andy_wan_kenobi

The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

243 posts in this topic

9 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

. Is there any other example of a character's pov remembering things wrong?

Sansa remembering the un-kiss with the Hound.

Also, my childhood memories often conflict with that of how my parents tell me certain things happened.

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

ROFLMAO, that's beyond ridiculous.

It's far worse than ridiculous. Heck do you know what they have done to Tormund?

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15 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Just because it's conceivable doesn't make it likely... and it's not just the lemon tree, it's the grass on her bare feet, the carved wooden beams in the shape of animals, and even the red door doesn't fit in Braavos. 

Well, the Sealord as a huuuge garden... perhaps there was some kind of a guest house, which the children had to leave when a new, less friendly Sealord took the seat?

BTW, if the house with the red door, in which she lived with Darry and Vis, was not in Braavos, why did the Sealord sign the pact as a witness?

15 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Lemons associated with Dorne, on that we agree! But Dany wasn't included at all in the marriage pact signed by Darry and Oberyn in Braavos. So that makes no sense...

???? How does it make no sense when Quentyn was sent to her with the document??? Doran Martell apparently though the pact concerned her quite a lot.

15 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

if the legitimized son is older they should inherit... not always the case of course because inheritance is messy, and like we see with the Blackfyre's men like Bloodraven may try and skip over them anyway. But the quote you listed doesn't imply what you are saying no matter how many times I read it, maybe if you go back and look at the context it will help. Roose doesn't expect Ramsey to live, but even so there would clearly be a conflict between Ramsey and he "boy lords", Roosevelt is turning up his nose at both options.

That is incorrect, Roose doesn't expect his sons with Walda to live. 

Let's look at it again, shall we? Ramsay is an adult man and he is legitimized. In your scenario, Walda's children don't get to inherit because he is before them in the succession line - but Walda is not concerned that her children wouldn't inherit, the Freys are not concerned, either? Next, Roose says that he is too old to see his children by Walda reach adulthood and that when he dies, Ramsay will kill them. And, with his typical sensitivity, Roose says that this is a good thing because it means that an adult man will become the head of the house instead of a boy. Now, why should Roose say this if Ramsay was before Walda's children in the succession line? Of course, Ramsay would off his little brothers regardless but none of the would be a lord if Ramsay was the heir.

15 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Meanwhile we factually know that multiple parts of Viserys story are contradicted by facts including the "hired knives" and the escape to dragonstone.

Yes, we do know that Viserys is delusional, but Dany's memory of the house with red door and Willem Darry are her own, not what Viserys told her. And if you mean that Darry didn't live with her in Braavos, then we are getting back to the question why the hell it was the Sealord who signed the pact.

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28 minutes ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

It's far worse than ridiculous. Heck do you know what they have done to Tormund?

Do I even want to know? Does it concern his member?

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Posted (edited)

52 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Meanwhile we factually know that multiple parts of Viserys story are contradicted by facts including the "hired knives" and the escape to dragonstone.

I'm not sure how the "hired knives" are relevant to the credibility of Dany's memorys. If my memory is not faulty :D, was that not a lie told to Viserys, rather than conflicting facts.

As far as the escape to Dragonstone, are you referring to Jamie's comment that they left in the morning, but Viserys remembers a midnight flight?

Is it not possible that by the time they arrived at Dragonstone it was dark? Therefore Viserys, a young child, would remember it as a midnight flight.

In fact, does this trip not take more than a day? I'm not so sure this is conflicting information at all.

Edited by Darkstream

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11 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Do I even want to know? Does it concern his member?

I am not sure if you want to know and someone could say that it has to do with his member.

They have that "theory" about the 3 KG Dayne, Whent and Hightower are Mance, Halfhand and Tormund they forget that for example Tormund has children older than 17 years old. How the White Bull could have children Beyond the Wall before him becoming Tormund? Also somehow Gerold Hightower had a relationship with Maege Mormont and was the father of her daughters, two of them were older than 20 years old, and somehow Maege helped Gerold to help Rhaegar in and out of the North and that was the reason why Jeor was sent to the Wall, in order to pay for his sister’s crime.

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Posted (edited)

So what's the theory about the Dayne, When and Hightower being Mance, Halfhand and Tormund? Which would be which? 

Reason I'm asking is because I've never heard it before.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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20 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So what's the theory about the Dayne, When and Hightower being Mance, Halfhand and Tormund? Which would be which? 

Reason I'm asking is because I've never heard it before.

It's not really a theory.

Arthur Dayne=Mance Rayder, Oswell Whent=Qhorin Halfhand, Gerold Hightower=Tormund.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Lemons associated with Dorne, on that we agree! But Dany wasn't included at all in the marriage pact signed by Darry and Oberyn in Braavos. So that makes no sense...

It makes no sense? Dany didn't live alone in that house with the red door. She lived there with crowned Targaryen king of Westeros. Who was named in the marriage pact.

But it isn't a symbol of the marriage pact in particular. It looks to be a symbol of Dornish support for House Targaryen in exile - likely brought there on the occasion of the Red Viper's trip to sigh the marriage pact. About as open a one Prince Doran could make without having Robert's armies marching down the Boneway and through the Prince's Pass.

The problem with the Lemon Tree clue is that too many people have decided to conclude, through an outrageous leap in logic, it must mean Dany has forgotten a stay in Dorne, and therefore - and here is the most outrageous form of mental gymnastics - she isn't really Daenerys. Instead of asking the logical question of why a lemon tree is in Braavos, with the obvious answer that a lemon tree in Braavos implies the involvement of someone both rich and powerful enough to afford it being there. Combined with the Sealord's signature on the marriage pact we have our answer. Far from living a destitute and forgotten existence on their own in Braavos, the Targaryens are hosted on the Sealord's own grounds. Far from being abandoned by everyone in Westeros, including Dorne, Martin is telling us through these two clues that they had powerful support, even if Dany and Viserys were not aware of it.

Edited by SFDanny

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38 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Well, the Sealord as a huuuge garden... perhaps there was some kind of a guest house, which the children had to leave when a new, less friendly Sealord took the seat?

BTW, if the house with the red door, in which she lived with Darry and Vis, was not in Braavos, why did the Sealord sign the pact as a witness?

???? How does it make no sense when Quentyn was sent to her with the document??? Doran Martell apparently though the pact concerned her quite a lot.

That is incorrect, Roose doesn't expect his sons with Walda to live. 

Let's look at it again, shall we? Ramsay is an adult man and he is legitimized. In your scenario, Walda's children don't get to inherit because he is before them in the succession line - but Walda is not concerned that her children wouldn't inherit, the Freys are not concerned, either? Next, Roose says that he is too old to see his children by Walda reach adulthood and that when he dies, Ramsay will kill them. And, with his typical sensitivity, Roose says that this is a good thing because it means that an adult man will become the head of the house instead of a boy. Now, why should Roose say this if Ramsay was before Walda's children in the succession line? Of course, Ramsay would off his little brothers regardless but none of the would be a lord if Ramsay was the heir.

Yes, we do know that Viserys is delusional, but Dany's memory of the house with red door and Willem Darry are her own, not what Viserys told her. And if you mean that Darry didn't live with her in Braavos, then we are getting back to the question why the hell it was the Sealord who signed the pact.

There is no evidence of Viserys living in the house with the Red Door, nor do we know that Dany's kindly old protector she remembers dying was in fact Darry. They are assumptions based on what she has been told since. 

clearly I'm not suggesting her memory is perfect, but he vivid details she recalls should be given credence. Especially when she is getting told over and over to "remember who she is".

It seems to me that Viserys was in Braavos with Darry as evidence by the marriage pact... And it does seem there was a change in Sealord, I find this highly suspicious since after that it seems Illyrio had them running all over Essos (telling the stormborn story) but seemingly living in poverty and scared of nonexistent usurper's knives (Varys and by extension Illyrio know quite well this is bullshit) and Illyrio is supper wealthy and planned to marry Dany to Drogo for "years". There is no reason they had to live poor except by design.

Not to get to dragged into the Boltons but: "The woman disobeyed me, though. You see what Ramsay is. She made him, her and Reek, always whispering in his ear about his rights. He should have been content to grind corn. Does he truly think that he can ever rule the north?"

Give Roose his due, he's creepy as shit but one of the real players, he knows what he has in Ramsay and I really doubt that he's putting eggs in that basket.

 

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42 minutes ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

I am not sure if you want to know and someone could say that it has to do with his member.

They have that "theory" about the 3 KG Dayne, Whent and Hightower are Mance, Halfhand and Tormund they forget that for example Tormund has children older than 17 years old. How the White Bull could have children Beyond the Wall before him becoming Tormund? Also somehow Gerold Hightower had a relationship with Maege Mormont and was the father of her daughters, two of them were older than 20 years old, and somehow Maege helped Gerold to help Rhaegar in and out of the North and that was the reason why Jeor was sent to the Wall, in order to pay for his sister’s crime.

It's either the biggest bullshit ever, or the most epic trolling ever, I can't decide. Do people seem to take this one seriously? :D

5 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

There is no evidence of Viserys living in the house with the Red Door, nor do we know that Dany's kindly old protector she remembers dying was in fact Darry. They are assumptions based on what she has been told since. 

The bolded is your own assumption, though, there is no quote suggesting that she was told only later who the kind old man was. Plus, children of 3-4 can already remember "their" people.

Besides, do you realize how ridiculous it is to claim that for Dany not being Dany, you need Darry not to be Darry, either?

5 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

clearly I'm not suggesting her memory is perfect, but he vivid details she recalls should be given credence. Especially when she is getting told over and over to "remember who she is".

Well, technically, if she is not who she is, she cannot remember :P

And it can easily mean that she should go back to her family heritage instead of playing a queen of Meereen.

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20 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

It makes no sense? Dany didn't live alone in that house with the red door. She lived there with crowned Targaryen king of Westeros. Who was named in the marriage pact.

But it isn't a symbol of the marriage pact in particular. It looks to be a symbol of Dornish support for House Targaryen in exile - likely brought there on the occasion of the Red Viper's trip to sigh the marriage pact. About as open a one Prince Doran could make without having Robert's armies marching down the Boneway and through the Prince's Pass.

The problem with the Lemon Tree clue is that too many people have decided to conclude, through an outrageous leap in logic, it must mean Dany has forgotten a stay in Dorne, and therefore - and here is the most outrageous form of mental gymnastics - she isn't really Daenerys. Instead of asking the logical question of why a lemon tree is in Braavos, with the obvious answer that a lemon tree in Braavos implies the involvement of someone both rich and powerful enough to afford it being there. Combined with the Sealord's signature on the marriage pact we have our answer. Far from living a destitute and forgotten existence on their own in Braavos, the Targaryens are hosted on the Sealord's own grounds. Far from being abandoned by everyone in Westeros, including Dorne, Martin is telling us through these two clues that they had powerful support, even if Dany and Viserys were not aware of it.

No no no...

Dany doesn't ever remember Viserys in the House with the Red door...

we don't know the kindly grey old bear of a man she remembers was Darry...

it isn't just the lemon tree, that's just an obvious repeated discrepancy... as I've already said there is a lot about the classic story we're given that makes no sense.

And lots of textual reasons to believe Dany has Stark Blood.

"Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don't you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too."

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1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Sansa remembering the un-kiss with the Hound.

Also, my childhood memories often conflict with that of how my parents tell me certain things happened.

I have no idea what you are talking about... quote?

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8 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

No no no...

Dany doesn't ever remember Viserys in the House with the Red door...

we don't know the kindly grey old bear of a man she remembers was Darry...

it isn't just the lemon tree, that's just an obvious repeated discrepancy... as I've already said there is a lot about the classic story we're given that makes no sense.

And lots of textual reasons to believe Dany has Stark Blood.

"Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don't you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too."

So where is it mentioned in-text that Daenerys has Stark blood?

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9 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

And, as we all know, Ned would see no other option than to fuck his nephew out of his birthright, for politics and for his own personal gain. That's the Ned we all know, all right. That's why after Robert's death, he threw Stannis under the ox cart and declared for Joffrey.

This makes about the same amount of sense as the one that started this thread, namely Edric Dayne being born four years after the deaths of both his parents. Let's not sugarcoat it, this is a stupid theory.

Yes, Ned Stark is not really one to ignore succession laws just because it's practical. If he were, he might still have a head.

The problem I have with Dany being Lyanna's daughter is that it makes Ned one of the worst parental figures in the books, bested only by complete monsters like Craster and Tywin. Ned's apparent idea of keeping Dany safe is to allow her to give her to Ashara Dayne (OK, sure) and then keep absolutely no tabs on her. Then, when he finds out she's living as Aerys' daughter and might be killed by anyone looking to please Robert, what does he do? Does he send men out to bring her back and rescue her? Nope. When she's wed to a Dothraki barbarian, does he send someone to smuggle her to freedom? No. When Robert orders her dead, what does he do? He... resigns. Big whoop. If I were Lyanna's ghost, I'd be spitting on Ned for his piss-poor efforts. Really, do people actually think that this is Ned Stark?

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13 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So where is it mentioned in-text that Daenerys has Stark blood?

Where does it say Jon is a Targaryen? What a ridiculous question... if you are looking for a handful of examples of textual evidence I think I gave some up thread...

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Posted (edited)

Well he can't send men to rescue her, since Robert would want her dead just for being "dragonspawn". They'd look a tad conspicuous and Ser Friendzone would probably thing they're sent to finish him or Daenerys (who cares about Viserys?)

1 minute ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Where does it say Jon is a Targaryen? What a ridiculous question... if you are looking for a handful of examples of textual evidence I think I gave some up thread...

If you could show me the way... 

It isn't ridiculous, I'd just like to know where this one comes from.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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24 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I have no idea what you are talking about... quote?

I'm at work on my phone, so I am unable to track down the quote right now. But Sansa falsely remembers Sandor kissing her in her chambers, after he fled the Blackwater. And this is something that she remembers incorrectly after only a year or two, not a distant childhood memory.

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Just now, Angel Eyes said:

Well he can't send men to rescue her, since Robert would want her dead just for being "dragonspawn". They'd look a tad conspicuous and Ser Friendzone would probably thing they're sent to finish him or Daenerys (who cares about Viserys?)

She's been in Essos for god knows how long. And Ned has done nothing to help this young girl who is supposedly his niece. He's left her to the whims of fate and allowed her to live her life with a huge target on her back. If that barrel of wine had succeeded, what would Ned's excuse have been in the afterlife when he meets his sister? 'Oh, sorry, it would have been too conspicuous to send help. I really gave it my all though.' No. Ned's efforts, if Dany is his niece, are appallingly lacking.

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Posted (edited)

Any ideas on what he could have done, then? She already had a big target just for being Targaryen, as well as the looks. If she had gone the other way and not had the archetypal Targaryen looks, things would be easier, Ned would pass her off as his bastard child, bring her up North and raise her as his own, just as he did with Jon Snow (at least in the show, will have to see about Jon's parentage in the books). 

Anyways, Ned's not too good at being covert, as shown in his investigations into Jon Arryn's death.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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