One-eyed Misbehavin

Lord of Bones kicking Jons butt

60 posts in this topic

On 4/16/2017 at 5:32 PM, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Note how "Mance" reacted when picking up the two handed sword he requested and how he completely destroyed Jon who is a great swordsman without even trying. Who else could do that other than Arthur Dayne. There is a lot other than this to support this theory.

also, if you rearrange the letters Mance Rayder = Racer M Dayne

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This is a scene of great significance, in my view. It seems clear foreshadowing of a future confrontation, where Jon will meet Mance again, but this time in a battle to the death. This was one reason why I seriously considered Mance as a willing participant in the writing of the Pink Letter. That he had made a deal with Ramsay against Jon and that this would come to a head in some kind of battle between the two.

This does not quite feel right, however, as Mance does seem to be a protagonist rather than antagonist in this story. So it may be that the battle with Mance was needed to prepare Jon for a battle against another superior foe in future. Not sure who that would be, though.

But I think this scene laid the groundwork for something significant in the future plot. It wasn't just a random fight scene to simply break the monotony.

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12 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

This is a scene of great significance, in my view. It seems clear foreshadowing of a future confrontation, where Jon will meet Mance again, but this time in a battle to the death. This was one reason why I seriously considered Mance as a willing participant in the writing of the Pink Letter. That he had made a deal with Ramsay against Jon and that this would come to a head in some kind of battle between the two.

This does not quite feel right, however, as Mance does seem to be a protagonist rather than antagonist in this story. So it may be that the battle with Mance was needed to prepare Jon for a battle against another superior foe in future. Not sure who that would be, though.

But I think this scene laid the groundwork for something significant in the future plot. It wasn't just a random fight scene to simply break the monotony.

Well Mance is the hero of his own story. He is a man trying trying to save his people from the threat of the Others. Why would he care about the Starks/ Boltons or really anyone south of the Wall?

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Just now, Lord Wraith said:

Well Mance is the hero of his own story. He is a man trying trying to save his people from the threat of the Others. Why would he care about the Starks/ Boltons or really anyone south of the Wall?

Indeed. Hence my initial theory that he actually hates Jon Snow (for some very good reasons) and saw a deal with the Boltons as a great way to allow his people to settle south of the Wall, for the small price of betraying Jon, who betrayed him in the first place in any case.

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Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

Indeed. Hence my initial theory that he actually hates Jon Snow (for some very good reasons) and saw a deal with the Boltons as a great way to allow his people to settle south of the Wall, for the small price of betraying Jon, who betrayed him in the first place in any case.

Turnabout is fair play.

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2 hours ago, myhalfgroat said:

also, if you rearrange the letters Mance Rayder = Racer M Dayne

Wow i didn't think of the letters good pickup!

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On 2017-4-17 at 0:41 AM, Coolbeard the Exile said:

He is Arthur Dayne.

These crackpot theories make me sad. We know Mance’s history from birth until now, at what point did Arthur Dayne kill the real Mance and take his place, and how did nobody notice?

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On Jon's skill level, I think Martin is going to try and portray Jon's skill level as somewhat more realistic than the likes of Jaime Lannister or Arthur Dayne, but it will just so happen that he manages to win every important fight that matters, by some bit of luck or happenstance or sudden act of superhuman strength or what have you.

The point is, Martin wants to create the illusion that his heroes are vulnerable, and that fights are unpredictable, with peril involved in every engagement. And yet, we know Jon's fate is not to die in some battle just because he is facing a superior swordsman. At least not unless it is some final climax in which he "sheathes the sword" in Lan fashion in order to take the superior opponent with him.

 

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4 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

These crackpot theories make me sad. We know Mance’s history from birth until now, at what point did Arthur Dayne kill the real Mance and take his place, and how did nobody notice?

 

 

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5 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

These crackpot theories make me sad. We know Mance’s history from birth until now, at what point did Arthur Dayne kill the real Mance and take his place, and how did nobody notice?

Since I only have seen one *theory* like that I think that I know who created it and I have to say that what they have done to Tormund is even worse.

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Oh great. Now Mance is Arthur Dayne. I guess I returned to the board too soon.

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We need Winds. The theories here are getting ridiculous.

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8 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Since I only have seen one *theory* like that I think that I know who created it and I have to say that what they have done to Tormund is even worse.

I would have thought it was the Val one that you thought was worst. I admit that one really came out of left field and makes no sense.

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7 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I would have thought it was the Val one that you thought was worst. I admit that one really came out of left field and makes no sense.

It is but since the post I had quoted was about Mance I had to comment about Tormund.

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Posted (edited)

I know most people don't care to read the books on a literary level, and that this thread is about the literal fight between Jon Snow and Mance-glamored-as-Rattleshirt. But I hate to see people team up to disagree with someone passionate about a theory or to deride someone as a troll, so here's my two cents from a literary perspective:

1) I do not believe that Mance Rayder IS Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne.

2) I do believe that GRRM regularly creates characters and plotlines as echoes of legendary figures and/or Westeros mythology and/or characters elsewhere in this generation of characters. He does this to delight readers because it allows him to tease us with hints about future plot twists and we don't even know that we're looking at foreshadowing.

3) Mance is an echo character, possibly of Rhaegar; possibly Bael the Bard; possibly of Aegon the Conqueror. He is not literally those people but, on a literary level, he represents them or alludes to them.

4) Rattleshirt is also an echo character. I haven't seen a lot of discussion of him, but a few months ago it occurred to me that he is a symbolic version of Ned Stark. Literary explanation: We know that Ned has been reduced to a bunch of bones. I think this came up in a thread by @sweetsunray where she tried to figure out the location of Ned's bones and theorized that they might have gone back to steps of the Great Sept of Baelor, where they were piled around the base of the Baelor the Blessed statue along with other bones. Since there is a possible connection between Bael the Bard and Baelor the Blessed (along with, I suspect, Petyr Baelish), the bones of Ned and another manifestation of the Mance character came together in that theory. At Castle Black, we have The Lord of Bones and Mance come together in a different way, through the magic of Melisandre's ruby.

5) The author has also drawn mysterious connections between Ned and Arthur Dayne. They are not literally the same person imho, but there are these weird similarities - Ned's possible love affair with Arthur's sister or Arthur's possible love affair with Ned's sister, fabled greatswords, legendary reputations. It is not a coincidence that a person in this forum might see a symbolic Ned character as a symbolic Arthur character.

6) Like the bones at the statue of Baelor, the glamor ruby has created a Mance / Rattleshirt hybrid. Because both of those characters represent other important characters - I would put the emphasis on Rhaegar and Ned - Jon is figuratively battling both of his father figures when Mance-glamored-as-Rattleshirt fights him. The son battling the father (or grandfather) is a common archetype in world literature.

But the similarities between Ned and Arthur Dayne might have put the idea of Arthur Dayne in someone's mind, so it's really not completely off the wall (so to speak) to wonder whether it was an Arthur / Jon fight. In a way, symbolically, it was.

Before people reply, there is no need to tell me that GRRM doesn't put symbolism in his books. I realize that many readers prefer to enjoy the plot alone and find that their brains hurt if they have to think about deeper meaning. Just ignore this post and move on if you prefer not to think about symbolism.

Edited by Seams
Finished an incomplete sentence.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I know most people don't care to read the books on a literary level, and that this thread is about the literal fight between Jon Snow and Mance-glamored-as-Rattleshirt. But I hate to see people team up to disagree with someone passionate about a theory or to deride someone as a troll, so here's my two cents from a literary perspective:

1) I do not believe that Mance Rayder IS Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne.

2) I do believe that GRRM regularly creates characters and plotlines as echoes of legendary figures and/or Westeros mythology and/or characters elsewhere in this generation of characters. He does this to delight readers because it allows him to tease us with hints about future plot twists and we don't even know that we're looking at foreshadowing.

3) Mance is an echo character, possibly to Rhaegar; possibly Bael the Bard; possibly for Aegon the Conqueror. He is not literally those people but, on a literary level, he represents them or alludes to them.

4) Rattleshirt is also an echo character. I haven't seen a lot of discussion of him, but a few months ago it occurred to me that he is a symbolic version of Ned Stark. Literary explanation: We know that Ned has been reduced to a bunch of bones. I think this came up in a thread by @sweetsunray where she tried to figure out the location of Ned's bones and theorized that they might have gone back to steps of the Great Sept of Baelor, where they were piled around the base of the Baelor the Blessed statue along with other bones. Since there is a possible connection between Bael the Bard and Baelor the Blessed (along with, I suspect, Petyr Baelish), the bones of Ned and another manifestation of the Mance character came together in that theory. At Castle Black, we have The Lord of Bones and Mance come together in a different way, through the magic of Melisandre's ruby.

5) The author has also drawn mysterious connections between Ned and Arthur Dayne. They are not literally the same person imho, but there are these weird similarities - Ned's possible love affair with Arthur's sister or Arthur's possible love affair with Ned's sister, fabled greatswords, legendary reputations. It is not a coincidence that

6) Like the bones at the statue of Baelor, the glamor ruby has created a Mance / Rattleshirt hybrid. Because both of those characters represent other important characters - I would put the emphasis on Rhaegar and Ned - Jon is figuratively battling both of his father figures when Mance-glamored-as-Rattleshirt fights him. The son battling the father (or grandfather) is a common archetype in world literature.

But the similarities between Ned and Arthur Dayne might have put the idea of Arthur Dayne in someone's mind, so it's really not completely off the wall (so to speak) to wonder whether it was an Arthur / Jon fight. In a way, symbolically, it was.

Before people reply, there is no need to tell me that GRRM doesn't put symbolism in his books. I realize that many readers prefer to enjoy the plot alone and find that their brains hurt if they have to think about deeper meaning. Just ignore this post and move on if you prefer not to think about symbolism.

This post had me up in arms, ready to come out firing with all sorts of rebuttals and refutations. But then I read your last paragraph, so I'll take your advice and move on from the post instead.

 

EDIT

Let me maybe just add that it is not correct to suggest that disagreeing with you equates to disagreeing that Martin puts symbolism in the books. Instead, it is merely that I think that the sybmolism you see in this particular instance, and in the other examples you mentioned above - is way off track.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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24 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

This post had me up in arms, ready to come out firing with all sorts of rebuttals and refutations. But then I read your last paragraph, so I'll take your advice and move on from the post instead.

EDIT

Let me maybe just add that it is not correct to suggest that disagreeing with you equates to disagreeing that Martin puts symbolism in the books. Instead, it is merely that I think that the sybmolism you see in this particular instance, and in the other examples you mentioned above - is way off track.

Well I'm okay with respectful disagreement. I just got tired of two-line rebuttals that said, essentially, "You're wrong because GRRM doesn't use symbolism in his books."

Since we don't know the details about the Ned-Arthur-Rhaegar backstory, I realize that there is a lot of conjecture in my post. I would welcome a discussion of alternative interpretations. I was just trying to fend off the wise undergrads who don't cite evidence but shoot from the hip and don't just respectfully disagree but instead tell me that I am flat out wrong. :)

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15 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

It is but since the post I had quoted was about Mance I had to comment about Tormund.

K

11 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

How did my beautiful thread end up inside the privy? 

Sorry...

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