One-eyed Misbehavin

Lord of Bones kicking Jons butt

60 posts in this topic

 You said the reason why Mance is Arthur is because he bested Jon. Iron Emmett has bested Jon over and over at Castle Black. Point being beating Jon Snow does not make you one of the greatest swordsman in Westeros.

Mance was happy to get a weapon back in his hands after being held a prisoner so that makes him Arthur Dayne? So with your rational anyone who fights well with a great sword could possibly be Arthur Dayne? 

Sandor Clegane beating Beric Dondarrion while Beric used a flaming sword was way more impressive then Mance beating Jon Snow in a sparring match. Sandor's biggest fear is fire so Sandor being able to kill Beric, an accomplished Knight, while he used a flaming sword against him in much more impressive in my opinion.

Even Brienne beating Jamie Lannister is more impressive. Even if Jamie had been held prisoner as long as he had and was at an extreme disadvantage. Beating two handed Jamie Lannister while he's at 50% is a bigger accomplishment then beating Jon Snow. As Jamie was the best swordsman alive at the start of the books.

 

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Re: Mance Rayder being Arthur Dayne - No. The watch knows the whole history of Mance Rayder, from his wildling birth and being adopted by the Night's Watch to his becoming a ranger, to his eventual defection. And Mance confirms this.

Arthur Dayne was killed in the final duel with Eddard Stark at the Tower of Joy.

Spoiler

Per the show, Dayne was backstabbed by the frog eater, Howland Reed, in order to save Ned.

Let him rest in peace. Of more interest is the location of Dawn, and who currently has custody (apparently, nobody is yet good enough to wield it.) And no, it wasn't "melted down" and made into Ice. The appearance of Dawn, a strange white blade made from "a falling star", looks nothing at all like many-times-folded Valyrian steel, and Westeros doesn't have the technology to melt&pour steel - smiths would heat the metal to where it could be worked, and then pound on it for literally days at a time.

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2 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Point being beating Jon Snow does not make you one of the greatest swordsman in Westeros.

Yeah! And Lord Snow is a mere 16 or 17; he's really good with a sword when compared with the farm boys and big city cutpurses, but he's got a long way to go compared to seasoned swordsmen. Jon knows it.

I agree with you about Sandor Clegane, but Jaime v Brienne had Jaime at such a disadvantage that it's not a fair measure of Brienne's ability. Remember, his hands were chained together. He was greatly weakened by his long captivity. And yet, the two seemed pretty closely matched...

Spoiler

unlike in the show, where Brienne keeps Jaime at bay easily, with a bored look.

 

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16 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I don't think Mance needs a excuse to kick Jon's ass after he betrayed him and stole his baby. 

"Stole his baby"? Seriously?? Jon protected Dalla and Mance's baby as she gave birth, the battle raging all around and Jon on the other side. Jon protected Mance's baby and Mance's goodsister Val after the battle. And, by sending Mance's baby away with Maester Aemon and Samwell to Oldtown, he kept it safe from Melisandre's fires. Mance is smart enough to have seen this. He's also smart enough to know that Jon didn't actually have much choice.

5 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Who is the best fighter in asoiaf that wields a two handed sword? Le Arthur Dayne.

Well, Ned Stark was no slouch, either. Perhaps a fake mummer-style head (actually a melon!!) was cut off him on the steps of Baelor's, and Ned actually WAS sent to the Wall, according to the original plan! Then he defected and made himself King of the (Very Far) North!! Sure, why not? And his son Jon would never have recognized him in skins instead of more lordly garb, right?

A fair number of Westerosi are good - even great - with the greatsword: Gregor Clegane, Randyll Tarley, to name a couple. Ser Illyn is probably pretty competent, for that matter. It would make sense for a wildling-born like Mance to fight with a two-handed sword, as they don't seem to have very good shield technology, and it's one less thing to drag around.

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11 hours ago, zandru said:

Yeah! And Lord Snow is a mere 16 or 17; he's really good with a sword when compared with the farm boys and big city cutpurses, but he's got a long way to go compared to seasoned swordsmen. Jon knows it.

I agree with you about Sandor Clegane, but Jaime v Brienne had Jaime at such a disadvantage that it's not a fair measure of Brienne's ability. Remember, his hands were chained together. He was greatly weakened by his long captivity. And yet, the two seemed pretty closely matched...

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unlike in the show, where Brienne keeps Jaime at bay easily, with a bored look.

 

I agree, I forgot Jaime's hands were also chained together. If he keeps both hands AND gets the VS sword Tywin got for him he might have been unstoppable in single's combat.

I totally agree about your hidden comment, It's ridiculous. 

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 You said the reason why Mance is Arthur is because he bested Jon. Iron Emmett has bested Jon over and over at Castle Black. Point being beating Jon Snow does not make you one of the greatest swordsman in Westeros.

IMO Iron Emmett has not bested Jon over and over, in fact I would go so far to say that in a real battle Jon is amazingly underrated on this board and would comfortably account for Iron Emmett. The only text we have to support either stance is from the training session that was described...
 

Quote

 

Iron Emmett was a long, lanky young ranger whose endurance, strength, and swordsmanship were the pride of Eastwatch. Jon always came away from their sessions stiff and sore, and woke the next day covered with bruises, which was just the way he wanted it. He would never get any better going up against the likes of Satin and Horse, or even Grenn.

Most days he gave as good as he got, Jon liked to think, but not today. He had hardly slept last night, and after an hour of restless tossing he had given up even the attempt, dressed, and walked the top of the Wall till the sun came up, wrestling with Stannis Baratheon's offer. The lack of sleep was catching up with him now, and Emmett was hammering him mercilessly across the yard, driving him back on his heels with one long looping cut after another, and slamming him with his shield from time to time for good measure. Jon's arm had gone numb from the shock of impact, and the edgeless practice sword seemed to be growing heavier with every passing moment.

He was almost ready to lower his blade and call a halt when Emmett feinted low and came in over his shield with a savage forehand slash that caught Jon on the temple. He staggered, his helm and head both ringing from the force of the blow. For half a heartbeat the world beyond his eyeslit was a blur.

And then the years were gone, and he was back at Winterfell once more, wearing a quilted leather coat in place of mail and plate. His sword was made of wood, and it was Robb who stood facing him, not Iron Emmett.

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he'd taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. "Jon, enough," Halder was shouting, "he's down, you disarmed him. Enough!"

No. Not enough. Never enough. Jon let his sword drop. "I'm sorry," he muttered. "Emmett, are you hurt?"

Iron Emmett pulled his battered helm off. "Was there some part of yield you could not comprehend, Lord Snow?" It was said amiably, though. Emmett was an amiable man, and he loved the song of swords. "Warrior defend me," he groaned, "now I know how Qhorin Halfhand must have felt."


 

From this description it is clear that Jon is initially distracted. He takes a wound while thinking about something else, at that stage he loses himself in memories and forgets that he is training. When this happens he doesn't hold back and he simply obliterates Iron Emmett. There are other examples of when Jon is angry his full strength comes through. Also it should be noted that Jon is very modest. If he thinks he usually gives as good as he gets, then he does, or better.

I personally respect the way he modestly downplays himself and strives to improve.

As for his fight against Mance, I think Mances motivations are driven by grudging respect of Jon and his actions and honour, especially towards the free folk, while still disliking the fact he was betrayed and fell for the betrayal. He wants to test him but he also wants to smack him around a little. Mance united the free folk by beating everyone north of wall, it's hard to say exactly what sort of feet this is, but he does prove he is at the very least competent, and I think he is also extremely confident.

Also note the fight wasn't completely one sided...

Quote

 

Iron Emmett's fledglings cheered their lord commander at the start, but the relentless speed of Rattleshirt's attack soon beat them down to silence. He cannot keep this up for long, Jon told himself as he stopped another blow. The impact made him grunt. Even dulled, the greatsword cracked his pinewood shield and bent the iron rim. He will tire soon. He must. Jon slashed at the wildling's face, and Rattleshirt pulled back his head. He hacked down at Rattleshirt's calf, only to have him deftly leap the blade. The greatsword crashed down onto Jon's shoulder, hard enough to ding his pouldron and numb the arm beneath. Jon backed away. The Lord of Bones came after, chortling. He has no shield, Jon reminded himself, and that monster sword's too cumbersome for parries. I should be landing two blows for every one of his.

Somehow he wasn't, though, and the blows he did land were having no effect. The wildling always seemed to be moving away or sliding sideways, so Jon's longsword glanced off a shoulder or an arm. Before long he found himself giving more ground, trying to avoid the other's crashing cuts and failing half the time. His shield had been reduced to kindling. He shook it off his arm. Sweat was running down his face and stinging his eyes beneath his helm. He is too strong and too quick, he realized, and with that greatsword he has weight and reach on me. It would have been a different fight if Jon had been armed with Longclaw, but …

His chance came on Rattleshirt's next backswing. Jon threw himself forward, bulling into the other man, and they went down together, legs entangled. Steel slammed on steel. Both men lost their swords as they rolled on the hard ground. The wildling drove a knee between Jon's legs. Jon lashed out with a mailed fist. Somehow Rattleshirt ended up on top, with Jon's head in his hands. He smashed it against the ground, then wrenched his visor open. "If I had me a dagger, you'd be less an eye by now," he snarled, before Horse and Iron Emmett dragged him off the lord commander's chest. "Let go o' me, you bloody crows," he roared.

 

...even though he was outclassed, he still got into a situation where he managed to get into a grapple situation. I have no doubt that if Jon was angry instead of puzzled and contemplative during the fight, he would have won, probably quite easily.

Edited by Makk

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5 minutes ago, Makk said:

IMO Iron Emmett has not bested Jon over and over, in fact I would go so far to say that in a real battle Jon is amazingly underrated on this board and would comfortably account for Iron Emmett. The only text we have to support either stance is from the training session that was described...


Iron Emmett was a long, lanky young ranger whose endurance, strength, and swordsmanship were the pride of Eastwatch. Jon always came away from their sessions stiff and sore, and woke the next day covered with bruises, which was just the way he wanted it. He would never get any better going up against the likes of Satin and Horse, or even Grenn.

Most days he gave as good as he got, Jon liked to think, but not today. He had hardly slept last night, and after an hour of restless tossing he had given up even the attempt, dressed, and walked the top of the Wall till the sun came up, wrestling with Stannis Baratheon's offer. The lack of sleep was catching up with him now, and Emmett was hammering him mercilessly across the yard, driving him back on his heels with one long looping cut after another, and slamming him with his shield from time to time for good measure. Jon's arm had gone numb from the shock of impact, and the edgeless practice sword seemed to be growing heavier with every passing moment.

He was almost ready to lower his blade and call a halt when Emmett feinted low and came in over his shield with a savage forehand slash that caught Jon on the temple. He staggered, his helm and head both ringing from the force of the blow. For half a heartbeat the world beyond his eyeslit was a blur.

And then the years were gone, and he was back at Winterfell once more, wearing a quilted leather coat in place of mail and plate. His sword was made of wood, and it was Robb who stood facing him, not Iron Emmett.

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he'd taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. "Jon, enough," Halder was shouting, "he's down, you disarmed him. Enough!"

No. Not enough. Never enough. Jon let his sword drop. "I'm sorry," he muttered. "Emmett, are you hurt?"

Iron Emmett pulled his battered helm off. "Was there some part of yield you could not comprehend, Lord Snow?" It was said amiably, though. Emmett was an amiable man, and he loved the song of swords. "Warrior defend me," he groaned, "now I know how Qhorin Halfhand must have felt."

From this description it is clear that Jon is initially distracted. He takes a wound while thinking about something else, at that stage he loses himself in memories and forgets that he is training. When this happens he doesn't hold back and he simply obliterates Iron Emmett. There are other examples of when Jon is angry his full strength comes through. Also it should be noted that Jon is very modest. If he thinks he usually gives as good as he gets, then he does, or better.

I personally respect the way he modestly downplays himself and strives to improve.

As for his fight against Mance, I think Mances motivations are driven by grudging respect of Jon and his actions and honour, especially towards the free folk, while still disliking the fact he was betrayed and fell for the betrayal. He wants to test him but he also wants to smack him around a little. Mance united the free folk by beating everyone north of wall, it's hard to say exactly what sort of feet this is, but he does prove he is at the very least competent, and I think he is also extremely confident.

Also note the fight wasn't completely one sided...

Iron Emmett's fledglings cheered their lord commander at the start, but the relentless speed of Rattleshirt's attack soon beat them down to silence. He cannot keep this up for long, Jon told himself as he stopped another blow. The impact made him grunt. Even dulled, the greatsword cracked his pinewood shield and bent the iron rim. He will tire soon. He must. Jon slashed at the wildling's face, and Rattleshirt pulled back his head. He hacked down at Rattleshirt's calf, only to have him deftly leap the blade. The greatsword crashed down onto Jon's shoulder, hard enough to ding his pouldron and numb the arm beneath. Jon backed away. The Lord of Bones came after, chortling. He has no shield, Jon reminded himself, and that monster sword's too cumbersome for parries. I should be landing two blows for every one of his.

Somehow he wasn't, though, and the blows he did land were having no effect. The wildling always seemed to be moving away or sliding sideways, so Jon's longsword glanced off a shoulder or an arm. Before long he found himself giving more ground, trying to avoid the other's crashing cuts and failing half the time. His shield had been reduced to kindling. He shook it off his arm. Sweat was running down his face and stinging his eyes beneath his helm. He is too strong and too quick, he realized, and with that greatsword he has weight and reach on me. It would have been a different fight if Jon had been armed with Longclaw, but …

His chance came on Rattleshirt's next backswing. Jon threw himself forward, bulling into the other man, and they went down together, legs entangled. Steel slammed on steel. Both men lost their swords as they rolled on the hard ground. The wildling drove a knee between Jon's legs. Jon lashed out with a mailed fist. Somehow Rattleshirt ended up on top, with Jon's head in his hands. He smashed it against the ground, then wrenched his visor open. "If I had me a dagger, you'd be less an eye by now," he snarled, before Horse and Iron Emmett dragged him off the lord commander's chest. "Let go o' me, you bloody crows," he roared.

...even though he was outclassed, he still got into a situation where he managed to get into a grapple situation. I have no doubt that if Jon was angry instead of puzzled and contemplative during the fight, he would have won, probably quite easily.

 

When Emmett goes to Castle Black for the election he trains with Jon Snow and is able to best his future Lord Commander in several training sessions

So when Jon and Emmett are both treating their sparring session as a sparring session Emmett gets the better of Jon and knocks Jon senseless and if it had been a real fight Emmett would have finished him off. Instead Jon takes advantage of the fact Emmett lowers his guard after Emmett knocks Jon senseless and Jon goes after Emmett like it's a real fight. Emmett still treating it like a sparring session yields to Jon when he sees Jon's not in his right mind.

What if Emmett did not hold back and he went at Jon like it was a real fight? Jon would have been dead after he was knocked silly. However since Emmett is Jon's friend and an amiable man he treated it like the sparring session it was but Jon didn't.

Let's be generous and say Jon is at Iron Emmett's level, it makes him one of the best in the Night's Watch not the realm. Could Jon improves if he comes back and be a great swordsman? Maybe, Maybe not.

 

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Is there any indication in the text that Mance/Rattleshirt was getting assistance from Melisandre?

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2 hours ago, jthurman14 said:

Is there any indication in the text that Mance/Rattleshirt was getting assistance from Melisandre?

Help fighting or Glaumoring? I'm confused. 

Mance doesn't need help fighting Jon

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14 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

When Emmett goes to Castle Black for the election he trains with Jon Snow and is able to best his future Lord Commander in several training sessions

So when Jon and Emmett are both treating their sparring session as a sparring session Emmett gets the better of Jon and knocks Jon senseless and if it had been a real fight Emmett would have finished him off. Instead Jon takes advantage of the fact Emmett lowers his guard after Emmett knocks Jon senseless and Jon goes after Emmett like it's a real fight. Emmett still treating it like a sparring session yields to Jon when he sees Jon's not in his right mind.

What if Emmett did not hold back and he went at Jon like it was a real fight? Jon would have been dead after he was knocked silly. However since Emmett is Jon's friend and an amiable man he treated it like the sparring session it was but Jon didn't.

Let's be generous and say Jon is at Iron Emmett's level, it makes him one of the best in the Night's Watch not the realm. Could Jon improves if he comes back and be a great swordsman? Maybe, Maybe not.

 

It wouldn't have killed Jon. Jon is LC someone would stop the fight before he's killed sparring but otherwise I completely agree. 

 

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15 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

When Emmett goes to Castle Black for the election he trains with Jon Snow and is able to best his future Lord Commander in several training sessions

Where is the text? Can people please provide a quote when making these statements, you may well be correct but I don't recall reading this and so often I find the text does not support what they are saying.

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16 hours ago, Makk said:

IMO Iron Emmett has not bested Jon over and over, in fact I would go so far to say that in a real battle Jon is amazingly underrated on this board and would comfortably account for Iron Emmett. The only text we have to support either stance is from the training session that was described...
 

From this description it is clear that Jon is initially distracted. He takes a wound while thinking about something else, at that stage he loses himself in memories and forgets that he is training. When this happens he doesn't hold back and he simply obliterates Iron Emmett. There are other examples of when Jon is angry his full strength comes through. Also it should be noted that Jon is very modest. If he thinks he usually gives as good as he gets, then he does, or better.

I personally respect the way he modestly downplays himself and strives to improve.

As for his fight against Mance, I think Mances motivations are driven by grudging respect of Jon and his actions and honour, especially towards the free folk, while still disliking the fact he was betrayed and fell for the betrayal. He wants to test him but he also wants to smack him around a little. Mance united the free folk by beating everyone north of wall, it's hard to say exactly what sort of feet this is, but he does prove he is at the very least competent, and I think he is also extremely confident.

Also note the fight wasn't completely one sided...

...even though he was outclassed, he still got into a situation where he managed to get into a grapple situation. I have no doubt that if Jon was angry instead of puzzled and contemplative during the fight, he would have won, probably quite easily.

Never heard take up for Jon's abilities so much honestly but I can see your points. Very nice. Jon pulling that stake? Pole? Was another example of strength while furious 

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On 16/04/2017 at 9:56 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I agree with the idea that Mance was testing Jon. Mance knows the watch, he knew Qhorin, and he probably has an idea about Jon in the future and wanted to see for himself. There is also this that seems to show Mance was testing the Snowy One and also giving a glimpse (or hint) that he was being glamoured:

  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

    In the King's Tower, Jon was stripped of his weapons and admitted to the royal presence. The solar was hot and crowded. Stannis and his captains were gathered over the map of the north. The wrong-way rangers were amongst them. Sigorn was there as well, the young Magnar of Thenn, clad in a leather hauberk sewn with bronze scales. Rattleshirt sat scratching at the manacle on his wrist with a cracked yellow fingernail. Brown stubble covered his sunken cheeks and receding chin, and strands of dirty hair hung across his eyes. "Here he comes," he said when he saw Jon, "the brave boy who slew Mance Rayder when he was caged and bound." The big square-cut gem that adorned his iron cuff glimmered redly. "Do you like my ruby, Snow? A token o' love from Lady Red."
and then at the kicking ass fight you can see that Mance was testing Jon without any intent to cause real harm:

 

  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

His chance came on Rattleshirt's next backswing. Jon threw himself forward, bulling into the other man, and they went down together, legs entangled. Steel slammed on steel. Both men lost their swords as they rolled on the hard ground. The wildling drove a knee between Jon's legs. Jon lashed out with a mailed fist. Somehow Rattleshirt ended up on top, with Jon's head in his hands. He smashed it against the ground, then wrenched his visor open. "If I had me a dagger, you'd be less an eye by now," he snarled, before Horse and Iron Emmett dragged him off the lord commander's chest. "Let go o' me, you bloody crows," he roared.
Jon struggled to one knee. His head was ringing, and his mouth was full of blood. He spat it out and said, "Well fought."
"You flatter yourself, crow. I never broke a sweat."
"Next time you will," said Jon. Dolorous Edd helped him to his feet and unbuckled his helm. It had acquired several deep dents that had not been there when he'd donned it. "Release him." Jon tossed the helm to Hop-Robin, who dropped it.
"My lord," said Iron Emmett, "he threatened your life, we all heard. He said that if he had a dagger—"
"He does have a dagger. Right there on his belt." There is always someone quicker and stronger, Ser Rodrik had once told Jon and Robb. He's the man you want to face in the yard before you need to face his like upon a battlefield.

Good for Jon that Stannis arrived at the "H" hour with the cavalry (literally). If Jon tried to murder Mance, Ghost wouldn't be there to help...

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5 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Never heard take up for Jon's abilities so much honestly but I can see your points. Very nice. Jon pulling that stake? Pole? Was another example of strength while furious 

Yes. He also lifted Thorne clear off the ground by the throat which is a significant display of strength.

Quote

 

Slynt purpled. "Murder? You insolent pup. King Robert was not even cold when Lord Eddard moved against his son." He rose to his feet; a shorter man than Mormont, but thick about the chest and arms, with a gut to match. A small gold spear tipped with red enamel pinned his cloak at the shoulder. "Your father died by the sword, but he was highborn, a King's Hand. For you, a noose will serve. Ser Alliser, take this turncloak to an ice cell."

"My lord is wise." Ser Alliser seized Jon by the arm.

Jon yanked away and grabbed the knight by the throat with such ferocity that he lifted him off the floor. He would have throttled him if the Eastwatch men had not pulled him off. Thorne staggered back, rubbing the marks Jon's fingers had left on his neck. "You see for yourselves, brothers. The boy is a wildling."

 

 

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"The map is not the land, my father often said. Men have lived in the high valleys and mountain meadows for thousands of years, ruled by their clan chiefs. Petty lords, you would call them, though they do not use such titles amongst themselves. Clan champions fight with huge two-handed greatswords, while the common men sling stones and batter one another with staffs of mountain ash. A quarrelsome folk, it must be said. When they are not fighting one another, they tend their herds, fish the Bay of Ice, and breed the hardiest mounts you'll ever ride."

Instead of being Arthur Dayne (the hottest new tinfoil) mayhaps Mance has some connection to the Mountain Clans. Between the trade and the Wildlings stealing women its possible that he was descended from a kidnapped daughter of the clans??

Also are there any other groups that are noted to wield greatswords?

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20 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Help fighting or Glaumoring? I'm confused. 

Mance doesn't need help fighting Jon

Help in fighting. I do not recall anything in the text that directly says Mance is a super badass. sure he could have beaten Jon, but to do it so well raises suspicion in my opinion.  Did he get more from Mel than the glamour?  Like a magical PED?

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14 hours ago, Makk said:

Yes. He also lifted Thorne clear off the ground by the throat which is a significant display of strength.

 

Darn it I thought I included that. But yes very significant. In fact Thorne could weigh 150 lbs and it would be impressive for a 14-15 yr old.

One of the best moments in any book. Especially at the time 

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1 hour ago, jthurman14 said:

Help in fighting. I do not recall anything in the text that directly says Mance is a super badass. sure he could have beaten Jon, but to do it so well raises suspicion in my opinion.  Did he get more from Mel than the glamour?  Like a magical PED?

But Mance was #1 sword in the night's watch (maybe Qhorin) and then beat every wildling "champion" and/or submitted many different people. He's a proven badass no doubt. I'll try to find some quotes 

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13 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Instead of being Arthur Dayne (the hottest new tinfoil) mayhaps Mance has some connection to the Mountain Clans. Between the trade and the Wildlings stealing women its possible that he was descended from a kidnapped daughter of the clans??

Also are there any other groups that are noted to wield greatswords?

Nice catch on the clan champions and 2 handed sword. Mance might not have used a 2 hand sword until he abandoned the Night's Watch. He'd definitely have to go by each group's "fighting traditions" until he had enough men. No doubt in my mind he just used the big sword and defeated champ after champ. Seems easy and a way to get loyal followers bc they look up to you for you'r prowess fighting.

(by the way I believe Varamyr either joined late or Mance had enough people to take him on.)

 

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