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How does Braavos have giant navy?(SPOILERS ALL)


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How is Braavos able to have such a giant navy? I am not questioning their seafaring culture, originating from the slaves that sailed there, but how do they build the ships? Samwell Tarly in a chapter of FFC noted that firewood is so expensive because its illegal to cut down any trees around Braavos, as they serve for a buffer for storms. Additionally, if you look at the terrain map https://i1.wp.com/www.fantasticmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/FreeCities.jpg which is from the Lands of Ice and Fire itself, there are no major forests anywhere in the Braavosi coastlands(the large peninsula on which Braavos crowns) which is Braavos's only holdings. You could also count the Bay of Lorath because Braavos ignores Lorath's claims there, but, again, no trees. So how does Braavos get the wood necessary to build and maintain one of the mightiest fleets in the known world? 

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They probably import it from the Stormlands or North. Both areas are heavily forested, and the North is one of the closest regions to Braavos other than the Vale if the map I'm looking at it correct. Westeros and Braavos have more in common than the other Essosi and Braavos.

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6 hours ago, KarlDanski said:

They probably import it from the Stormlands or North. Both areas are heavily forested, and the North is one of the closest regions to Braavos other than the Vale if the map I'm looking at it correct. Westeros and Braavos have more in common than the other Essosi and Braavos.

Certainly true Karl, but what about the expense? To make a one-thousand ship fleet(which I think is what Braavos has) and them cranking out at least one new one every day on that small rock called the Arsenal, it just seems that it would require all of their ports to be solely dedicated to shipping wood to continue this. Not only the expense, but the practicality of shipping wood for ships via other ships continuously. 

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The map unfortunatly is not completly correct it also shows no forests around Norvos while we actually know from aWoIaF that there are many forests around it of pine, oak and beech.

As to the naval power they do not have a 1000 ships a single citie can not possibly maintain that many on a permanent basis. That is why they have the arsenal, it being able to build a ship a day is so they can in times of war quikly enlarge there fleet. There standard peacetime fleet is probably no bigger then one or two hundred.

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Bringing in lumber by ship is far more believable than bringing it overland from Norvos or Qohor. Ships can carry far more bulk goods, far more cheaply, than wagon trains can.

So the most likely source is indeed the North, which is listed as having lumber as an export good. As for the volumes required, I don't think it is unrealistic at all. Let's say Braavos has a fleet of 500 war galleys. How long does each galley last? 10 years? 20? So let's assume that 10% of the fleet is replaced every year. That means a mere 50 warships have to be built annually. Even if a fifth of the fleet is replaced every year, that's only 100 ships per year.

So, how much wood can a single cargo vessel transport in its hold? Enough to build one entire ship? I don't know, but I'd guess so. Volume is greater than surface area, after all. In that case, you just need 100 shiploads of wood per year to meet the construction needs.

And they'd probably transport more than that, to build up enough of a stockpile to do a ship a day, in a time of crisis.

I'm sure the North sells more than 100 shiploads of lumber per year. They certainly have enough of a supply to provide thousands of shiploads a year. I once calculated the number of trees in the Wolfswood. I  cannot remember what number I arrived it, but I believe we are talking upwards of 100,000 trees per square mile of forest. Meaning just in the Wolfswood (at about 100k square miles) you are talking 10 billion trees or more.

A better question is where the Ironborn get the wood to build their longships from. Because the North sure as hell isn't trading with them as far as we know. And you can't exactly go and "raid some trees" from some kingdom. It's not exactly a type of loot that you can grab quickly, rush to your ship and make a run for it before the cavalry arrives.

  

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Braavos is completely dependent on naval trade and naval warfare. The sea and control of the assets of the sea is what the wealth and power of Braavos is built on.

If they were dependent on lumber imports from regions they don't control they would be essentially done as a major political and economic power (which they are not - in fact, they seem to be the most powerful Free City right now). They might import certain woods that are no growing in the lands they control - which should be all the land between Braavos and Pentos/Lorath that's not claimed by the Pentoshi and the Lorathi - but it is not really believable that they have no access to wood on their own soil. Braavos is not just a city just as Pentos and Volantis are much more than that. But people like Arya and Sam who are stuck in Braavos don't see the hinterlands the Braavos control beyond their lagoon.

The Pentoshi lost their recent wars with Braavos, most likely resulting not only in Braavos forcing the Pentoshi to outlaw slavery but also in the Pentoshi ceding a lot of territory to the Braavosi.

The lands Braavos controls might be larger than the little tidbit about the Braavosian Coastlands seem to indicate.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Braavos is completely dependent on naval trade and naval warfare. The sea and control of the assets of the sea is what the wealth and power of Braavos is built on.

If they were dependent on lumber imports from regions they don't control they would be essentially done as a major political and economic power (which they are not - in fact, they seem to be the most powerful Free City right now). They might import certain woods that are no growing in the lands they control - which should be all the land between Braavos and Pentos/Lorath that's not claimed by the Pentoshi and the Lorathi - but it is not really believable that they have no access to wood on their own soil. Braavos is not just a city just as Pentos and Volantis are much more than that. But people like Arya and Sam who are stuck in Braavos don't see the hinterlands the Braavos control beyond their lagoon.

The Pentoshi lost their recent wars with Braavos, most likely resulting not only in Braavos forcing the Pentoshi to outlaw slavery but also in the Pentoshi ceding a lot of territory to the Braavosi.

The lands Braavos controls might be larger than the little tidbit about the Braavosian Coastlands seem to indicate.

Lord Varys

This is quite a good example of the type of absolute statement you like to make, portraying something as obvious or as a statement of fact simply because you believe it makes sense, but with no basis in fact. Here I'm talking about the specific statement from above, where you say that: "If they were dependent on lumber imports from regions they don't control they would be essentially done as a major political and economic power".

On what basis do you say that? It is most certainly NOT obvious or a statement of fact. Being reliant on a key import from say the North for the construction materials for their fleets in no way makes it impossible for them to be the dominant naval power that they are. What is an enemy going to do? Blockade the North? How would they do that, if Braavos has the most powerful fleet in the Narrow Sea. And even if they could, it's not like Braavos would suddenly collapse the moment they can't reach their primary source of lumber anymore.

And furthermore, they would not be reliant on just one source either. They could then resort to the Snakewood, or the Stormlands or even the inland cities of Qohor and Norvos if necessary. But in any case, if things get to the point where an enemy can blockade Braavos and prevent them from dominating the Narrow Sea with their navy, then Braavos has already lost, because their strength relies on naval dominance.

Also, the North is so vast, they could land in a hundred different spots along its coast to buy some wood.

In any case, it is stated as fact that Braavos does import lumber from the North. And through Arya we learn for a fact that there is a severe shortage of wood in general in Braavos, even the type of low quality leftover wood used to make fires with. So quality shipbuilding lumber would be in even greater demand. Hence the proven references to imports from the North.

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@Free Northman Reborn:

We have no reason to believe that the Braavosi import anything, least of all wood. A powerful economic and political power like Braavos which built up a powerful mercantile and military fleet out of essentially nothing while keeping its own port and location a secret for centuries wouldn't have been able to do that if they were dependent on anything.

If a foreign power were the (major) source of the building materials for the Braavosi ships then we would expect that this would be mentioned in the novels we read about since it would mean that Braavos was more involved in Westerosi affairs than it actually is up until this point. What we know is that the Iron Throne and other Westerosi are in debt to the Iron Bank (and have been in the past) while there is no hint that Braavos is not an entirely self-sufficient city-state. There is also no hint whatsoever that the Westerosi are exporting any raw materials to the Free Cities, Braavos included. None at all. The only goods that get routinely mentioned as being present in the Free Cities is Westerosi wine, from the Reach, the Arbor, and Dorne.

The rich and powerful people in the Free Cities are merchant princes and the like, the elite over there knows how to do business. The Westerosi nobility outside of Oldtown and the Arbor (and perhaps KL, Lannisport, and Gulltown) are basically living of the rents and goods their vassals and peasants pay them. They do not involve themselves in something as ridiculous and humiliating as trade. That's for the commoners. That is why Westeros is a primitive society with a very rigid and fixed feudal hierarchy while even poor rabble like Varys and Illyrio can climb to the top of the food chain in a city like Pentos while no commoner will ever become the king of Westeros.

The fact that poor foreigners like Samwell Tarly and company can't afford any firewood in a city in the middle of a lagoon is hardly surprising. It isn't exactly something that would be cheap or easy to come by in such a place. But there is no hint that the average Braavosi who actually earns a living cannot afford firewood.

Considering that we have seen quite a little bit of the North and Braavos both nothing indicates those two places have intricate trade relations of any sort. I'm not saying the Braavosi might not be interested to get some shipments of certain woods (like, say, weirwood) that would be prevalent in the North but that isn't the same as the Braavosi being dependent on such a trade. That would mean that George would actually have to mention those regular shipments of lumber going from White Harbor and elsewhere to Braavos, Robb's secession could have resulted in Braavos backing him during the War of the Five Kings (because of the trade relations between the North and Braavos) and a man like Tycho Nestoris would not only have shown up at the Wall to treat with Stannis but also the Northmen.

But nothing of that sort is ever mentioned.

We know less about the Stormlands and the Vale but the Stormlands outside Tarth and Estermont don't seem to have a great harbor to do trade and the Vale seems to be doing its major trade from Gulltown. They might have some trade relations with Braavos and other Free Cities but the way things stand it seems that the Free Cities and other Essosi cities are importing luxury goods to Westeros while Westeros has little and less to offer them (aside from gold of course, Lannisport is as large as it is simply because you can get a lot of gold there - that is why even people in Asshai know that place).

There is a reason why Corlys Velaryon became the richest man in the Seven Kingdoms after he made a single voyage to the Jade Sea. People in Westeros really crave exotic luxury goods while Westeros itself seems to be completely ignored by the grand nations and peoples of the East. There is a reason why Westeros isn't even on that ancient Valyrian map Xaro gives to Dany in ADwD.

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24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Free Northman Reborn:

We have no reason to believe that the Braavosi import anything, least of all wood. A powerful economic and political power like Braavos which built up a powerful mercantile and military fleet out of essentially nothing while keeping its own port and location a secret for centuries wouldn't have been able to do that if they were dependent on anything.

If a foreign power were the (major) source of the building materials for the Braavosi ships then we would expect that this would be mentioned in the novels we read about since it would mean that Braavos was more involved in Westerosi affairs than it actually is up until this point. What we know is that the Iron Throne and other Westerosi are in debt to the Iron Bank (and have been in the past) while there is no hint that Braavos is not an entirely self-sufficient city-state. There is also no hint whatsoever that the Westerosi are exporting any raw materials to the Free Cities, Braavos included. None at all. The only goods that get routinely mentioned as being present in the Free Cities is Westerosi wine, from the Reach, the Arbor, and Dorne.

The rich and powerful people in the Free Cities are merchant princes and the like, the elite over there knows how to do business. The Westerosi nobility outside of Oldtown and the Arbor (and perhaps KL, Lannisport, and Gulltown) are basically living of the rents and goods their vassals and peasants pay them. They do not involve themselves in something as ridiculous and humiliating as trade. That's for the commoners. That is why Westeros is a primitive society with a very rigid and fixed feudal hierarchy while even poor rabble like Varys and Illyrio can climb to the top of the food chain in a city like Pentos while no commoner will ever become the king of Westeros.

The fact that poor foreigners like Samwell Tarly and company can't afford any firewood in a city in the middle of a lagoon is hardly surprising. It isn't exactly something that would be cheap or easy to come by in such a place. But there is no hint that the average Braavosi who actually earns a living cannot afford firewood.

Considering that we have seen quite a little bit of the North and Braavos both nothing indicates those two places have intricate trade relations of any sort. I'm not saying the Braavosi might not be interested to get some shipments of certain woods (like, say, weirwood) that would be prevalent in the North but that isn't the same as the Braavosi being dependent on such a trade. That would mean that George would actually have to mention those regular shipments of lumber going from White Harbor and elsewhere to Braavos, Robb's secession could have resulted in Braavos backing him during the War of the Five Kings (because of the trade relations between the North and Braavos) and a man like Tycho Nestoris would not only have shown up at the Wall to treat with Stannis but also the Northmen.

But nothing of that sort is ever mentioned.

We know less about the Stormlands and the Vale but the Stormlands outside Tarth and Estermont don't seem to have a great harbor to do trade and the Vale seems to be doing its major trade from Gulltown. They might have some trade relations with Braavos and other Free Cities but the way things stand it seems that the Free Cities and other Essosi cities are importing luxury goods to Westeros while Westeros has little and less to offer them (aside from gold of course, Lannisport is as large as it is simply because you can get a lot of gold there - that is why even people in Asshai know that place).

There is a reason why Corlys Velaryon became the richest man in the Seven Kingdoms after he made a single voyage to the Jade Sea. People in Westeros really crave exotic luxury goods while Westeros itself seems to be completely ignored by the grand nations and peoples of the East. There is a reason why Westeros isn't even on that ancient Valyrian map Xaro gives to Dany in ADwD.

Mostly a pointless, rambling post focused on contrasting the sophisticated trade economies of the Free Cities with the feudal, land owner based medieval economy of Westeros. None of which deals with the issue at hand.

And the small part of the post that doesn't deal with this side issue, is littered with factual inaccuracies. We know of plenty of exports from Westeros to the Free Cities, else trade would not exist. Just from the North we know that beer is exported and fetches greater prices in the Free Cities than Arbor wines. Who do you think the North exports most of their lumber to if not Braavos? On the one side you have a massive supply of lumber, and on the other you have a massive demand for it. 

As for our POV characters pointing out that firewood is in short supply in Braavos, that is worldbuilding from Martin, not an attempt to depict our visitors as uniquely deprived of an otherwise plentiful commodity.

Also, you repeatedly over exxagerate issues in order to support sweeping statements without basis in fact. Like saying that Robb's war would have had Braavos support him to protect their precious source of lumber. As if lumber is something only found in the North and nowhere else. And as if a change in political leadership would suddenly end all trade between the two parties. Just like your  views that if the North was independent, suddenly no trading of food between the North and the South would be possible.

Your assertions are overly dramatic, and as I said before, lacking in a factual or logical basis. We have evidence that Braavos has a shortage of wood. We have evidence that the North has an abundance of wood. We have evidence that the North exports wood. Braavos is the closest Free City to the North. Supply and demand would dictate that a flourishing lumber trade exists between the two locations.

Again, don't over dramatize it, though. That doesn't mean that Braavos can't source wood from anywhere else. Wood can be found all over the world. It just means that the North is the closest, reliable source of large supplies of wood. So to buy 100 tons of wood from the North would be the most economically efficient means of achieving the equilibrium between supply and demand in this case. If, however, the North was suddenly "blockaded by giant kraken rising from the deep", or some such calamity, well, then Braavos would simply move to the next most economical source of the produce that they desire, and the equilibrium price between supply and demand would move slightly higher, (or perhaps significantly higher, depending on how expensive the new source turns out to be).

Simple as that.

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10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Mostly a pointless, rambling post focused on contrasting the sophisticated trade economies of the Free Cities with the feudal, land owner based medieval economy of Westeros. None of which deals with the issue at hand.

It indicates that there is not much international naval trade going on in Westeros outside some port cities and towns. Aside from White Harbor there is no place where Braavos could call on to buy wood in the North. And nothing indicates that they do, in fact.

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

And the small part of the post that doesn't deal with this side issue, is littered with factual inaccuracies. We know of plenty of exports from Westeros to the Free Cities, else trade would not exist. Just from the North we know that beer is exported and fetches greater prices in the Free Cities than Arbor wines.

There is certainly some oversea trade going on in the North but whether that's actual more than a trade between local merchants and privateers is completely unknown. Since neither the Starks nor the Manderlys (or other Lords in the North) have a fleet of trading ships we can safely say that whatever trade is going on is not controlled or conducted by the people in charge.

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Who do you think the North exports most of their lumber to if not Braavos? On the one side you have a massive supply of lumber, and on the other you have a massive demand for it. 

Nothing indicates that the North exports and lumber to Essos nor are there any hints that Braavos imports and lumber from Westeros.

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for our POV characters pointing out that firewood is in short supply in Braavos, that is worldbuilding from Martin, not an attempt to depict our visitors as uniquely deprived of an otherwise plentiful commodity.

Exactly. Firewood is a rare commodity for poor foreigners in Braavos. Because Braavos is a city in the middle of a lagoon and it is costly to get wood into that city. But this doesn't mean wood itself is hard to come by or even rare.

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Also, you repeatedly over exxagerate issues in order to support sweeping statements without basis in fact. Like saying that Robb's war would have had Braavos support him to protect their precious source of lumber. As if lumber is something only found in the North and nowhere else. And as if a change in political leadership would suddenly end all trade between the two parties. Just like your  views that if the North was independent, suddenly no trading of food between the North and the South would be possible.

I'm not saying trade would suddenly cease. I'm saying stuff like that would figure into the political and economical decision-making process. Economics and trade usually are (the most) important factors in a war.

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Your assertions are overly dramatic, and as I said before, lacking in a factual or logical basis. We have evidence that Braavos has a shortage of wood.

No, we haven't. We have no evidence that Braavos needs imports of wood (from the North) to meet its demands of lumber to build the ships they are needing. And there is even less reason to assume they have to import firewood. That would essentially put them at the mercy of foreigners, reducing them to a client state. Nobody would want to live in a place where you can freeze to death if there is a financial crisis.

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

We have evidence that the North has an abundance of wood. We have evidence that the North exports wood.

Can you give me a quote for that? We have evidence that the North produces wood but not that they export it to Essos or Braavos specifically. For all we know they could ship it to the Vale, the Iron Islands, or the West. Or they could sell it to other Northmen living in the North.

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Braavos is the closest Free City to the North. Supply and demand would dictate that a flourishing lumber trade exists between the two locations.

No, it wouldn't. Not without textual evidence.

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Again, don't over dramatize it, though. That doesn't mean that Braavos can't source wood from anywhere else. Wood can be found all over the world. It just means that the North is the closest, reliable source of large supplies of wood. So to buy 100 tons of wood from the North would be the most economically efficient means of achieving the equilibrium between supply and demand in this case. If, however, the North was suddenly "blockaded by giant kraken rising from the deep", or some such calamity, well, then Braavos would simply move to the next most economical source of the produce that they desire, and the equilibrium price between supply and demand would move slightly higher, (or perhaps significantly higher, depending on how expensive the new source turns out to be).

Well, it should be much more easy to cut down trees in the Braavosi hinterlands and then continue to take whatever wood they want from the Axe or some other place at the eastern coast of Essos. The Braavosi are an independent and secretive lot.

Again, there is no evidence that Braavos actually is dependent on wood imports.

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