan_kenobi

The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

243 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

If Jon is Brandon's son, he is a bastard with a claim to nothing before all the trueborn relatives, and as Brandon's bastard he is in no different position than Ned's own supposed bastard, so what's the deal? It is not a terrible secret that cannot be shared even with people that Ned loves and trusts.

Why wouldn't she? Ned did need to make the sea passage, after all. Only, she is a fisherman's daughter, not Ashara Dayne.

The story is filled with bastards claiming the rights of trueborn sons. And maybe Brandon and Ashara somehow even got married, though obviously Ned could just lie and say they weren't. In Ned's mind, it may have not been worth the risk to Jon's life to share his identity with anyone, even Cat. Or he may have made a promise to Ashara to keep Jon's identity secret. The point is, many people say there is absolutely no legit reason why Ned would keep Jon's parentage a secret other than R+L=J, but right there is a perfectly legit reason. Jon is a threat to the Stark-Tully alliance merely by being alive.

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7 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And there is evidence to suggest Dany is an imposter, namely that her memories of her own childhood do not match up with what she thinks happened.

Not matching childhood memories usually mean that the person is misremembering, not that they are not who they are.

1 minute ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The story is filled with bastards claiming the rights of trueborn sons.

And? Brandon's bastard or Ned's bastard - why claim him as his own then if he was so very dangerous?

1 minute ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And maybe Brandon and Ashara somehow even got married, though obviously Ned could just lie and say they weren't.

Zero hint pointing towards such a marriage, and Brandon's affair with Barbrey directly contradicts this.

1 minute ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

In Ned's mind, it may have not been worth the risk to Jon's life to share his identity with anyone, even Cat.

Per your own logic, he put Jon in such danger himself by claiming him as his own bastard.

1 minute ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Or he may have made a promise to Ashara to keep Jon's identity secret.

And he never thinks about such a promise, while thinking multiple times about a promise to Lyanna, because...? Besides, making a promise not to reveal Jon's identity =/= a secret too dangerous to share.

1 minute ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The point is, many people say there is absolutely no legit reason why Ned would keep Jon's parentage a secret other than R+L=J, but right there is a perfectly legit reason. Jon is a threat to the Stark-Tully alliance merely by being alive.

There is no legit reason within the books. Existence of bastards does not threaten alliances, or do you have a quote to point otherwise? Did the existence of Ramsay, a very real threat because of his age and inclination, somehow prevent the Freys' alliance with Boltons?

And how is Jon a threat to this alliance fourteen years later? Come on. At the time of AGOT, Jon as Brandon's bastard is not a secret too dangerous to share with those one loves and trusts, and even if Ned was not sure about Cat, why lie to his BFF Robert? 

 

To make myself perfectly clear: Jon as B+A's bastard would be uncomfortable for Ned (and Cat) but not dangerous, and a dead betrothed's bastard is in no way more uncomfortable than your very husband's bastard. It is not a dangerous secret, though, and Ned is not a man who would lie to avoid discomfort.

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1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Bloodraven knowing Varys is the person to talk to in regards to stolen semen could have skinchanged one of the other guards and explained the situation to Varys. 

Too complex, but a prison guard explaining a semen transaction to Varys is totes ASOIAF

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In pure comedy maybe Varys was never cut and Ellia helped Varys give Ashara some of his man juice.  So it's actually Varys + Ashara= J/D/ everyone.

 Bottom line GRRM needs to write the next book. A lot of these conversations will disappear.  As for Dany too many people witnessed her birth and it is doubtful she isn't who she has been told.  Lemon trees and red doors are small part of the mystery.  I feel people just don't want to believe R+L=J because it doesn't follow their desire but majority of the evidence is there. From character development of Jon to Ned's thoughts, to Selmy's words all lead to R+L=J.   George has beat us over the head of "promise me Ned", "Jon is of my blood","hoping Jon and Rob grow up as brothers",trying to protect targaryan children.

Ned never thinks of Ashara he debates if Rhaegar would be hanging out in brothels basically comparing him to Robert as who would have loved his sister better.  The only promise we see from Ned is to Lyanna and Robert ironically on his death bed. He never has been shown to promise Ashara anything, any evidence is speculation.   

Once winds shows what the show has already showed we will change these arguments to something about Doran's plan or northern or southern ambitions. 

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4 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

She didn't say he was gone for a year. She vaguely said she heard about his bastard in the first year of her marriage. Ned and Cat were probably married about 3 months into the war. A year later would be 15 months into the war. So 17 months would not be much later, and since these are all rough estimates anyways, the timeline can certainly fit with that statement from Cat, especially if she really meant "in the 14th month of her marriage" and just said "in the first year" because close enough. 

 

Quote

It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast [...] When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

They had spent that year apart - not "that 17 months" or "more than a year" or "a year and a half". Within a year the war ended, Ned travelled to Storm's End, ToJ and then Starfall, and returned to Winterfell with baby Jon "and his wet nurse" in tow, all before he was reunited with Catelyn. (Jon can't be significantly older than Robb, or Catelyn would never believe that Ned "had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign.")

So where are you getting 17 months?

 

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2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

 

They had spent that year apart - not "that 17 months" or "more than a year" or "a year and a half". Within a year the war ended, Ned travelled to Storm's End, ToJ and then Starfall, and returned to Winterfell with baby Jon "and his wet nurse" in tow, all before he was reunited with Catelyn. (Jon can't be significantly older than Robb, or Catelyn would never believe that Ned "had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign.")

So where are you getting 17 months?

 

They were only married half way through the war... after the battle of the Bells at the Stoney Sept (the first identifiable event in 283.)

Rheagar had already left Kingslanding to meet/abduct Lyanna on the first day of 282.

A lot happened between without much that we can pinpoint a date of... battle of gulltown, summerhall, siege of storms end starts, and the battle of ashford...

so several months could easily have passed in the war before Ned and Cat get married.

17 months is conservative

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Just because I can't help bring some textual stuff into the conversation to mix up the timeline debate...

Dany's first chapter (GoT 3) is full of little comments that made me doubt the classic story of her birth on a re read... but just for the sake of arguement I picked out one paragraph:

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

Now it starts with a reminder that these are just Visery's stories.

Then, the "midnight flight" to dragonstone, but ends thinking of Jaime. Interestingly Jaime remembers the flight slightly differently (and his version is PoV).

"You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him." 
Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.
So not such a midnight flight...
There is so much more, but I'll leave with the fact that the first woman mentioned in Dany's tale, besides herself, is her mother... then the woman Rheagar loved and died for... then Elia.
She doesn't name her mother, she knows of the Rheagar "love" story (I don't think anyone thinks that this is about Elia), and seems to get all her information from Viserys's (flawed) stories.
This is just one single example and there is so much more...
Dany see's a Great Wolf and Burning Man amount the various shadows in MMDs tent.
She is a natural horseman, leaping flames on her silver after seemingly no experience. Even feeling one with the beast not unlike Lyanna being "half centaur".
She often thinks of the perfume of her childhood (not to be confused with the fish smell of Braavos described by Arya) like flowers
In the House of the Undying Rheagar looks at HER and says there must be one more... the vision of Aerys is not nearly so personal.
She sees herself as Rheagar in her dream.
She has a very Stark like Crypt dream, except with Valyrian looking kings.
And finally because there is so much more but I've rambled enough:
"You will drink," Dany said, cold as ice. "Empty the cup, or I will tell them to hold you down while Ser Jorah pours the whole cask down your throat." (Dany 6)
Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. "The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna."
Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. "I do not know which of you I pity most."
 
The queen seemed amused by that. "Save your pity for yourself, Lord Stark. I want none of it."
 
"You know what I must do."
 
"Must?" She put her hand on his good leg, just above the knee. "A true man does what he will, not what he must." Her fingers brushed lightly against his thigh, the gentlest of promises. "The realm needs a strong Hand. Joff will not come of age for years. No one wants war again, least of all me." Her hand touched his face, his hair. "If friends can turn to enemies, enemies can become friends. Your wife is a thousand leagues away, and my brother has fled. Be kind to me, Ned. I swear to you, you shall never regret it."
 
"Did you make the same offer to Jon Arryn?"
 
She slapped him.
 
"I shall wear that as a badge of honor," Ned said dryly.
 
"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
 
"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."
 
"Exile," she said. "A bitter cup to drink from."
 
"A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar's children," Ned said, "and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin's gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be."
 

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

There is so much more, but I'll leave with the fact that the first woman mentioned in Dany's tale, besides herself, is her mother... then the woman Rheagar loved and died for... then Elia.

Yes, it would seem to me that the woman Rhaegar loved and died for was Elia, the mother of his children knowing that his death would be her death as well.

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, it would seem to me that the woman Rhaegar loved and died for was Elia, the mother of his children knowing that his death would be her death as well.

Remember who you are?

"But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany. "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?"
"It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart, Your Grace. The PrincessElia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate." 
Dany pulled the lion pelt tighter about her shoulders. "Viserys said once that it was my fault, for being born too late." She had denied it hotly, she remembered, going so far as to tell Viserys that it was his fault for not being born a girl. He beat her cruelly for that insolence. "If I had been born more timely, he said, Rhaegar would have married me instead of Elia, and it would all have come out different. If Rhaegar had been happy in his wife, he would not have needed the Stark girl."
Remember the lion pelt is white... and irony...
Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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8 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Remember the lion pelt is white... and irony...

Can you explain what you mean please?

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Posted (edited)

7 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Can you explain what you mean please?

Viserys is accusing her of being born to late to stop the union of Rheagar and Lyanna... she is the product of Rheagar and Lyanna

Dany denies it hotly... she didn't put up a fight about much with Viserys when she was a kid. In fact her disputing this point could be said to "wake the dragon"? Often it seems it is the issue of who can't is that pisses off Viserys...

The narrow sea was often stormy, and Dany had crossed it half a hundred times as a girl, running from one Free City to the next half a step ahead of the Usurper's hired knives. She loved the sea. She liked the sharp salty smell of the air, and the vastness of horizons bounded only by a vault of azure sky above. It made her feel small, but free as well. She liked the dolphins that sometimes swam along beside Balerion, slicing through the waves like silvery spears, and the flying fish they glimpsed now and again. She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories. Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish."

Setting aside that there were no hired knives, and nowhere in Viserys's version of history would she remember sailing into braavos... There is that fish smell again, not to be confused with:

She did take a dozen flasks of scented oils, the perfumes of her childhood; she had only to close her eyes and sniff them and she could see the big house with the red door once more.

white is the color of House stark... like her silver, which it is often overlooked is white and grey the colors of house stark

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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24 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Viserys is accusing her of being born to late to stop the union of Rheagar and Lyanna... she is the product of Rheagar and Lyanna

Dany denies it hotly... she didn't put up a fight about much with Viserys when she was a kid. In fact her disputing this point could be said to "wake the dragon"?

white is the color of House stark... like her silver, which it is often overlooked is white and grey the colors of house stark

Thanks for explaining.  I can see how that would be ironic.  About the white symbolism, white hair is a symbol of Targaryen inbreeding, so having a white lion (white lions are produced by inbreeding) pelt is not necessarily incompatible with her Targaryen heritage.  Similarly, Jon's Ghost marks him as having a Targaryen parent, as well as possibly Tyrion's shock of white hair.  White lions are a result of a rare recessive genetic condition 'leucism' which is slightly less severe than 'albinism'.  As a result, white lions frequently have pale blue eyes rather than appearing red like Ghost.  

In short, I don't think Dany would have the classic features of inbred Targaryens if Lyanna were her mother, since that would cancel out the phenotypic expression of the 'prized' recessive genes.  You would have a dark-haired, dark-eyed child, as we see with Jon.

If you're interested, I've previously written extensively on albinism and how GRRM relates the disease symbolically, particularly with reference to the Targaryens.

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Posted (edited)

32 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

white is the color of House stark... like her silver, which it is often overlooked is white and grey the colors of house stark

I interpret covering herself in the skin of a white lion as having the protection of such a one at some point.

I would also say that her wake the dragon dream where she sees the line of kings with a pale sword and Selmy's assessment of her as having the appearance of a young Ashara Dayne points to Ashara as her mother.  It's seems likely to me that her father is Aerys and the one who dishonored Ashara at the tourney.  Arthur could hardly do anything about it since his oath of the KG requires his to turn a blind eye to such offences, even for a sister.  Ashara wasn't tied down to Staffall during the Rebellion; so it's entirely possible that she was confined to KL by Aerys and that she gave birth to Dany there during one of their famous summer storms.  The child would have been taken from her by Varys on the king's orders and hidden for her protection.  The girl child that was stolen from her according to Cersei.  How would Cersei know this if she didn't hear it from the servants at KL at some point.    Her mistake is in thinking that Ned took the child.

Hidden among the orphan boats with their carvings, painted doors and smell of fish.

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)

20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I interpret covering herself in the skin of a white lion as having the protection of such a one at some point.

Good point.  Barristan Selmy -- aka 'whitebeard' -- is one of them.  'Hrakkar' in Dothraki means lion, sword and lightning strike.  

Quote

I would also say that her wake the dragon dream where she sees the line of kings with a pale sword and Selmy's assessment of her as having the appearance of a young Ashara Dayne points to Ashara as her mother.  It's seems likely to me that her father is Aerys and the one who dishonored Ashara at the tourney.  Arthur could hardly do anything about it since his oath of the KG requires his to turn a blind eye to such offences, even for a sister. 

Perhaps that's why Arthur seems sad when reminiscing about 'we all took oaths...'

Quote

Ashara wasn't tied down to Staffall during the Rebellion; so it's entirely possible that she was confined to KL by Aerys and that she gave birth to Dany there during one of their famous summer storms.  The child would have been taken from her by Varys on the king's orders and hidden for her protection.  The girl child that was stolen from her according to Cersei.  How would Cersei know this if she didn't hear it from the servants at KL at some point.    Her mistake is in thinking that Ned took the child.

Hidden among the orphan boats with their carvings, painted doors and smell of fish.

Cersei?  I don't recall Cersei's role in this?

As you know, I agree about the orphan boats ;)

The 'lemon trees' on the banks are mentioned in conjunction with the 'spider-webbing' of the canals, the latter perhaps obliquely referencing Varys's role in the affair.  The 'red door' would be on the boat.  It's strange though that she'd remember lemon trees and red doors, but not the river!

Also, Aerys has some curious lion symbolism going on with his long clawed fingernails and devouring women like a beast.  

ETA:  Assuming you're right about Ashara as mother, the million-dollar question:

Will Dany whom we all love to hate and hate to love prove a 'worthy' Dayne, or not..?  :devil:

Edited by ravenous reader

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Posted (edited)

28 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Thanks for explaining.  I can see how that would be ironic.  About the white symbolism, white hair is a symbol of Targaryen inbreeding, so having a white lion (white lions are produced by inbreeding) pelt is not necessarily incompatible with her Targaryen heritage.  Similarly, Jon's Ghost marks him as having a Targaryen parent, as well as possibly Tyrion's shock of white hair.  White lions are a result of a rare recessive genetic condition 'leucism' which is slightly less severe than 'albinism'.  As a result, white lions frequently have pale blue eyes rather than appearing red like Ghost.  

In short, I don't think Dany would have the classic features of inbred Targaryens if Lyanna were her mother, since that would cancel out the phenotypic expression of the 'prized' recessive genes.  You would have a dark-haired, dark-eyed child, as we see with Jon.

If you're interested, I've previously written extensively on albinism and how GRRM relates the disease symbolically, particularly with reference to the Targaryens.

Interesting assessment, but I think you are thinking a little literally about the genetics of the Targ hair/eye color. Clearly it doesn't follow rl rules.

For instance why would Aegon (Rheagar-Elia) have the purple eyes and spun silver/gold hair? His sister didn't, other martell/targ offspring don't... in fact there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason the the Targ traits being passed down besides that inbreeding makes it more likely.

Even amoung Ned's true born kids the Tully/Stark looks go both ways Arya and Sansa are a perfect example...

"The direwolf," she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid.
"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me." 
He sounded so tired that it made Arya sad. "I don't hate Sansa," she told him. "Not truly." It was only half a lie.
As different as the sun and the moon but with the same blood...
When he kept very still, his leg did not hurt so much, so he did his best to lie unmoving. For how long he could not say. There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares. The thought of Cat was as painful as a bed of nettles. He wondered where she was, what she was doing. He wondered whether he would ever see her again.
Here is where Ned thinks of "broken" promises, where before it was just promises. What changed? Robert sent his assassin after Dany.
Just to reiterate this is the first assassin sent, despite Viserys's stories of "the usurper's hired knives".
Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Interesting assessment, but I think you are thinking a little literally about the genetics of the Targ hair/eye color. Clearly it doesn't follow rl rules.

LOL.  I love to be accused of thinking too literally -- I'm usually accused of the opposite!  :)

2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

For instance why would Aegon (Rheagar-Elia) have the purple eyes and spun silver/gold hair?

Because he's fAegon.

2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

His sister didn't, other martell/targ offspring don't...

Do we know what color hair and eyes Rhaenys had?  I'm not good at these details, so you'll have to help me out.

2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

in fact there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason the the Targ traits being passed down besides that inbreeding makes it more likely.

Even amoung Ned's true born kids the Tully Stark looks to both ways Arya and Sansa are a perfect example...

You often have redheads and brunettes in the same family.  The family of one of my friends exemplifies this.

2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:
"The direwolf," she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid.
"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me." 
He sounded so tired that it made Arya sad. "I don't hate Sansa," she told him. "Not truly." It was only half a lie.
As different as the sun and the moon but with the same blood...
When he kept very still, his leg did not hurt so much, so he did his best to lie unmoving. For how long he could not say. There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares. The thought of Cat was as painful as a bed of nettles. He wondered where she was, what she was doing. He wondered whether he would ever see her again.
Here is where Ned thinks of "broken" promises, where before it was just promises. What changed? Robert sent his assassin after Dany.
Just to reiterate this is the first assassin sent, despite Viserys's stories of "the usurper's hired knives".

Promises plural.  Did he make a promise to someone other than Lyanna perhaps?

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3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I'll sum up my timeline related thoughts to clarify. I accept the whole "putting away the ruler" concept. And I accept that GRRM is telling the truth about Jon being 8-9 months older than Dany. However, I don't think the Dany in our story, the one born 8-9 months after Jon, is necessarily the real Dany born on DS 8-9 months after the sack of KL.

I always figured that Lyanna died from giving birth, and most women who die from giving birth die fairly quickly. So I assume that Ned was at the TOJ during the birth or right after. Obviously this may not be true, but that's what I consider most likely. Assuming for a moment that B+A=J and R+L=D, if Jon was conceived at the latest possible moment by Brandon, that is when he was in the black cells, Jon would be born about 8 months into the war, and Dany would have been born at the TOJ about 17 months into the war according to that SSM. This would give Ned ample time to finish business at KL, lift the siege at Storm's End, find out Lyanna's location, and get to the TOJ.

Alternatively, if R+L=J and Dany=Dany as most people believe, then Jon would have been born essentially at the same time as the sack of KL, and either Lyanna would have had to survive a long time after giving birth, or Ned needed a jet pack. Obviously Lyanna could have died from an infection long after giving birth, but I think that would be a little odd for them to have just kept Lyanna trapped in a tower dying slowly with no maester to help. I certainly think it is possible that R+L=J, but I'm betting against it. And I am not betting against it because of the timeline. Both timelines are messy. I am betting against it because of all the other evidence in the story which I won't bother to argue about here.

With all due respect, it is absurd to assume dates to fit your theory instead of build a theory around dates, events - in short to manufacture evidence to fit a preexisting theory. You want Brandon to be Jon's father, so you assume the latest date of his life is the day Jon is conceived. Never mind, there is no evidence to support this conclusion. You want it to work so you set all the parameters to enable it to be possible. Look again at what you assume. Brandon is held prisoner in the Red Keep, but somehow you assume that somehow Ashara, who just happens to be in King's Landing, gets Varys or the other jailers to allow Brandon a conjugal visit from an old girlfriend. Is there any evidence this happened? No. No, there isn't.

In fact, it is likely that Ashara is dismissed from court by this time. Lady companions of a royal princess who are disgraced at Harrenhal aren't likely to stay in service to Elia. If Ashara is pregnant from Harrenhal, that puts the birth of her child, who Selmy tells us is a stillborn girl, in the seventh or eighth month of 282, not in the period of 283 that you theorize for Jon's birth. That evidence is inconvenient to your theory, so it is ignored.

And so it goes with this idea. You cherry pick dates and evidence to enable it to be remotely possible. Instead of accepting the "nine moons" after the flight to Dragonstone as Daenerys's birth, you invent an entirely new child to take her place, because Dany's name date is inconvenient to your theory. Never mind the abundant evidence that Dany is just who she says she is. This defines crackpot.

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Posted (edited)

 

14 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

LOL.  I love to be accused of thinking too literally -- I'm usually accused of the opposite!  :)

Because he's fAegon.

Do we know what color hair and eyes Rhaenys had?  I'm not good at these details, so you'll have to help me out.

You often have redheads and brunettes in the same family.  The family of one of my friends exemplifies this.

Promises plural.  Did he make a promise to someone other than Lyanna perhaps?

Or Lyanna had two children...

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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Posted (edited)

36 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Good point.  Barristan Selmy -- aka 'whitebeard' -- is one of them.  'Hrakkar' in Dothraki means lion, sword and lightning strike.  

Perhaps that's why Arthur seems sad when reminiscing about 'we all took oaths...'

Cersei?  I don't recall Cersei's role in this?

As you know, I agree about the orphan boats ;)

The 'lemon trees' on the banks are mentioned in conjunction with the 'spider-webbing' of the canals, the latter perhaps obliquely referencing Varys's role in the affair.  The 'red door' would be on the boat.  It's strange though that she'd remember lemon trees and red doors, but not the river!

Also, Aerys has some curious lion symbolism going on with his long clawed fingernails and devouring women like a beast.  

ETA:  Assuming you're right about Ashara as mother, the million-dollar question:

Will Dany whom we all love to hate and hate to love prove a 'worthy' Dayne, or not..?  :devil:

I trust Selmy's recollections of Ashara's appearance since we don't have much in these books in the way of portraits except for the tapestries of the Targaryen ancesters and the occassional statue.  Not even Lyanna's statue does her justice in Robert's eyes.

I'm referring to the conversation that Ned has with Cersei in the God's grove when he confronts her about her incest.  She throws out the business of his 'affair' with Ashara and the loss of her girl child.  Also suggesting that he stole a child from her.  Swinging wildly in other words based on various gossip she has no doubt heard over the years.

Of course, I agree with your assessment of the Orphan Boats as a likely hiding place for Dany.  It explains the lemon trees as well.

Concerning Aerys' lion symbolism, exactly the point that lions represent kingship or royalty. Dany's father perhaps.  Although the stag and horned lord symbolism around Jon doesn't make him a Targaryen in my view.  Only that Longclaw and the sleeping lion banner nearly torn in two also points to royalty and kingship and that he nearly died in childbirth.  Twin fawns spattered in blood, of which only one survived; delivered by a butcher... someone without any healing or medical knowledge other than the anatomy of animals.  A Silent Brother in other words.

As for the Dayne sword; I think Brienne is being set up as the Last Hero in this turning of the wheel; while Dany is being set up as Nissa Nissa or the crone who carries the lantern.  The one who opens the door and lets the first crow fly into the world; the one who actually brings the light.  

Brienne might also be considered lion-hearted, a true knight to Dany's as true dragon and Jon as true sword.  Brienne might be the white lion taller than a man that Dany sees in the HoU.   There is plenty of morningstar/eveningstar symbolism around Brienne not to rule it out.

Jon has Targ blood from the Baratheon side, which explains Tyrion's comment that Jon has more of the north in him and by omission, less of the dragon. 

Edited by LynnS

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40 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Good point.  Barristan Selmy -- aka 'whitebeard' -- is one of them.  'Hrakkar' in Dothraki means lion, sword and lightning strike.  

 

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I interpret covering herself in the skin of a white lion as having the protection of such a one at some point.

 

Another "white lion" making his way to Daenerys is Moqorro. Dany will be AA returned, as Moqorro says. She will be the consuming fire on earth and Moq is going to serve her. And Moqorro was "delivered" to Victarion via a storm. That is when we meet Moqorro in the quote below.

A Dance with Dragons - The Iron Suitor

Grief's master awaited them on deck. A small man, as hairy as he was homely, he was a Sparr by birth. His men called him the Vole. "Lord Captain," he said when Victarion appeared, "this is Moqorro. A gift to us from the Drowned God."
The wizard was a monster of a man, as tall as Victarion himself and twice as wide, with a belly like a boulder and a tangle of bone-white hair that grew about his face like a lion's mane. His skin was black. Not the nut brown of the Summer Islanders on their swan ships, nor the red-brown of the Dothraki horselords, nor the charcoal-and-earth color of the dusky woman's skin, but black. Blacker than coal, blacker than jet, blacker than a raven's wing. Burned, Victarion thought, like a man who has been roasted in the flames until his flesh chars and crisps and falls smoking from his bones. The fires that had charred him still danced across his cheeks and forehead, where his eyes peered out from amongst a mask of frozen flames. Slave tattoos, the captain knew. Marks of evil.

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