Will Jon marry Val?

[Moiraine Sedai]

Marry, as in a formal ceremony of marriage?  It's not a requirement but they can commit in front of a weir tree.  The free folk do not put much stock in formal ceremonies.  They can just as simply live together and live as if married.  Jon is almost a wildling himself.  I see no reason why he would require a formal ceremony. 

[M_Tootles]

16 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So, there has to be a reason why Jon was born of a non-incest coupling, and why Dany was, and what it could predict for the future. Dany will follow the Targ custom and join with Aegon, while Jon will not join with a blood relative. As Ygritte tells Jon and the reader, "You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

Oh, and to answer your question about Jon and Val, he already has and it is NOT for a generic cool couple ship, but for actual desire and political advantage both.

Happy reading

Totally agree with everything else you said here re: GRRM and the mad scientist/eugenics theme... like, TOTALLY. It's huge and at the core of what's really going on, I think. I do think, however, that sometimes a figurative mad scientist mightt "get it". That said, RLJ is IMO NOT what's really going on, so I don't think the child of incest/not of incest is actually a key distinction between the two. Dany does have incest bait, however, but it's not about about more than Targ blood, and she's already taken it. Gonna read your whole Nymeria thing, as I've assumed Jon+Val for a long time and your take looks (literally) awesome.

[Scorpion92]

I think Val will not survive Winds of Winter precisely because people tend to ship her with Jon and become his wife. It is just not this kind of story. For all we know she might unexpectedly die in the upcomint conflic between Bowen Marsh and wildlings or even northern civil war that is brewing.

[The Fattest Leech]

55 minutes ago, M_Tootles said:

Totally agree with everything else you said here re: GRRM and the mad scientist/eugenics theme... like, TOTALLY. It's huge and at the core of what's really going on, I think. I do think, however, that sometimes a figurative mad scientist mightt "get it". 

Yeah, I think there are several examples as to why the incest/gene eugenics thing doesn't = winner, winner, dragon dinner. I just picked one for the sake of that one post.

55 minutes ago, M_Tootles said:

 

That said, RLJ is IMO NOT what's really going on,

Totally agree. There is a much larger, long-term story going on.

55 minutes ago, M_Tootles said:

so I don't think the child of incest/not of incest is actually a key distinction between the two. Dany does have incest bait, however, but it's not about about more than Targ blood, and she's already taken it.

I can see that. I think, for me, it is just another example as I noted above. I think the idea of the incest/blood purity thing could be explored on its own in another thread, but man, that would just be naysayer bait without any real discussion.

55 minutes ago, M_Tootles said:

Gonna read your whole Nymeria thing, as I've assumed Jon+Val for a long time and your take looks (literally) awesome.

I wish you glad tidings and I recommend taking a snack along with you (and maybe one of these for refreshment) because that main thread post is long, but I tried to keep it updated from one spot.

[M_Tootles]

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Totally agree. There is a much larger, long-term story going on.

Ah, maybe I misunderstood. It seemed like you were assuming RLJ was fact.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, M_Tootles said:

Ah, maybe I misunderstood. It seemed like you were assuming RLJ was fact.

I do think it is fairly solid, but I also freely admit that nothing is known until we read "The End". I can see reasonable debate for other theories, but then, more often than not, it boils down to the (imperfect) timeline and how that screws up perfect plotting.

And actually, I also think that no matter who Jon came from, and whether he is a bastard or not, none of that will mean a lick of anything when the Long Night happens and most of Westeros dies.

[Protagoras]

Val patted the long bone knife on her hip. "Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he's been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him."

If this is the best line of seduction that Val can muster, then certainly nothing will come out of this. I don´t see Jon as a person who would take this as a challenge (sounds very rapey). And tbh, I have a hard time seeing Val coming back from this - showing interest later, when Jon know that she threatened him with castration last time (I can´t speak for all males certainly, but for me - this would be a big no-no). In fact, if she actuallty is interested then I wonder what the hell she was thinking with - since it it should be seen as a challenge she certainly look more...psycho. Again, look at Ygritte here for comparison. Ygritte more or less had to semi-force herself on Jon for anything to happen. And she certainly didn´t give veiled threats but very much the opposite.

In addition, it would fit very poorly with that Jon has already said no to Stannis offer. Val looks to be more of passing temptation in order to show how virtous our hero is or to show that the hero won´t get everything, like Cho Chang is in Harry Potter.

[The Fattest Leech]

8 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Val patted the long bone knife on her hip. "Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he's been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him."

If this is the best line of seduction that Val can muster, then certainly nothing will come out of this. I don´t see Jon as a person who would take this as a challenge (sounds very rapey). And tbh, I have a hard time seeing Val coming back from this - showing interest later, when Jon know that she threatened him with castration last time (I can´t speak for all males certainly, but for me - this would be a big no-no). In fact, if she actuallty is interested then I wonder what the hell she was thinking with - since it it should be seen as a challenge she certainly look more...psycho. Again, look at Ygritte here for comparison. Ygritte more or less had to semi-force herself on Jon for anything to happen. And she certainly didn´t give veiled threats but very much the opposite.

Remember, Jon is having a hard time accepting he is a warg controlling his gift. All the other wargs he comes in to contact with can tell this about Jon pretty much right away. Gelding is a way to control the "wild", and it was used more as a euphemism to help Jon take control of himself. The free folk are familiar with the ways of wargs, and they accept them even if they sometimes fear them. No one south of the wall knows much about identifying a warg, much less being able to help them control their gifts.

Quote

 

In addition, it would fit very poorly with that Jon has already said no to Stannis offer. Val looks to be more of passing temptation in order to show how virtous our hero is or to show that the hero won´t get everything, like Cho Chang is in Harry Potter.

But if you think back, Jon thinks he has to turn it down because he is a bastard, and that is the bastards decision. When/if Jon finds out otherwise, and the fact that the free folk do not care about such trivial things like being born a bastard, Jon can make a different decision. This goes a long way into re-uniting the north with a stronger army with actual knowledge of the Others and wights (and additional gene pool) to fight against the opposing force and to repopulate once the winter passes.

[Protagoras]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Gelding is a way to control the "wild", and it was used more as a euphemism to help Jon take control of himself.

Yeah, if I was Jon Snow and you (as Val) are telling me later that "that" is what you meant, I am going to believe that you are nuts. Its like saying that KKK doesn´t hate black people, them just burning them up is just a euphemism for the sick society we all live, a cry for help. No one in their right mind will believe that. Most sane people will try to hold the distance here. After all, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Occhams razor should be very clear on what Jon think what Val said mean. And I don´t think its really that debatable tbh. You might interpret it one way as a reader because you hope for a certain solution, but this CLEARLY breaks suspension of disbelief, at least for me.

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

But if you think back, Jon thinks he has to turn it down because he is a bastard, and that is the bastards decision. When/if Jon finds out otherwise, and the fact that the free folk do not care about such trivial things like being born a bastard, Jon can make a different decision.

Certainly, but why would he make a different decision after this threat?

Because as I see it, Val has some explaining to do here. And I am sure that there are many other ladies for Jon here that are not hinting on that his gear need to go.

[The Fattest Leech]

10 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Yeah, if I was Jon Snow and you (as Val) are telling me later that "that" is what you meant, I am going to believe that you are nuts. Its like saying that KKK doesn´t hate black people, them just burning them up is just a euphemism for the sick society we all live, a cry for help. No one in their right mind will believe that. Most sane people will try to hold the distance here. After all, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Occhams razor should be very clear on what Jon think what Val said mean. And I don´t think its really that debatable tbh. You might interpret it one way as a reader because you hope for a certain solution, but this CLEARLY breaks suspension of disbelief, at least for me.

Certainly, but why would he make a different decision after this threat?

Fair enough, if it was you then this is how you would react, however, after this happens there is still flirting between them with each other.

But all in all, this pairing has a lot more to do than just flirting.

Quote

 

Because as I see it, Val has some explaining to do here. And I am sure that there are many other ladies for Jon here that are not hinting on that his gear need to go.

Well, we will have to wait and see what happens after the mutiny, because that is when "know nothing" Jon Snow will gain some knowledge and he will need the people with experience to help him.

[Lord Lannister]

22 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Abomination with your tv show quotes 

I think Jon may die in the end end, but there is business to be done first. 

And by business, I also mean bizzzness 

That bizzzness (  ), would only make his death guaranteed. We all know every moment of joy in ASoIaF is bought with a moment of pain ten times worse.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

That bizzzness (  ), would only make his death guaranteed. We all know every moment of joy in ASoIaF is bought with a moment of pain ten times worse.

The only time Tywin was truly caught off guard, when he finally decided to reward himself after winning a hard fought war. Seems all kinds of wrong when you think about it.

[khal drogon]

Val doesn't deserve a zombie.

[BalerionTheCat]

11 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Val patted the long bone knife on her hip. "Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he's been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him."

She used "Lord Crow". I read it more as a challenge or frustration against his vows. The wildling women are supposed to resist (more or less), the men wanting to steal and marry them. It was following Tormund boasting:

Best steal her quick, before Toregg wakes up and takes her first.

It is her style to play with Jon.

He turned to Val. "My lady. With me, if you please."
"The crow commands, the captive must obey." Her tone was playful.

And this one. Is it not a taunt?

You lied about her beard. That one has more hair on her chin than I have between my legs.

[Protagoras]

4 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

She used "Lord Crow". I read it more as a challenge or frustration against his vows. The wildling women are supposed to resist (more or less), the men wanting to steal and marry them. It was following Tormund boasting:

Best steal her quick, before Toregg wakes up and takes her first.

It is her style to play with Jon.

He turned to Val. "My lady. With me, if you please."
"The crow commands, the captive must obey." Her tone was playful.

And this one. Is it not a taunt?

You lied about her beard. That one has more hair on her chin than I have between my legs.

And I can´t see this work with Jon at all. He is not that type. So if Val have this strategy in order to get Jon to her bed, she is not very efficient. It is at best a challenge that only fit a person of their culture, a culture Jon does not belong to. In addition, it didn´t work for Ygritte at all when she tried it - she was forced to be the one taking some real intiatives, instead of hoping that Jon would drive it (Jon in the first three books didn´t drive ANYTHING). 

And no, the beard between her legs is not a taunt. It is playful banter, with a slight sexual tone. Nothing that screams "I want to have sex with you", but more of a normal, slighty mature joke. This might comes as a shock, but friends of different genders can flirt and give sexual hints without meaning it as an sexual invite. And there is a reason why the "no means no debate" is slight more complicated in real life, because people believe in hints that were never there in the first place. Hints that Val in this case, if you are correct, hope Jon will notice. And if he does - what would it say about Jon?

And tbh, I think all people here try to "read" too much into all this. It might be interesting from a Doylist perspective to speculate in a Jon-Val romance (and most certainly GRRM can write it later in a way so it works), but I have a hard time to see that Jon is confortable with this right now as it stands. Again, occams razor is very clear on how Jon should read her initial threat, and no the most logical conclusion is NOT that it means something else than what the words tell. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. Certainly, other interpretations are theoretically possible. But regardless of how many euphemistic ways to think about this, the literal words should give pause. And if Jon later fins Val naked on his bed, those words should come back to him. 

In general, men and women can be friends as well - despite the rumors. So having some maybe sexual interpretable dialogue doesn´t mean that they have sexual feelings for eachother (and especially not that Jon have those feelings for Val - I could see it in the other direction though, maybe maybe). Again, the threat of castration should cut any reasonable person short (and I don´t see Jon having that strong feelings on Val in the first place). So if Val is trying to incite Jon into taking action, she is shooting herself hard in the foot as it stands now. You don´t give veiled threats and hope that your words will be interpretated in the rapiest ways possible when you deal with someone outside your culture. And tbh - if I were a wilding, I would not dare to gamble. She might mean it, she might not. And playing on the fickleness of women are a good way of losing more than you can afford so to speak, especially in this case. 

[BalerionTheCat]

41 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

And I can´t see this work with Jon at all. He is not that type....

I disagree. The remaining books will tell.

This is from ASoS, last Jon's chapter. Things have changed a bit since. But...

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall [...]
He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me [...]
As he walked toward the armory, Jon chanced to look up and saw Val standing in her tower window. I’m sorry, he thought. I’m not the man to steal you out of there.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

~~~

And I can´t see this work with Jon at all. He is not that type.

~~~

And tbh, I think all people here try to "read" too much into all this. It might be interesting from a Doylist perspective to speculate in a Jon-Val romance (and most certainly GRRM can write it later in a way so it works), but I have a hard time to see that Jon is confortable with this right now as it stands.

One of Jon's last thoughts before the mutiny stabbing was the safety of Val. Even after all of the adult taunts and teases and flirting, he still is concerned about her in the end.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me. Then he heard the shouting … and a roar so loud it seemed to shake the Wall. "That come from Hardin's Tower, m'lord," Horse reported. He might have said more, but the scream cut him off.

Val, was Jon's first thought. But that was no woman's scream. That is a man in mortal agony. He broke into a run. Horse and Rory raced after him. "Is it wights?" asked Rory. Jon wondered. Could his corpses have escaped their chains?

 

[White Ravens]

On 4/15/2017 at 7:10 PM, KarlDanski said:

Is Jon Snow most likely going to marry Val? His other options that are popular are Daenerys and Sansa, both of which are very closely related to him, and incest is disgusting, Lannister or Targaryen, it's disgusting.

Jon Snow and Val would both need to be alive for that to happen.  GRRM still has (at least) two books to write so that is not guaranteed in any way.  As a reader I would prefer that Jon marry Val over the other choices.  But declaring incest to be disgusting doesn't mean that the other two aren't possibilities.  If Jon is the product of Ned and a fisherman's daughter that would make Sansa his half sister.  Pretty disgusting and currently what many people in Westeros believe to be their relationship.  If Jon is the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna then Jon would be Sansa's first cousin.  Not so out of the question in Westeros and there is even precedence within royal families in our own history. Daenerys would be even further removed from Jon genetically than Sansa in that case so I doubt that it would cause a stir in Westeros.  At least I think that is the case.  

The ending of the story even makes a difference as to how squeamish the people of Westeros might react to any of these choices.  If the upcoming Long Night equates to massive losses to humanity objections over blood ties might not be as loud.  

[Protagoras]

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

One of Jon's last thoughts before the mutiny stabbing was the safety of Val. Even after all of the adult taunts and teases and flirting, he still is concerned about her in the end.

Yes, because something is happening right there right now. He did hear a shouting and a roar after all. And he has a responsibility over all on the wall. I might not like some of my co-workers, but if I hear a scream from their direction I will check on what goes on. That doesn´t mean something romantic.

And Jon doesn´t really know that it will be "one of his last thoughts", so it doesn´t really have weight. If he, like Rhaegar, would whisper her name before he did you would have a point.

I think you are grasping after romantic straws.

4 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I disagree. The remaining books will tell.

This is from ASoS, last Jon's chapter. Things have changed a bit since. But...

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall [...]
He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me [...]
As he walked toward the armory, Jon chanced to look up and saw Val standing in her tower window. I’m sorry, he thought. I’m not the man to steal you out of there.

He wanted Winterfell and a normal life, Val was just an added bonus. If he had REALLY wanted Val he would have accepted Stannis offer in a heartbeat regardless of his feeling about the whole thing, just so he could be with her. He didn´t. It was more important to him if Winterfell was Stannis to give, his other siblings that he didn´t want to bypass and to burn the godswood.

Again, people seem to see romance where there is none. I get that things change, but all this seems to be based on very, very little. I know few women exist at the wall and that people want Jon to find a partner, but this Jon/Val foreshadowing seems to be very weak if all these very loose quotes is the best that exist. And in comparison to other ladies, we have (a pretty strong I would say) reason why Jon might not be romantically inclined. Apart from, I don´t know, that they have spent a lot of time together and very little sexual has happened or been hinted.

[Therae]

37 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

He wanted Winterfell and a normal life, Val was just an added bonus.

I agree.

It really seemed that what was tempting him so was the opportunity to be the Lord of Winterfell and to have legitimate children (especially that). All I got from his musings was that Val wasn't a deal-breaker, and maybe they would work out well enough, but she wasn't what he was really after.

Quote

...though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier.

SoS, Jon XII