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Lost. Can we talk about it? Just finished my first watch.


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1 hour ago, DunderMifflin said:

I think it's pretty impossible in the internet age to have a nice and tidy ending to any great serial. There are just so many people out there that it only takes like 10-20% of the viewership of a popular show to go online and rant about how shitty the ending was for it to officially be labeled a shitty ending.

I don't know...Breaking Bad's ending was pretty universally praised.  My only complaint with it was that it tied everything up a bit too neatly, but there's no denying that it was wildly entertaining and satisfying as a finale.  

It clearly can be done.  And there have been plenty of shows with solid endings even if they weren't on the level of The Shield of Breaking Bad.  The Wire comes to mind.  The last season was the weakest, but I thought the ending montage in the finale was very well done.  Justified was pretty good as well.  

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I know the writers imagined it a character driven show, and it was. The mysteries got away from them though and I think they fell too in love with how much the viewers loved it. They still never had a clear idea about what to do with a lot of the characters, though. Kate was a hot mess, Sayid was an interesting character, but they had him fall in love with Shannon because ...?

I loved Locke - loved loved him and they characterized him well. I was never satisfied with his story though because I was never sure what they meant to say with him. He was shown miracles - he could walk, the smoke monster spared him, Jacob talked to him, the gunshot would wasn't fatal because it passed through a non-existant kidney. He had some real reasons to believe and have faith. That makes him a dupe and a loser? Given's Locke's POV, who wouldn't have fallen for the manipulation of the man in black? IMO, I was let down by his story.

I like Jack's arc better - a cynical asshole who finally embraces his destiny and has faith in it, he just wasn't likable. So yeah, they did a pretty good job at characterization, but it felt uneven and all over the place a lot of the time, and a lot of the characters were flat out unlikable. I think they did Sawyer right and I liked everything about his storyline and arc, yes, even the sideways. Ben and Hurley were excellent.

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11 minutes ago, briantw said:

I don't know...Breaking Bad's ending was pretty universally praised.  My only complaint with it was that it tied everything up a bit too neatly, but there's no denying that it was wildly entertaining and satisfying as a finale.  

It clearly can be done.  And there have been plenty of shows with solid endings even if they weren't on the level of The Shield of Breaking Bad.  The Wire comes to mind.  The last season was the weakest, but I thought the ending montage in the finale was very well done.  Justified was pretty good as well.  

Never watched Breaking Bad but I do admit I haven't seen any sort of smear campaign going on against it ending like you see for a lot of great shows. 

And i count the Wire as a different era, we are coming up on a decade since it's. finale. I think that same ending would have more criticism today.

 

 

 

 

Concerning Locke, I thought him refusing to push the button marked the fate of his character.

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1 minute ago, DunderMifflin said:

Never watched Breaking Bad but I do admit I haven't seen any sort of smear campaign going on against it ending like you see for a lot of great shows. 

And i count the Wire as a different era, we are coming up on a decade since it's. finale. I think that same ending would have more criticism today.

Well, in the modern era, I can really only think of two shows that had absolutely awful endings: Dexter and Lost.  Dexter's was clearly, indisputably the worse of the two.  I've heard How I Met Your Mother's ending sucked too, but I never got into that one so I can't judge it one way or the other.  I also expect less from sitcom endings in general because they are rarely about the long-term story and more about living in the moment.  You don't really need an amazing, epic ending in a sitcom because they're rarely about setting something like that up.

Regardless, it's not as if people are going to crap on a show's ending no matter what.  Some shows just had shitty endings and were rightly criticized.  It's also worth noting that a lot of shows are canceled before their natural ending point, and so their endings are undoubtedly impacted by that.  That makes shows that end on their own terms and still shit the bed like Dexter and Lost stand out more.

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I'm just going by generalizations. I loved Lost's ending. I have nothing better to add but I know it got thoroughly trashed by fandom. The Sopranos ending which I liked also was trashed by fandom. 

The last seasons of Dexter were awful but I LOVED the final lumberjack scene. I thought that scene was a perfect ending. The rest of the episode was pretty shit but that scene was perfect imo. 

I'm unaware of anything Breaking Bad but it does seem like an example that contradicts my claim because I've never seen or heard anyone say anything bad about the ending.

 

 

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1 hour ago, DunderMifflin said:

I'm unaware of anything Breaking Bad but it does seem like an example that contradicts my claim because I've never seen or heard anyone say anything bad about the ending.

I could say some bad things about the final season overall. Mainly that they didn't have a target in mind when they showed Walt buying that machine gun, and the target they settled on was kinda "meh." But the last few episodes were really good so it's a minor complaint.

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2 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I could say some bad things about the final season overall. Mainly that they didn't have a target in mind when they showed Walt buying that machine gun, and the target they settled on was kinda "meh." But the last few episodes were really good so it's a minor complaint.

As I said above, my only real complaint about the finale was that it wrapped things up a bit too neatly, which made it satisfying on one hand but a tad bit disappointing on the other.  I much preferred the dirtier ending of The Shield where it felt like certain characters got what they deserved and no one really came out of it happy.  Still, Breaking Bad certainly has one of the best TV endings ever, and from a satisfaction standpoint it fully delivered. 

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11 hours ago, briantw said:

I think there's an argument that some shows are about the journey more than the destination.  I just don't think Lost was one of them.  You can't spend literally the entire series asking questions and then not answer half of them, and then pretend it was all about the journey and the characters.  No, Lost was all about the mysteries, and they just didn't resolve a lot of them adequately or satisfyingly. 

What questions were left unanswered? Specifically?

I take issue with the suggestion that "half" of the show's mysteries were unexplained. Aside from the nature of the Island itself (which I think would have sunk the show altogether if they'd answered it), I don't think there was really anything too major left unresolved.

Well, Locke and Richard's infinitely ageing watch does irritate me, I have to admit (Locke and Richard pass the watch back and forth but never close the loop, meaning that the watch is, from its own internal timeline, constantly getting old and will presumable disintegrate at some point, shattering the space/time continuum or something).

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Lost became a pop culture phenomenon not because of Jack, Sawyer, Kate, or Hurley, but because of all the mysteries that pulled you in and kept you questioning just what the fuck was going on.  It was one of the first shows to truly leverage the power of the internet to get people talking and have fans proposing wild theories constantly.

 

Absolutely not. The show became a major success because of the characters. The mysteries on the Island were seasoning on the mix, but if no-one gave a shit about Jack, Sawyer, Kate or Jin and Sun, the show would not have taken off. Plenty of other shows came out in Lost's train with fairly intriguing mysteries, but the only ones which stuck and lasted the course were other ones that presented engaging and interesting characters (like Fringe). Those that did not, like The Event, failed because the characters were inane bores.

For shows with good-to-great endings, I'd say that The WireRomeAvatar: The Last AirbenderLife on Mars/Ashes to Ashes, SpacedBabylon 5, Fringe and Deep Space Nine all had excellent endings and wrap-ups. Battlestar Galactica's was self-contradictary, nonsensical drivel. The American Life on Mars was awful. The X-Files was bad, but then it came back, so that didn't really count. I hear bad things about Dexter, but have never watched it. Other shows didn't really have bad endings, just disappointing ones because the show was cancelled (Deadwood, most notably).

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The only unresolved mystery I can think of for Lost is why was Walt special. "Don't open it" 

The only thing that might can explain it is when he returned to the show looking like a fully grown man it's implied he can talk to dead people like Hurley can. I guess that might be it. Still doesn't explain how the others knew about it and why they were doing tests on him.

Funny side note, the actor who played Walt is now a boy band rapper.

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Everyone's seen the actual final episode of Lost right? The New Man in Charge?

Good example of the "important mysteries being resolved in extra media" problem. But it does answer some lingering issues about DHARMA, the pallet drops, the Hurley bird (I still have no idea why people even thought that was a thing) and Walt.

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13 hours ago, Isis said:

I always think of it as being a character-driven show. Yes, there are the mysteries and questions but so much time is spent on the characters and their back stories, it's really all about them.

Completely agree. 

11 hours ago, briantw said:

I don't know...Breaking Bad's ending was pretty universally praised.  My only complaint with it was that it tied everything up a bit too neatly, but there's no denying that it was wildly entertaining and satisfying as a finale.  

It clearly can be done.  And there have been plenty of shows with solid endings even if they weren't on the level of The Shield of Breaking Bad.  The Wire comes to mind.  The last season was the weakest, but I thought the ending montage in the finale was very well done.  Justified was pretty good as well.  

Six Feet Under had the second best ending after The Shield, imo.

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16 hours ago, Werthead said:

Everyone's seen the actual final episode of Lost right? The New Man in Charge?

Good example of the "important mysteries being resolved in extra media" problem. But it does answer some lingering issues about DHARMA, the pallet drops, the Hurley bird (I still have no idea why people even thought that was a thing) and Walt.

I actually hadn't seen that and I think it's a good example of what we've been talking about. Yes, it answers a few questions, but not very satisfactorily. The brainwashing movie was a very WTF moment on the show. Not something I was all that interested in exploring because it was minor, but it definitely amped up the atmosphere and mystique. In the end though, it was just smoke and mirrors to elicit a reaction out of us like 'this show is so weird man, what the hell is going on?!' Does that explanation make any actual sense? It was a mind wipe? Not really and it just pays lip service to being an explanation.

I get that shows are driven by rating and stuff like this works. Personally I just felt like they relied on these cheap tricks too often to keep our interest ramped up. I felt tricked and felt stupid for having faith that they were writing a tighter show than they were. So yes, the mysteries got answers for the most part. We're they satisfying? A good percentage of them I'd say not by a long shot. A lot of that is probably on me and my expectations, but that's how I feel about Lost. A lot of really good things happening with that show, but ultimately cheapened by going for the easy thrill.

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2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

 I felt tricked and felt stupid for having faith that they were writing a tighter show than they were. So yes, the mysteries got answers for the most part. We're they satisfying? A good percentage of them I'd say not by a long shot. A lot of that is probably on me and my expectations, but that's how I feel about Lost. A lot of really good things happening with that show, but ultimately cheapened by going for the easy thrill.

I think this is the real problem for so many viewers.  The show caught eyeballs with a dramatic event/stunt opening, connected us with some good characters and storytelling, and then started piling on the mystery.  Lacking faith in the characters and storytelling alone, and knowing the opening event wears off, the show doubled-down on mystery for the long term hook. 

After a while, it was becoming increasingly obvious that there could never be a tight, satisfying explanation.  So either you continued to watch for the characters & story and the mental titillation of mysteries that would never be solved, or you quit early rather than be frustrated at unsolvable mystery or deus ex machina.  Too many viewers were not really honest with themselves and wanted it all, leading to disappointment.  

I forgot which season I stopped watching, perhaps late S4 or early S5.  For me, the writing was on the wall.  My wife watched and enjoyed through to the end because the lack of resolution for the mysteries was less important to her than resolving the character arcs and the story. 

In the early days, the madder the mystery twists, the more people talked it up and tuned in to the next episode.  The audience created the incentive to take it out of control.  Perhaps there's an implied contract that the writer won't introduce a mystery he can't satisfyingly solve, but at some point the audience has to acknowledge their own culpability.  It's like watching a soap opera and complaining that it's unrealistic and convoluted.  Enjoy it for what it is.  

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11 hours ago, Nictarion said:

Completely agree. 

Six Feet Under had the second best ending after The Shield, imo.

I haven't seen many of the shows mentioned (, but out of those I have, Six Feet Under and The Shield had the best finales by far.  Another excellent  one was Dollhouse. The Office UK Christmas special was also a satisfying ending to the show.

The finale of Lost was one of the mediocre ones (it was more that the entire last season was a disappointment). Battlestar Galactica was also pretty bad, but neither was in the utterly terrible department like that awful finale of Enterprise. Star Trek: DS9 had some amazing stuff, but also utter crap (Sisko and Dukat in the cave). Voyager had a really shitty finale, but it was never a very good show to begin with. Buffy finale was also a mixed bag, it had a lot of great moments, but also some real flaws that make it my least favorite Buffy season finale. Angel finale was mostly good, though I had some problems  with it, too. The Sopranos' controversial ending was OK, but nothinf mind-blowing. I don't think I was that blown away by Rome finale either. I don't remember much, but I know that I had a problem with the way they seemed to suddenly want us to root for Atia. Why? She was utterly despicable.

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I quit on Lost very early, I had a strong sense they had no idea what they were doing.

I appear to be in the minority though as I liked the end of BSG.  Six Feet Under finale was good, Breaking Bad though may be the best ever at least in terms of leaving the vast majority of the audience satisfied, plus the added bonus of badass science meets machine gun, what's not to like?  Have to mention Carnivale, though I guess that is no one's fault but HBO for pulling the plug and not really telling the showrunner.

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Quote

 

I quit on Lost very early, I had a strong sense they had no idea what they were doing.

I appear to be in the minority though as I liked the end of BSG

 

I think the sense on BSG that they had no idea what they were doing (especially after the Pegasus arc and especially after New Caprica) was far, far higher than it was on Lost.

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15 minutes ago, Werthead said:

 

I think the sense on BSG that they had no idea what they were doing (especially after the Pegasus arc and especially after New Caprica) was far, far higher than it was on Lost.

Well, at least with BSG,  Ron Moore always admitted in podcasts that they were making it up as they went along. 

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Right from the off, Lost always felt pretty much like a story about people encountering the numinous, the mystical. I mean, there was an empty coffin, a missing body, and a bloke called Christian. If there had been a neat explanation at the end of everything, I'd have been extremely surprised. It's a long time since I've watched the show, but I can't remember being disappointed by the finale. Not blown away by it, but not disappointed either. Honestly, by that point, I'd have watched Michael Emerson (Ben) and Terry O' Quinn (Locke/Shadow Monster) sit quietly in a room together and been pretty happy with it. 

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42 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Well, at least with BSG,  Ron Moore always admitted in podcasts that they were making it up as they went along. 

I think saying "They have a plan" in the title sequence of 53 episodes straight before quietly removing it and hoping people forget about it is a bit of a counter to that. Moore also said that they did actually have a fair bit of the plot planned out in advance because of the lengthy delay between the pilot and Season 1, and they had mapped out most of Season 1, the Kobol and even the Pegasus arcs before they got there.

Fairly obviously, they had no plan for after that and the morass of abandoned, nonsensical storylines (remember Cally and Tyrol's kid? Because the writers forgot about him, and they also forgot about Six getting pregnant by Tigh) multiplied significantly after that point.

It's actually the reverse of LostLost didn't have a hard and fast plan for the first 2 seasons, improvised reasonably well, and then developed a plan and stuck to it, even if it caused problems because that plan wasn't entirely compatible with what they'd outlined in the first two season. BSG had a plan for the first two seasons, then decided to improvise, at first reasonably well and then more catastrophically, until the whole thing collapsed under the weight of its own illogic. When when they came back to try to answer the questions raised in The Plan, it went really wrong.

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12 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

After a while, it was becoming increasingly obvious that there could never be a tight, satisfying explanation.  So either you continued to watch for the characters & story and the mental titillation of mysteries that would never be solved, or you quit early rather than be frustrated at unsolvable mystery or deus ex machina.  Too many viewers were not really honest with themselves and wanted it all, leading to disappointment. 

I think I was somewhere in the middle. I wasn't hung up on every little mystery, and I did like a lot of the characters, but it wasn't the main hook for me. It was a social phenomena. I enjoyed speculating about it online and often I would get together with friends to watch it. That was a big part of the draw for me.

Talking about this has reminded me how sour I went on the series, but I mostly enjoyed it as it was happening. It was the last half of the last season that I really started to become fully disillusioned. I had given the writers a lot of slack for little things because, as they had said, they knew where it was going, but without a timeline, it was difficult to pace. I also didn't mind that early inconsistencies with the mysteries existed because, hey, things evolve. I did believe them when they said they had a big picture outline. i did believe them when they said the island events were based in hard science. It was when they finally started to reveal these big picture ideas and they weren't answers at all but rather mystic bullshit that I turned on it.

I wonder if there is a correlation to liking the series and ending to liking the episode 'Across the Sea'? I hated it with a passion.

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