KarlDanski

Evil Daenerys?

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Does anyone think that Daenerys is going to end up becoming evil or "mad" by the end of the story? She's already shown mad king like traits in the story, and doesn't even know the true story about what Rhaegar, Mad King, and what Robert did. She plans on invading a war torn Seven Kingdoms with dragons, sellsword companies, freed slaves, Dothraki (TV show), Ironborn, and a disgraced knight (Poor Barristan). I'm not saying she's evil, but the forces she's using sounds like she'll be opposed by literally everyone, it sounds like she's leading a bunch of untrustworthy mercenaries, slaves who knew no other life, horse riding rapist warriors, and ship sailing rapist warriors. I don't know, but this makes me dislike her a little more.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, KarlDanski said:

Does anyone think that Daenerys is going to end up becoming evil or "mad" by the end of the story? She's already shown mad king like traits in the story, and doesn't even know the true story about what Rhaegar, Mad King, and what Robert did. She plans on invading a war torn Seven Kingdoms with dragons, sellsword companies, freed slaves, Dothraki (TV show), Ironborn, and a disgraced knight (Poor Barristan). I'm not saying she's evil, but the forces she's using sounds like she'll be opposed by literally everyone, it sounds like she's leading a bunch of untrustworthy mercenaries, slaves who knew no other life, horse riding rapist warriors, and ship sailing rapist warriors. I don't know, but this makes me dislike her a little more.

It's a constantly debated point, in my opinion. We all know GRRM is an intentional writer, so we know Targaryen madness is not just a one-off plot device. Some argue that she will either become mad or the people that do not support her will label her as such. Others argue GRRM is going to sneak the same kind of treatment on to Jon Snow if R+L=J turns out to be true in the books. I made a topic a while back asking if it was significant that no one observes Daenerys in present-tense, meaning that we never see her actions through the lense/bias of other people directly. It seems too suspicious to just ignore, but GRRM is full of surprises.

My argument is usually just that it'd be too unrealistic for her to swoop in on dragons to bloodlessly conquer and become some holy mother to the people like she has managed to do in the east. Things don't work that way in Westeros. Drawing from the historical Wars of the Roses, lords/magnates are usually more concerned with their own power than the good of the realm. To be fair, power equates to the protection and security of a family, so it is not an entirely evil thing to pursue. However, power passes from father to son and not all sons are as good or bad as their father, so it's all in constant flux.

Her conquest is a threat to power, especially to the houses that have come out on top during the War of the Five Kings. Inevitably, those that are being conquered will see her as evil, and she at least intends to conquer and already war-torn country. I personally find that a bit distasteful, but not unprecedented. Unless she swoops in with a different government system that elevates commoners to a middle class, the likelihood that she will contribute any lasting good is slim to null. Said government system would divert power from her throne though, so that's realistically unlikely. Conquering a feudalistic realm and leaving it as such when you are incapable of bearing any children is also an arbitrary action, if you ask me. Though it would not be uncharacteristic for her to miraculously become fertile again given how her storyline has developed thus far...

She's just as bad/good/arbitrary as any other member of the entitled nobility we've been introduced to. Her intentions are just as self-serving as anyone else's, whether it be a bid for power or just to make herself feel good.

Edited by Traverys

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1 hour ago, KarlDanski said:

Does anyone think that Daenerys is going to end up becoming evil or "mad" by the end of the story? She's already shown mad king like traits in the story, and doesn't even know the true story about what Rhaegar, Mad King, and what Robert did. She plans on invading a war torn Seven Kingdoms with dragons, sellsword companies, freed slaves, Dothraki (TV show), Ironborn, and a disgraced knight (Poor Barristan). I'm not saying she's evil, but the forces she's using sounds like she'll be opposed by literally everyone, it sounds like she's leading a bunch of untrustworthy mercenaries, slaves who knew no other life, horse riding rapist warriors, and ship sailing rapist warriors. I don't know, but this makes me dislike her a little more.

I think you are misunderstanding Dany's arc. She is  - so far - far away of invading Westeros, and given her new ascension at Vaes Dothrak becoming a political and religious figure for the Dothraki, plus her proclamation by the red priests, she will feel compelled to stay in Essos and finish slavery once for all.  Unless something makes her to come to Westeros and abandons some of her plans. This thing is likely to be Aegon sitting in the IT.

Because of the way of different events are occurring, Aegon will enjoy of the support of good part of the realm, particularly of any hidden Targaryen loyalists. And this will be her tragedy, she had always hoped to be welcomed in Westeros, instead she will not because as you point out she will come with a huge host of freedmen, dothraki, ironborn, sellswords and counseled by weird people, Marwin the mage, Moqorro and other red priests and over all that hated evil twisted little monkey demon, aka the Imp. Barristan, the only who can give her good press, will be dead by then. When the realm rejects her she will become mad.

Only after she turns north to defeat the Others, things may become different, but she will a controversial figure for years to come.

Regarding the Dothraki, there is some criticism regarding how GRRM wrote them. Besides Drogo, there is little personification in their characters and certainly their culture allow them more than 'being rapists and slavers'.

Daenerys by the way will be in a excellent position to change some cultural parameters of the Dothraki horde.

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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I think you are misunderstanding Dany's arc. She is  - so far - far away of invading Westeros, and given her new ascension at Vaes Dothrak becoming a political and religious figure for the Dothraki, plus her proclamation by the red priests, she will feel compelled to stay in Essos and finish slavery once for all.  Unless something makes her to come to Westeros and abandons some of her plans. This thing is likely to be Aegon sitting in the IT.

Because of the way of different events are occurring, Aegon will enjoy of the support of good part of the realm, particularly of any hidden Targaryen loyalists. And this will be her tragedy, she had always hoped to be welcomed in Westeros, instead she will not because as you point out she will come with a huge host of freedmen, dothraki, ironborn, sellswords and counseled by weird people, Marwin the mage, Moqorro and other red priests and over all that hated evil twisted little monkey demon, aka the Imp. Barristan, the only who can give her good press, will be dead by then. When the realm rejects her she will become mad.

Only after she turns north to defeat the Others, things may become different, but she will a controversial figure for years to come.

Regarding the Dothraki, there is some criticism regarding how GRRM wrote them. Besides Drogo, there is little personification in their characters and certainly their culture allow them more than 'being rapists and slavers'.

Daenerys by the way will be in a excellent position to change some cultural parameters of the Dothraki horde.

There's definitely a point here. Stannis decides to press his claim to the throne by protecting the realm from the Others. The logic is he'll declare himself king and win support by performing the duty of a true monarch:  maintaining the protection and safety of the realm.

As we know the relation of fire to the Others, and that dragons are understood to be fire made flesh, this could be the avenue she could take to "conquer" the seven kingdoms without the typical bloodshed necessary. Assuming it to be a simple or straightforward campaign, people will practically thrust her onto the throne. However, it seems a little too simple for GRRM, but that is only a personal opinion.

Edited by Traverys

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She'll be in a tough position if (f)Aegon succeeds 

IF Aegon no matter who his real father is can take the IT and bring some sort of peace and stability to the realm and Dany challenges his claim she's look like a villain to most of Westeros. Aegon will be heralded as the son of the kind, gentle Prince Rhaegar and Dany will be thought of as the Mad King's daughter trying to take her nephew's rightful seat with foreign invaders. 

 

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1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

She'll be in a tough position if (f)Aegon succeeds 

IF Aegon no matter who his real father is can take the IT and bring some sort of peace and stability to the realm and Dany challenges his claim she's look like a villain to most of Westeros. Aegon will be heralded as the son of the kind, gentle Prince Rhaegar and Dany will be thought of as the Mad King's daughter trying to take her nephew's rightful seat with foreign invaders. 

 

I don't think so. FAegon and co want Dany as Queen, they need her to legitimise their claim to the throne. It's far too easy to dismiss fAegon as, well a fake, but if Dany, a known and unquestioned Targaryen, takes him as her husband, then his claim is so much stronger. The question is who will be wielding power in such an arrangement, but something could be negotiated.

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We see in Dance with Dragons there are already rumors that she is mad and cruel (which are not real as we have seen from her POV). The same will happen in Westeros: she will lead an army of foreigners, former slaves and reavers to take a war-torn kingdom, she will be a kinslayer (Aegon) who destroyed Slaver's Bay and Volantis (that will happen in Winds of Winter) and now wants to do the same to Westeros. Of course she will not be really a villain and it does not serve her arc.IMO, Daenerys will not become a mad queen (like Aerys II, Maegor I, Aerion Brightflame, etc) but also not a loved Targaryen (like Daeron II, Rhaegar and Alysanne).

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3 minutes ago, 1000th Lord Commander said:

I don't think so. FAegon and co want Dany as Queen, they need her to legitimise their claim to the throne. It's far too easy to dismiss fAegon as, well a fake, but if Dany, a known and unquestioned Targaryen, takes him as her husband, then his claim is so much stronger. The question is who will be wielding power in such an arrangement, but something could be negotiated.

 

Aegon is already in Westeros fighting to win the Crown and Dany is in the middle of the Dothraki see. If Dany stays in Essos for an extended period of time (f)Aegon won't be able to wait for her forever. If Jon Con feels like he needs Dorne to take the Throne and Aegon agrees he might have to marry Arianne to get their spears. Like I said IF (f) Aegon takes the Iron Throne without Dany and the nobles and small folk alike support his claim he won't need a marriage to Dany to strengthen his claim, he'll already be King of Westeros. 

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Posted (edited)

It's her arc to be brought to the brink of the question of if she is mad or not. It will manifest itself as evil but rather as an unjust hypocritical lust for power. It will happen like this.

Aegon is an imposter, the mummer's dragon, and therefor has no rightful claim to her throne. So despite being a beloved king capable of restoring the realm to order and ruling justly, she will war him and she will kill him.

They will say she did it because she's mad for power, that she is her father come again. They already say she killed her brother because he was in line before her, her husband for his khalasaar, they'll say she killed her second husband too and then they'll say she killed Aegon for the same reasons. She will not care, she knows the truth of it and believes herself just in reclaiming her birth right.

Then she'll learn about Jon, and she'll believe him to be legitimate and therefor the rightful Targaryen king. And then she faces the choice. Either she denies Jon is her king, which will prove them all correct, that she is a hypocrite and unjustly mad for power, the one thing she fears. Or bend the knee.

Edited by chrisdaw

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5 hours ago, Traverys said:

It's a constantly debated point, in my opinion. We all know GRRM is an intentional writer, so we know Targaryen madness is not just a one-off plot device. Some argue that she will either become mad or the people that do not support her will label her as such. Others argue GRRM is going to sneak the same kind of treatment on to Jon Snow if R+L=J turns out to be true in the books. I made a topic a while back asking if it was significant that no one observes Daenerys in present-tense, meaning that we never see her actions through the lense/bias of other people directly. It seems too suspicious to just ignore, but GRRM is full of surprises.

Interesting thread, I'll give it a look. I think this is both intentional, but there also is some lack of attention to the Essosi arc by GRRM. If I have something to say, I comment in that thread.

3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Aegon is already in Westeros fighting to win the Crown and Dany is in the middle of the Dothraki see. If Dany stays in Essos for an extended period of time (f)Aegon won't be able to wait for her forever. If Jon Con feels like he needs Dorne to take the Throne and Aegon agrees he might have to marry Arianne to get their spears. Like I said IF (f) Aegon takes the Iron Throne without Dany and the nobles and small folk alike support his claim he won't need a marriage to Dany to strengthen his claim, he'll already be King of Westeros. 

Indeed. Although JonCon wants to have Dany as queen, the prospect will look less likely as the time passes. Arianne will probably try to push Aegon into a marriage alliance, otherwise no 'Dragon' word will be sent to the Dornish armies. Varys might try to kill Tommen to free Margaery and get the Reach, and maybe even Sansa will become involved. At some point the rumors of the death of the Dragon Queen will reach Westeros too.

 

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6 hours ago, Traverys said:

It's a constantly debated point, in my opinion. We all know GRRM is an intentional writer, so we know Targaryen madness is not just a one-off plot device. Some argue that she will either become mad or the people that do not support her will label her as such. Others argue GRRM is going to sneak the same kind of treatment on to Jon Snow if R+L=J turns out to be true in the books. I made a topic a while back asking if it was significant that no one observes Daenerys in present-tense, meaning that we never see her actions through the lense/bias of other people directly. It seems too suspicious to just ignore, but GRRM is full of surprises.

My argument is usually just that it'd be too unrealistic for her to swoop in on dragons to bloodlessly conquer and become some holy mother to the people like she has managed to do in the east. Things don't work that way in Westeros. Drawing from the historical Wars of the Roses, lords/magnates are usually more concerned with their own power than the good of the realm. To be fair, power equates to the protection and security of a family, so it is not an entirely evil thing to pursue. However, power passes from father to son and not all sons are as good or bad as their father, so it's all in constant flux.

Her conquest is a threat to power, especially to the houses that have come out on top during the War of the Five Kings. Inevitably, those that are being conquered will see her as evil, and she at least intends to conquer and already war-torn country. I personally find that a bit distasteful, but not unprecedented. Unless she swoops in with a different government system that elevates commoners to a middle class, the likelihood that she will contribute any lasting good is slim to null. Said government system would divert power from her throne though, so that's realistically unlikely. Conquering a feudalistic realm and leaving it as such when you are incapable of bearing any children is also an arbitrary action, if you ask me. Though it would not be uncharacteristic for her to miraculously become fertile again given how her storyline has developed thus far...

She's just as bad/good/arbitrary as any other member of the entitled nobility we've been introduced to. Her intentions are just as self-serving as anyone else's, whether it be a bid for power or just to make herself feel good.

 

What are Illyrio ,Jorah , Barristan and tyrion and Quentyn and people we see from volantis ..if not third persons who gets to see dany and talk about her and have a opinion 

Grrm was once asked the same question by Ran himself I guess and for which GRrM answered that the story is about dany and not the essos ..

 

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7 hours ago, KarlDanski said:

Does anyone think that Daenerys is going to end up becoming evil or "mad" by the end of the story? She's already shown mad king like traits in the story, and doesn't even know the true story about what Rhaegar, Mad King, and what Robert did. She plans on invading a war torn Seven Kingdoms with dragons, sellsword companies, freed slaves, Dothraki (TV show), Ironborn, and a disgraced knight (Poor Barristan). I'm not saying she's evil, but the forces she's using sounds like she'll be opposed by literally everyone, it sounds like she's leading a bunch of untrustworthy mercenaries, slaves who knew no other life, horse riding rapist warriors, and ship sailing rapist warriors. I don't know, but this makes me dislike her a little more.

I don't think that we'll get a definitive answer to that question.

She's likely to do good things like freeing slaves, and to play a major role in the fight against the Others.

And, she's likely to do cruel and ruthless things (such as invading Western Essos,  sacking cities and so on.)

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32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don't think that we'll get a definitive answer to that question.

She's likely to do good things like freeing slaves, and to play a major role in the fight against the Others.

And, she's likely to do cruel and ruthless things (such as invading Western Essos,  sacking cities and so on.)

What makes you think she will invade Western Essos? Does she even have resources for that? Yes, she has business in Volantis but apart from that she isn't interested in sacking cities for giggles. She abhors rape. Do you think she would just let her horde run over? How different will she be if she becomes the same kind of person Drogo was? I think she will become more similar to Aegon the conqueror than Drogo.

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8 hours ago, KarlDanski said:

Does anyone think that Daenerys is going to end up becoming evil or "mad" by the end of the story? She's already shown mad king like traits in the story, and doesn't even know the true story about what Rhaegar, Mad King, and what Robert did. She plans on invading a war torn Seven Kingdoms with dragons, sellsword companies, freed slaves, Dothraki (TV show), Ironborn, and a disgraced knight (Poor Barristan). I'm not saying she's evil, but the forces she's using sounds like she'll be opposed by literally everyone, it sounds like she's leading a bunch of untrustworthy mercenaries, slaves who knew no other life, horse riding rapist warriors, and ship sailing rapist warriors. I don't know, but this makes me dislike her a little more

Evil depends on the perspective. There are already people who sympathize with slavers consider her evil.

But madness? It is the conflict within her heart. She would get a negative PR for sure and at the same time doubts about her own sanity will pull her away from doing terrible things. I think she will initially be despised then she will win back the trust of the people which will be a different type of conquest.

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17 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

What makes you think she will invade Western Essos? Does she even have resources for that? Yes, she has business in Volantis but apart from that she isn't interested in sacking cities for giggles. She abhors rape. Do you think she would just let her horde run over? How different will she be if she becomes the same kind of person Drogo was? I think she will become more similar to Aegon the conqueror than Drogo.

In part, you answer your own question.  She will have unfinished business in Volantis.  And Ser Barristan has promised the Tattered Prince Pentos.  But, if, as I think most of us assume, she unites all, or a large proportion of, the Dothraki behind her,  those two cities and their territories will be the likely targets.

Most commanders in a medieval world would not sack castles, towns, and cities for fun.  They would sack those that offered resistance, in order to persuade others to surrender.  Exemplary massacres can break an opponent's will to resist, while ravaging the countryside harms their ability to feed themselves, while supplying one's own men.

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

In part, you answer your own question.  She will have unfinished business in Volantis.  And Ser Barristan has promised the Tattered Prince Pentos.  But, if, as I think most of us assume, she unites all, or a large proportion of, the Dothraki behind her,  those two cities and their territories will be the likely targets.

Most commanders in a medieval world would not sack castles, towns, and cities for fun.  They would sack those that offered resistance, in order to persuade others to surrender.  Exemplary massacres can break an opponent's will to resist, while ravaging the countryside harms their ability to feed themselves, while supplying one's own 

Ok, yes. Sacking is done by armies to make them enemies submit to them. But what would she gain by sacking Western Essos? Other than Volantis which would get a slave revolt and then some dragonfire why she has to sack Myr or Tyrosh? For Pentos, I don't think she will sack it. If she sacked Pentos just because she hates Illyrio she becomes straight up villain which wouldn't be the case. Free cities would pay loads and loads of tributes to save their asses if she could unite the Dothraki. I don't think any sacking will be involved. Dany is no khal to conform to Dothraki ways. 

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Will she be traditionally evil as the new villain? No. 

Will she turn mad like her father? She has  already started that turn.

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I like Daeneris. But I think the author prepared for her not the happiest end. Either she will die heroically, or become insane.:mellow:

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17 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Interesting thread, I'll give it a look. I think this is both intentional, but there also is some lack of attention to the Essosi arc by GRRM. If I have something to say, I comment in that thread.

Indeed. Although JonCon wants to have Dany as queen, the prospect will look less likely as the time passes. Arianne will probably try to push Aegon into a marriage alliance, otherwise no 'Dragon' word will be sent to the Dornish armies. Varys might try to kill Tommen to free Margaery and get the Reach, and maybe even Sansa will become involved. At some point the rumors of the death of the Dragon Queen will reach Westeros too.

 

Good point. 

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22 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Aegon is already in Westeros fighting to win the Crown and Dany is in the middle of the Dothraki see. If Dany stays in Essos for an extended period of time (f)Aegon won't be able to wait for her forever. If Jon Con feels like he needs Dorne to take the Throne and Aegon agrees he might have to marry Arianne to get their spears. Like I said IF (f) Aegon takes the Iron Throne without Dany and the nobles and small folk alike support his claim he won't need a marriage to Dany to strengthen his claim, he'll already be King of Westeros. 

I think that's where the plot is heading. After Tyrion's pep talk, YG is in the mindset that he could gain power without Dany's help. A few easy victories later, he'll decide he won't even need Dany to secure his place on the throne, just an alliance from Dorne. 

Where my opinions diverge is in the events that follow. I think Aegon will be able to gather a lot of support, but without a marriage to Dany, people will continue to doubt his legitimacy. We've already seen a hint of this in the the ADWD epilogue. He'll likely not have unanimous support, and Dany won't be friendless. I won't make predictions on who'll be on whose side, though. There's too many unknowns - the Tyrells, for example.

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