Why do Northmen fight so well?

[KarlDanski]

You've seen in both the books, and tv show, the Northmen characters fight more ferociously, and are more fierce than their southern cousins. In almost any case, the Northmen who are usually outnumbered are able to defeat a larger force even though they're usually only armored with chainmail, leather etc. An example is the "Winter Wolves", a group of 2000 mounted Northmen led by Roderick "the Ruin" Dustin who in one battle charged Lannister spear men 5 times, losing 2/3 of his force to injury or death. In another battle, he along with the Northern remnants, and Riverrun allies charged an enemy that outnumbered them 10 to 1, and managed to kill Lord Ormund Hightower, and Ser Bryndon Hightower, before dying.

Other examples are listed below:

Battle of the Green Fork : The first Northern battle, they lost the most that they ever had, losing 5000 soldiers while the Lannisters are reported to have lost less, this may of been an early power play of Roose Bolton as many important heirs/lords were captured or killed in the battle like Halys Hornwood, Donnel Locke, Harrion Karstark, Medger Cerwyn, and Wylis Manderly.

Battle of Whispering Wood : 6000 Northmen/Rivermen killed 2250 Lannisters while only losing around 200.

Battle of the Camps : 6000 Northmen/Rivermen destroyed the Lannister only, killing 8000 Lannisters while only suffering non-significant casualties.

Battle of Oxcross : 6000 Northmen/Rivermen destroyed a Lannister host at Oxcross, scattering the entire force, and killing Stafford Lannister while suffering non-significant casualties.

Battle of Duskendale : 3000 Northmen inflict heavy casualties on Randyll Tarly, and Gregor Cleganes forces while only losing around 1100 men.

Fighting at the Fords of the Trident : 2000 of a 6100 Northmen force are killed crossing a ford while under the command of Roose Bolton, inflicting unknown casualties. May of been a power play by Roose Bolton as the only houses to lose men were Norrey, Locke, Manderly, and Burley.

Red Wedding : Not much of a battle, but Stark forces managed to inflict 50 casualties despite being unarmed, unarmored, maybe drunk, and generally caught off guard.

Anyways, this is just a short list of battles that Northern forces partook in where they inflicted more casualties despite having less numbers, worse armor, and weapons. In the Animated Shorts of GoT, it's said that while the First Men in general had less quality weapons/armor/horse, they were much more fierce than the Andals in general, and that's where the strength came from. Does it come from the First Men blood or does the Wildling attacks make them stronger despite not everyone being in Umberland to witness raids, and gain experience from fighting them. I don't know, just wondering, because Desmond, a Stark guard says a Northmen is worth 10 southern swords, despite dying to 1 Lannister, and the Ironborn have the same general theme.

[Dorian Martell's son]

anabolic steroids give them extra strength, chewing khat gives them extra energy and a combination of PCP and opioid medication makes them immune to pain. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

I thought the entire Duskendale force was killed. Otherwise where would they be? Roose left Harrenhal shortly after the battle and killed off the rest of the non-Bolton infantry at the Ruby Ford.

[Adam Yozza]

Harsh lands breed hard men. I'm not a believer in the Northern Master Race, but I do believe the environment plays a factor. The harsh weather and terrain of the North just generally breeds tougher men than their southron counterparts. This, combined with the fact that martial prowess is the most highly respected quality in the North (among the nobility at least) makes them quite formidable fighters.

While Floki is right in saying that the Duskendale force was entirely wiped out (whether in the battle itself or hunted down in skirmishes afterward), Glover and Tallhart inflicting heavy casualties implies equal or higher losses for the Lannister-Tyrell forces in  a battle were they had numerical and tactical advantages, so it's impressive nonetheless.

[KarlDanski]

Sorry, I messed up. At least 1000 Northmen were killed, the others were captured along with Harrion Karstark, and Robett Glover. Helman Tallhart was killed during the battle. Still though. A force that was most likely outnumbered, and was caught off guard, as they were sent into a trap by Roose Bolton, and still managing to inflict heavy casualties.

[KarlDanski]

Strength
possibly ~3,000 men[1]	unknown
Casualties
at least 1,000 Robett Glover (captured) Ser Helman Tallhart† Harrion Karstark (captured)	reported "heavy"

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 hour ago, KarlDanski said:

Battle of Whispering Wood : 6000 Northmen/Rivermen killed 2250 Lannisters while only losing around 200.

Battle of the Camps : 6000 Northmen/Rivermen destroyed the Lannister only, killing 8000 Lannisters while only suffering non-significant casualties.

Battle of Oxcross : 6000 Northmen/Rivermen destroyed a Lannister host at Oxcross, scattering the entire force, and killing Stafford Lannister while suffering non-significant casualties.

All these had the element of surprise and can probably be put down to the shock tactics and superior generalship of Robb/Blackfish.

 

[Tralalala]

24 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Harsh lands breed hard men. I'm not a believer in the Northern Master Race, but I do believe the environment plays a factor. The harsh weather and terrain of the North just generally breeds tougher men than their southron counterparts. This, combined with the fact that martial prowess is the most highly respected quality in the North (among the nobility at least) makes them quite formidable fighters.

To me that pure bullshit,harsh lands breed normal people and nothing extraordinary.

As for their wins and losses that controlled by the author and in story by the commander and simple uck...

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ironically, Martin has portrayed few, if any, individual Northmen as elite fighters. The only current generation Northman that may make the top 10 individual warriors of Westeros list is maybe Greatjon Umber. We don't know what part of Westeros Quorin Halfhand is from, so I don't count him, and Mance isn't a Northman, so I don't count him either.

Mostly, Northmen are portrayed as practical, get down to business fighters who are neither particularly skilled nor particularly unskilled. I don't think they display any particular superiority as far as fighting skill is concerned. As I have said before, however, I do believe there is an area where the Northmen are superior - and that translates into an advantage in war. It is not in fighting skill. But rather, in hardiness. Meaning being accustomed to physical hardship.

As a result, we see them quite adaptable to harsh terrain, harsh conditions, forced marches and the like, which allows the Northern commanders to make use of surprise tactics and increased mobility as a result. Also as a result, when they are confronted with misfortune, such as at the Green Fork or Duskendale, the Northmen have a kind of grim embrace of fate, and still go down fighting.

Just in terms of Duskendale, you are correct that they did not lose the bulk of their men there, but the survivors were hounded further by other southron forces until most were wiped out after Duskendale, in their attempts to retreat and rejoin with Roose's main force.

Anyway, so in short. No, the North doesn't have better fighters than the South. But they do appear to have hardier troops, which gives their commanders more tactical options during a time of war.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

6 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Ironically, Martin has portrayed few, if any, individual Northmen as elite fighters.

I'd put Jorah Mormont pretty high up there to be fair. He won a tourney and killed Qotho, who seems to be Drogo's most dangerous bloodrider.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Just now, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I'd put Jorah Mormont pretty high up there to be fair. He won a tourney and killed Qotho, who seems to be Drogo's most dangerous bloodrider.

Jorah was nothing special by Westerosi standards. Not nearly in Barristan's class. He is a good fighter. But never mentioned by Jaime for example in the same way that he mentions the Greatjon as a formiddable opponent along with the Mountain, the Hound, Robert Baratheon and Arthur Dayne.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

But never mentioned by Jaime for example in the same way that he mentions the Greatjon as a formiddable opponent along with the Mountain, the Hound, Robert Baratheon and Arthur Dayne.

Jaime's specifically talking about who's stronger than him though. The fact that Jorah defeats a Dothraki bloodrider I would say puts him in the top tier. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Jaime's specifically talking about who's stronger than him though. The fact that Jorah defeats a Dothraki bloodrider I would say puts him in the top tier. 

Not so.

In all of the references to great fighters made by various characters in the story, not one mentions Jorah in that category. Neither does Martin himself, when he lists some examples of top tier fighters. A Dothraki bloodrider is likely not in the category of an elite pit fighter such as the one dispatched by the elderly Barristan with relative ease. Meanwhile, Jorah took a wound in defeating Qotho, or whatever his name was.

 

[Adam Yozza]

28 minutes ago, Tralalala said:

To me that pure bullshit,harsh lands breed normal people and nothing extraordinary.

As for their wins and losses that controlled by the author and in story by the commander and simple uck...

I didn't say extraordinary. Free Northman probably worded it better than I did, but I meant pretty much the same thing. They are more used to harsh conditions and physical hardship than the south and thus have an edge of hardiness over them. It's not that they're generally better fighters (though they have some good fighters among them to be sure, just like any other Kingdom) but rather that they are a bit hardier. Plus they appear to have a 'go down swinging' mentality that other regions tend to lack. The only time a Northern force retreats is after the Green Fork and that was a controlled and planned withdrawal. By contrast, at Duskendale they stood their ground and inflicting heavy losses on a foe that was superior in every way. On the other hand, Stannis' army, the Riverlords and the force at Oxcross have all been shown to break and run when the odds are against them and that's just using examples from the main books.

[Orphalesion]

Like Free Northman Reborn said, the North doesn't strike me as inherently better fighters. If anything they are just like Russia in some ways; lots of empty, barren land and harsh winters that can overwhelm an invading force through sheer attrition. Then there's also the fact that they have a giant swamp at their border populated by crocodiles and magical Crannogmen that protects them.

Their fighting skill doesn't seem to be better than those of the people south og the Neck, look at how many of Robb's men it took to capture Jaime. And how many Karstarks in particular.

They are simply more used to horrible conditions and so have an easier time surviving in them, on average.

Just now, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Jaime's specifically talking about who's stronger than him though. The fact that Jorah defeats a Dothraki bloodrider I would say puts him in the top tier. 

Eh.... my impression on the Dothraki is that they are pretty much just pure force and strength. So a horde of Dothraki is a problem but a single one, I speculate could be overwhelmed by any decently skilled fighter. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In all of the references to great fighters made by various characters in the story, not one mentions Jorah in that category.

He's been away for a while to be fair, I doubt many people in Westros even remember him. 

 

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

A Dothraki bloodrider is likely not in the category of an elite pit fighter such as the one dispatched by the elderly Barristan with relative ease.

Why not? They're amongst the top fighters in a warrior culture where fights to the death are a regular feature of life. I'd probably rate the average Dothraki warrior above the average Westrosi knight.

[Orphalesion]

Just now, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Why not? They're amongst the top fighters in a warrior culture where fights to the death are a regular feature of life. I'd probably rate the average Dothraki warrior above the average Westrosi knight.

Because their only strategy in battle seems to be "run at the opponent, screaming"

So as a horde they are deadly, but single combat is quite different. They'd probably still fell a lot of people because of strength and psychological impact, but a competent fighter who manages to keep his wits and use any sort of tactic... I think someone like that would beat a Dothraki more often than the other way around.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

3 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Because their only strategy in battle seems to be "run at the opponent, screaming"

There's no evidence for this. 

[Adam Yozza]

11 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Jaime's specifically talking about who's stronger than him though. The fact that Jorah defeats a Dothraki bloodrider I would say puts him in the top tier. 

Jorah's above average, I'd say. A third tier, not top. The top spots belong to Jaime and Barristan with very few others making it into their league, maybe Garlan based on what we've heard. 

Jorah's accomplishment's aren't actually that impressive compared to others. Wearing armour he defeated an unarmoured opponent who was using a weapon completely unsuited to fighting armour and still managed to take a wound doing it. Defeating Jaime at Lannisport in equally useless because it's jousting, and he didn't actually beat Jaime anyway. His only real achievement is being one of the first to engage the enemy at Pyke and living to tell about it; which is impressive, admittedly.

[Trigger Warning]

Jorah is entirely on the back foot in that fight, 

" Qotho danced backward, arakh whirling around his head in a shining blur, flickering out like lightning as the knight came on in a rush. Ser Jorah parried as best he could, but the slashes came so fast that it seemed to Dany that Qotho had four arakhs and as many arms. She heard the crunch of sword on mail, saw sparks fly as the long curved blade glanced off a gauntlet. Suddenly it was Mormont stumbling backward, and Qotho leaping to the attack. "

He only wins when Qotho's deals a potential lethal blow. 

" The curved blade slipped past the straight one and bit deep into the knight’s hip where the mail gaped open."

Not really evidence for being some brilliant fighter, he's at least competent enough to parry some of the blows which for a knight that spends their entire life practising I wouldn't say is too impressive.