Will Jon marry Val?

[Nevets]

I doubt Jon will marry Val.  If Jon marries anyone (officially, that is), it will be for political advantage.  Politically, Val offers him little or nothing.  (Also, she doesn't seem the type to insist on a proper marriage ceremony)  One of the main purposes of a political marriage is to bind the parties together.  Jon and the wildlings are about as tightly bound together as they can be.  He is letting large numbers across the wall, to settle in the Gift, and is incorporating them into the Night's Watch.  He is the best friend friend they've got, and they know it (or should).  On the other hand, his fellow Watchmen and the Northerners are uneasy at best about this.  Therefore, if Jon winds up ruling the North, he is likely to need to marry a Northern girl.

Jon seems to be attracted to women that are like or remind him of Arya (Ygritte, Val).  Might I suggest Wylla Manderly.  She is feisty, brave, and not afraid to speak her mind.  She is also from the richest and most powerful family in the North.  Marrying her might help set the Northerners' minds at ease, and give them a point of influence on Jon.  I would also suggest Meera Reed, but I doubt her family is prominent enough to satisfy the Northerners, although I wouldn't b e surprised if something happened between them.  Of ciourse, if Jon winds up on the IT, then all bets are off.  I have no idea who would be best in that case.  I have doubts he will marry a family member (either by upbringing or blood), but I don't who else might be available

[The Fattest Leech]

6 hours ago, Nevets said:

I doubt Jon will marry Val.  If Jon marries anyone (officially, that is), it will be for political advantage.

Exactly. And that is why a union between the tens of thousands of free folk will help both sides of this equation.

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 Politically, Val offers him little or nothing.

Not true. So far, every highborn person, male and female, that is around Val seems to think she will fit right in at a typical southron court. She is, at this moment, a package deal with Winterfell. That is pretty big. And Jon and Val having been married will assure an alliance, and more importanlty good behavior, from the free folk.

That said, there still are some crazed "bad" wildlings out there, but as Val tells in the story, they have just as many "bad" guys as does the south- there is not much difference between the two regions (a favorite theme of our die hard hippy author).

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 (Also, she doesn't seem the type to insist on a proper marriage ceremony) 

Why would they need one? They are already married according to free folk custom, and if Jon is king in the end (not so sure about this) then he can just declare Val his wife by the laws of the old gods.

The chance that the current political system, and all the old men that go along with it (per the books), will be in exact tact after the Others arrive and hoards of wights and Dothraki come through is not likely to happen. Those big giants waking form earth (earthquakes?) that are promised are going to shake things up

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One of the main purposes of a political marriage is to bind the parties together.  

Exactly. And for the remaining houses south of the wall to have any faith that the new free folk will be loyal vassals, those houses will need to see a political marriage. (If they still exist because Long Night and all).

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Jon and the wildlings are about as tightly bound together as they can be.  He is letting large numbers across the wall, to settle in the Gift, and is incorporating them into the Night's Watch.  He is the best friend friend they've got, and they know it (or should).  On the other hand, his fellow Watchmen and the Northerners are uneasy at best about this.  Therefore, if Jon winds up ruling the North, he is likely to need to marry a Northern girl.

True, true, true. And what better northern girl than one that thousands already are loyal to and have chosen on their own (per their tradition). Many of these free folk will need to be kept inline and will do so when shown the example by someone they trust who is also in charge.

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Jon seems to be attracted to women that are like or remind him of Arya (Ygritte, Val).

Almost. Jon seems attracted to the "wild wolf" type of personality, kind of a sad homage to his unknown to him mother. As George described in an SSM, he is comfortable with Arya because that is what he knows and grew up with.

Also, the other thing with Val and her hauty ways seems to align with the free folk way of thinking. Jon stole Val already, but they have not bedded each other, and according to free folk custom, a woman is expected to put up a fight every step of the way in stealing. After a bedding, then things are different.

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 Might I suggest Wylla Manderly.  

I think she would be an awesome second choice for Jon. No doubt. I loved her from the start.

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She is feisty, brave, and not afraid to speak her mind.  She is also from the richest and most powerful family in the North.

The north in general is not as rich as other kingdoms, but within the northern houses, yeah, Manderly was a rich house. But that could have changed already.

In AFFC/Cersei, we learn that because of the thrones debts, the Iron Bank is calling in all debts from the houses of Westeros and the bank is refusing any new loans. Then in ADWD/Davos, when he gets to White Harbor he sees the three ships that are like the ones the IB uses from Braavos. The wars and Manderly having to build all of the warships seems to be taking a toll on that house (even with the use of Umber wood). Who knows what the debts they have look like?

A Dance with Dragons - Davos II

The dockside wharves were swarming. A clutter of small boats were tied up along the fish market, off-loading their catches. He saw three river runners too, long lean boats built tough to brave the swift currents and rocky shoots of the White Knife. It was the seagoing vessels that interested him most, however; a pair of carracks as drab and tattered as the Merry Midwife, the trading galley Storm Dancer, the cogs Brave Magister and Horn of Plenty, a galleas from Braavos marked by her purple hull and sails …

… and there beyond, the warship.

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV

"Some do, my lord. On the day their guest departs."

"Perhaps you understand, then." Wyman Manderly lurched ponderously to his feet. "I have been building warships for more than a year. Some you saw, but there are as many more hidden up the White Knife. Even with the losses I have suffered, I still command more heavy horse than any other lord north of the Neck. My walls are strong, and my vaults are full of silver. Oldcastle and Widow's Watch will take their lead from me. My bannermen include a dozen petty lords and a hundred landed knights. I can deliver King Stannis the allegiance of all the lands east of the White Knife, from Widow's Watch and Ramsgate to the Sheepshead Hills and the headwaters of the Broken Branch. All this I pledge to do if you will meet my price."

 

Another thing that was laid out for the readers is the many skills the free folk have. There are ones who weave, and make armor, and work metals, and they know how to build to a degree... all skills that will be needed after a frozen invasion. Gold and silver won't fill a belly or keep you warm, but survival skills will.

 

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 Marrying her might help set the Northerners' minds at ease, and give them a point of influence on Jon.

This would happen with Val, who everyone insists is a princess. These thousands of new people will obey who they choose as a leader. They already chose Jon by way of paying homage as they passed through the gate, and some even knelt to him, and the free folk already knelt to Val. They won't do this to a southron ruler who was forced upon them. Kneeling may take a generation or two to change (that I acknowledge).

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 I would also suggest Meera Reed, but I doubt her family is prominent enough to satisfy the Northerners,

True. I think they could be compatible and I have seen others mention this as well.

Also, if southron houses think Jon is a bastard, would they follow him? This seems to be part of the fan contention as to why Jon could never sit the throne. He is a bastard and no one can prove otherwise, and/or, Jon was disinherited via Rhaegar's disinheritance anyway. Oh, and that Dany with the dragons thing.

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although I wouldn't b e surprised if something happened between them.

How? When? They have never even seen each other and don't seem to be scheduled to do so anytime soon. There are only two books left and not enough time at their respective plots pace with a few major battles taking place first.

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 Of ciourse, if Jon winds up on the IT, then all bets are off.  I have no idea who would be best in that case.

Totally agree here. I doubt the iron throne will still be standing by the end. Chances are a lot of Westerosi priorities are going to be put into perspective in the near future. Like the stupid idea that a bastard does not have any value because of his birth station. It is a good thing that free folk don't care about that already

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 I have doubts he will marry a family member (either by upbringing or blood), but I don't who else might be available

Pickings could be slim.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 17/4/2017 at 7:42 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

One of Jon's last thoughts before the mutiny stabbing was the safety of Val. Even after all of the adult taunts and teases and flirting, he still is concerned about her in the end.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me. Then he heard the shouting … and a roar so loud it seemed to shake the Wall. "That come from Hardin's Tower, m'lord," Horse reported. He might have said more, but the scream cut him off.

Val, was Jon's first thought. But that was no woman's scream. That is a man in mortal agony. He broke into a run. Horse and Rory raced after him. "Is it wights?" asked Rory. Jon wondered. Could his corpses have escaped their chains?

I had never seen that before. I think that it belongs to the compendium.

On 16/4/2017 at 5:37 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

One of the members, Jon's/Doctor's Consort I believe, has some great threads about why it's possible. I don't see how Jon could stomach marrying Sansa as she ignored him his whole life and looks like the women who refused to show him any compassion growing up. If he had to marry a Stark I believe he'd choose Arya over Sansa seeing as Arya actually cared about him. However if Jon is half Stark and half Targaryen then him marrying someone else from another House would make more sense politically. When it comes to Daenerys who knows, she might want to marry him to secure her claim or she might want to kill him.

Thank you for that. If anyone wants to see more this is the latest thread 

 

[The Exiled Septa]

I wish he married her but since she is been cut from the show I don't think she will be his wife and if they were to end up together it would have happened when Stannis offered him Val and Winterfell. It would be a little bit tiring if Jon after denying marrying her ends up with her later on.Well actually scratch that I wouldn't find it very tiring I love them together and when Jon was with Val or when he was thinking of her he had some strong emotions there(those were the only scenes that I actually liked Jon there I said it).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

13 minutes ago, Valedina said:

but since she is been cut from the show I don't think she will be his wife

Tv series =/= book series.

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

As I said in another thread I find it strange when people try to dismiss Val as some sort of background character when she has been Jon's right hand women since she came to the Wall. She's helped Jon out a lot and Ghost seems to really like her, that speaks volumes within itself.

[snow is the man]

Well we don't "know" that jon and dany are related in the books do we? I personally think jons story will end with him being free of vows and not having leadership. Just him actually enjoying life. Although if he married VAL it would mean vows so...

[snow is the man]

Also I never understood where people got the sansa/Jon relationship from. She treated him like garbage or just ignored him completly from what we know. And jon has never shown any real love towards her. Besides talking about her being in winterfell with stannis I don't think he really mentions her after book one. And arya is not one I understood either. I mean they were both close for sure but I think it was because they were both the "outcasts" of the family for lack of a better term. Also they just got along in a brother sister way. I think people looked into him seeing ygritte as arya or that they looked slightly similar for a minute. It could be that as far as we know arya was the only girl who didn't treat him as "the bastard".

[Lord Wraith]

23 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Tv series =/= book series.

 

Should be the motto of this subforum.

[Vaedys Targaryen]

On 18/4/2017 at 4:59 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Exactly. And that is why a union between the tens of thousands of free folk will help both sides of this equation.

Not true. So far, every highborn person, male and female, that is around Val seems to think she will fit right in at a typical southron court. She is, at this moment, a package deal with Winterfell. That is pretty big. And Jon and Val having been married will assure an alliance, and more importanlty good behavior, from the free folk.

That said, there still are some crazed "bad" wildlings out there, but as Val tells in the story, they have just as many "bad" guys as does the south- there is not much difference between the two regions (a favorite theme of our die hard hippy author).

Why would they need one? They are already married according to free folk custom, and if Jon is king in the end (not so sure about this) then he can just declare Val his wife by the laws of the old gods.

The chance that the current political system, and all the old men that go along with it (per the books), will be in exact tact after the Others arrive and hoards of wights and Dothraki come through is not likely to happen. Those big giants waking form earth (earthquakes?) that are promised are going to shake things up

Exactly. And for the remaining houses south of the wall to have any faith that the new free folk will be loyal vassals, those houses will need to see a political marriage. (If they still exist because Long Night and all).

True, true, true. And what better northern girl than one that thousands already are loyal to and have chosen on their own (per their tradition). Many of these free folk will need to be kept inline and will do so when shown the example by someone they trust who is also in charge.

Almost. Jon seems attracted to the "wild wolf" type of personality, kind of a sad homage to his unknown to him mother. As George described in an SSM, he is comfortable with Arya because that is what he knows and grew up with.

Also, the other thing with Val and her hauty ways seems to align with the free folk way of thinking. Jon stole Val already, but they have not bedded each other, and according to free folk custom, a woman is expected to put up a fight every step of the way in stealing. After a bedding, then things are different.

I think she would be an awesome second choice for Jon. No doubt. I loved her from the start.

The north in general is not as rich as other kingdoms, but within the northern houses, yeah, Manderly was a rich house. But that could have changed already.

In AFFC/Cersei, we learn that because of the thrones debts, the Iron Bank is calling in all debts from the houses of Westeros and the bank is refusing any new loans. Then in ADWD/Davos, when he gets to White Harbor he sees the three ships that are like the ones the IB uses from Braavos. The wars and Manderly having to build all of the warships seems to be taking a toll on that house (even with the use of Umber wood). Who knows what the debts they have look like?

A Dance with Dragons - Davos II

The dockside wharves were swarming. A clutter of small boats were tied up along the fish market, off-loading their catches. He saw three river runners too, long lean boats built tough to brave the swift currents and rocky shoots of the White Knife. It was the seagoing vessels that interested him most, however; a pair of carracks as drab and tattered as the Merry Midwife, the trading galley Storm Dancer, the cogs Brave Magister and Horn of Plenty, a galleas from Braavos marked by her purple hull and sails …

… and there beyond, the warship.

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV

"Some do, my lord. On the day their guest departs."

"Perhaps you understand, then." Wyman Manderly lurched ponderously to his feet. "I have been building warships for more than a year. Some you saw, but there are as many more hidden up the White Knife. Even with the losses I have suffered, I still command more heavy horse than any other lord north of the Neck. My walls are strong, and my vaults are full of silver. Oldcastle and Widow's Watch will take their lead from me. My bannermen include a dozen petty lords and a hundred landed knights. I can deliver King Stannis the allegiance of all the lands east of the White Knife, from Widow's Watch and Ramsgate to the Sheepshead Hills and the headwaters of the Broken Branch. All this I pledge to do if you will meet my price."

 

Another thing that was laid out for the readers is the many skills the free folk have. There are ones who weave, and make armor, and work metals, and they know how to build to a degree... all skills that will be needed after a frozen invasion. Gold and silver won't fill a belly or keep you warm, but survival skills will.

 

This would happen with Val, who everyone insists is a princess. These thousands of new people will obey who they choose as a leader. They already chose Jon by way of paying homage as they passed through the gate, and some even knelt to him, and the free folk already knelt to Val. They won't do this to a southron ruler who was forced upon them. Kneeling may take a generation or two to change (that I acknowledge).

True. I think they could be compatible and I have seen others mention this as well.

Also, if southron houses think Jon is a bastard, would they follow him? This seems to be part of the fan contention as to why Jon could never sit the throne. He is a bastard and no one can prove otherwise, and/or, Jon was disinherited via Rhaegar's disinheritance anyway. Oh, and that Dany with the dragons thing.

How? When? They have never even seen each other and don't seem to be scheduled to do so anytime soon. There are only two books left and not enough time at their respective plots pace with a few major battles taking place first.

Totally agree here. I doubt the iron throne will still be standing by the end. Chances are a lot of Westerosi priorities are going to be put into perspective in the near future. Like the stupid idea that a bastard does not have any value because of his birth station. It is a good thing that free folk don't care about that already

Pickings could be slim.

Something that I think you misunderstand about the "Jon needs to marry a northern woman, not a wildling" point is that should Jon decide to marry Val and have children with her, the alliance/peace will be temporary.

The Free Folk/wildlings follow whomever they want and usually choose them based on their strenght. Jon has allowed the Free Folk through the Wall and into the Gift, which could be cause for them to give him their allegiance and have him as their leader and if you've read up on the theory that Val is like a priestess of the Old Gods, she could garner a lot support for him.

But the problem is that the Free Folk are a minority. If the northern lords disapprove of Jon marrying a wildling, the Free Folk would have very few means to fend them off as I get the impression that a lot of the Free Folk who could fight were killed in the Battle of Castle Black, which would diminish their numbers (there is also the issue with that, as Jon stated, they are very undisciplined, and "discipline defeats raw strenght every time"). If Jon is to be lord of Winterfell and King in the North, he has to have the support of the northern lords, so he has to marry at least one of their daughters (where, as stated, Wylla Manderly is a good marriage match because of the Manderly wealth).

There is also huge cultural differences between the Northerners and Free Folk, which will inevitably lead to fighting, as the Free Folk will have a difficult time accepting officially being under a king and having to kneel to him and the Northerners will be forcing the Free Folk to bend the knee or they will kill them (they would most likely kill the men and make the women their wives, though).

 

But even if Jon marries Val and everything is somehow okay, do remember that just because the Free Folk follow Jon and Val, that does not mean that they will follow their children. If their children are weak and cannot rule, the Free Folk will abandon them and will most likely break into different tribes under different leaders and fights all over the North are going to happen. When they finally decide to head further south, that will most likely be the end of them, as the Free Folk are not particularily technologically advanced and will most likely be defeated by the southerners.

[The Fattest Leech]

12 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Something that I think you misunderstand about the "Jon needs to marry a northern woman, not a wildling" point is that should Jon decide to marry Val and have children with her, the alliance/peace will be temporary.

I do agree with this to an extent. I am not so sure that in the end-end Jon will have made any children of his own. He might not be able to, but that could be why George gave him and Val the Monster. Jon has promised to take of that baby as Ned did (whether Jon knows it by the end or not). 

Plus, Jon has already married a free folk dude to a noble northern girl. And there are book hints that possibly the Umbers, Flints and Mormonts have dabbled with the folk as well  This won't be such a shock to culture as it seems. 

The chance that Westeros will be the same after this Long Night/Others/Euronext/??? attacks and decimates so much is pretty big. Who knows what will be standing in the end- and not just castles and such, but what type of rule and which customs, etc. 

I agree that there are different scenarios that we just don't know for sure yet, but so far a union and new blood to rebuild society seems important. And the free folk/ first men follow who they chose. 

I do think Jon won't make it in the very end, which is partially the reason why I don't think he is dead-dead now. This seems to be a favorite theme in George's books. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

The Free Folk are irrelevant. They number maybe 4000 souls on this side of the Wall, with most remaining on the other side doomed to die. Let's say another 10,000 makes it south of the Wall. That makes the total Free Folk numbers under 20k in the end.

What purpose does that serve Jon? That's 20k people in total. Take out old people, women and children, and you are left with maybe 2000 able bodied males. That would be like Jon marrying some Skagosi chieftain's daughter to gain the allegiance of Skagos.

So yes, I really like Val, and prefer her to any of the other likely options Jon might have in the foreseeable future. But if he marries her, it won't be to gain the Free Folk's allegiance. Because their allegiance does not matter. They are too few.

EDIT

I must admit I was disappointed when Martin gave us the big spectacle of the Free Folk marching through the Wall in an endless line that took all day. It was beautiful and impressive. I expected Marsh's count to reach at least 20,000 by the end, to make the event meaningful. When he reached less than 3500, well, it was a massive anti-climax. All of that effort for such a paltry number of survivors. Not really worth the pages spent on it.

[The Fattest Leech]

(Sorry for the broken up responses. I'm at work ) 

And now that I think about it, George puts Bran and Rickon with the old gods following, first men free folk as well. Why would that be if it were for nothing? 

And even though Arya and Sansa are not in the north, they still have old gods symbols around them most of the time. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

21 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I do agree with this to an extent. I am not so sure that in the end-end Jon will have made any children of his own. He might not be able to, but that could be why George gave him and Val the Monster. Jon has promised to take of that baby as Ned did (whether Jon knows it by the end or not). 

Plus, Jon has already married a free folk dude to a noble northern girl. And there are book hints that possibly the Umbers, Flints and Mormonts have dabbled with the folk as well  This won't be such a shock to culture as it seems. 

The chance that Westeros will be the same after this Long Night/Others/Euronext/??? attacks and decimates so much is pretty big. Who knows what will be standing in the end- and not just castles and such, but what type of rule and which customs, etc. 

I agree that there are different scenarios that we just don't know for sure yet, but so far a union and new blood to rebuild society seems important. And the free folk/ first men follow who they chose. 

I do think Jon won't make it in the very end, which is partially the reason why I don't think he is dead-dead now. This seems to be a favorite theme in George's books. 

I think the opposite. I think Jon will actually make it in the end. And that Daenerys will be the one to die, sacrificing herself in some noble deed.

Jon's theme has been to develop into the dutiful ruler, while Dany's has been to develop into the fiery conqueror. She will conquer, but Jon will get the tedious job of ruling justly. Something all his experiences have prepared him for. He will be the "Aragorn having to struggle with tax policies", which Martin famously said was never focused on by Tolkien.

[The Fattest Leech]

11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think the opposite. I think Jon will actually make it in the end. And that Daenerys will be the one to die, sacrificing herself in some noble deed.

Jon's theme has been to develop into the dutiful ruler, while Dany's has been to develop into the fiery conqueror. She will conquer, but Jon will get the tedious job of ruling justly. Something all his experiences have prepared him for. He will be the "Aragorn having to struggle with tax policies", which Martin famously said was never focused on by Tolkien.

I guess really I don't see either "hero" making it past ADOS. I could very well be wrong because I do like your idea here and I do agree that Jon has been set up to rule, not just conquer. I guess part of it is that I can't get past my thoughts that the iron throne won't be standing in the end and whenever a Stark goes south and tries to tries to pass judgement or laws, they all die  But maybe that is where Jon's dragon blood will balance that out??? 

(I HATE WORK!) 

[crowcrow]

On April 26, 2017 at 2:42 PM, Lord Wraith said:

Should be the motto of this subforum.

Same

[crowcrow]

On April 16, 2017 at 7:53 AM, KarlDanski said:

I doubt he would marry Arya, he sees her as more of a sister than even Sansa, and they would still be half-siblings which is still disgusting. Daenerys would basically be his aunt which is a nono too. Marrying Val would unite him even more so with the Free Folk, and it makes sense as she is the only non-blood related eligible "noble" lady in Westeros that could be considering something of a great house. He could marry a lower house like Mormont, Manderly etc, but I don't see it. Marrying Val would bring over even more free folk soldiers to him if he didn't already have them due to how they respect him, it would help him take back the North, but this is tinfoil, and this is assuming he lives, and that's what his plot is going to be.

He sees BOTH of them as his sisters actually. They were raised thinking their siblings. Just because they were not as close does not mean Jon is likely to bang Sansa. Sansa was not particularly close with her other brothers too you know?

[crowcrow]

On April 25, 2017 at 3:22 PM, Valedina said:

I wish he married her but since she is been cut from the show I don't think she will be his wife and if they were to end up together it would have happened when Stannis offered him Val and Winterfell. It would be a little bit tiring if Jon after denying marrying her ends up with her later on.Well actually scratch that I wouldn't find it very tiring I love them together and when Jon was with Val or when he was thinking of her he had some strong emotions there(those were the only scenes that I actually liked Jon there I said it).

Listen bud, if there is one thing i've learned from the show, then its the fact that the show is a poorly written fan fiction with big budget on small screen. and that's pretty much it. The show doesn't even follow the books anymore. They might have similar endings but I'm sure that the differences will be HUGE.

[Bonkers]

I love the image of Val with that crown (bronze was it? old style) on her head looking more regal than Stannis when they burned Rattleshirt. Makes me think she has more to her, as Jon also notices her eyes shift colour in different light and moods...much like Ned's and his own.  I don't believe the idea that they are related directly but they seem to have a connection through Ghost.  Like Arya, she is more wild than lady. 

Seems to me there will be an issue with Val and Jon the other way around.  She was impressed by her giant for a guard, and Jon did technically steal her 'wildling fashion' - he could have killed her like he could have killed Ygritte.  I think Val will expect Jon to be hers and perhaps when Dany enters as a possible suitor, things will get messy.  MAYBE, just maybe, Dany tries to prove herself but her fire resistance fails this time and she kills both her and Val..... I remain haunted by the post Tyrion TLannister posted ..

 

[The Fattest Leech]

7 minutes ago, RevaM said:

Listen bud, if there is one thing i've learned from the show, then its the fact that the show is a poorly written fan fiction with big budget on small screen. and that's pretty much it. The show doesn't even follow the books anymore. They might have similar endings but I'm sure that the differences will be HUGE.

Sing it! And in addition to this, the character development totally misses the point of the ones they have kept.